45-70 for dangerous game?

[Rafiki]

Are you saying the 375 is adequate? For what, Wharf Rats? Really? I would not even consider a 375 for anything.

This is really killing my enthusiasm.

I have just the bullet for that mission....... HEHH HEH......

You must have a bullet for the now severely maligned 375 H&H for Cape Buffalo at 50yrds or less, open sights, no sticks (hate those things); that's the mission.

 

[degoins]

Opps..... Busted.... Ok it was a 405 CEB .500 caliber solid at 2120 fps...........
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I do love a traditional type lever gun, reality is, lever guns only account for far less than 5% of my time in the field. Most all of my shooting has been done with Bolt Guns, and 85-90% of those have been 458 caliber +.......... I also like single shots, 1885 and Ruger #1s, I also like semi guns as well, the working kind. I like handguns, 45 ACP and 45 Colt............. I like many sorts of firearms and have been shooting a long time...........The only thing I don't care much for is shotguns and double rifles.......

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Are you saying the 375 is adequate? For what, Wharf Rats? Really? I would not even consider a 375 for anything. I take it you are not a shooter or a firearms enthusiast. This is of course an assumption on my part based on your comments. This is not an insult, so please do not take it that way. Many of us are firearms enthusiast, I like all sorts of shooting and have been involved in shooting sports all my life. Many here like Double Rifles, I personally do not care for them at all. They also have serious limitations in my opinion, and I do have a lot of experience with them on the range and in the lab. Not my thing. Some people only care about semi guns, well I love my semi guns, they have a purpose. Some people don't care about fine bolt guns, like Winchester M70s, I love a Winchester M70, so much so, I would not go to the field with any other bolt gun, if it did not say Winchester M70 on it, it stays at home. Many of us like different calibers and cartridges, sometimes it is because of the platform, we like the lever guns, but cartridges are limited, and even the lever gun is limited as well...... Double rifles have many of the same limitations as well. 375 is seriously caliber deficient, but some people worship the stupid thing.......... many self defense people claim that a shot gun is the best home defense, others want short rifles, or handguns.......... Some people drive Pickup trucks, others some sort of car.... I drive Trucks! HEH....... Raptors at that. So its personal choice, Lever guns are seriously an American thing, many of us grew up watching westerns on TV, where the mightly lever gun tamed the Western frontier....... maybe its that.... some of you read too many African Hunting books, where the mighty Double Rifle saves the day, and the 375 can slay T'Rex........... So there..............But, again, I love lever guns, but they have accounted for less than 5% of my time in the field, most of that has been with a Winchester M70 in .458 caliber to .500 caliber........ I have also hunted with handguns and single shot rifles.......

I happen to not care for sticks and bows either, but some people like that, have at it. I have heard of people chasing pigs down and stabbing them as well, not for me, however my oldest son did that, I was sure there was something bad wrong with him........

I have just the bullet for that mission....... HEHH HEH......

Wharf Rats.......LOL

 

[raamw]

A few years back I shot a large American Bison (Buffalo) with my Marlin 1895 with hard cast 405 Lead at the historical velocity of 1300FPS. The first shot at about 100yds slight angle forward behind the rib center of mass , no effect, 2nd shot broadside 3/4 up from the back side of front leg, bull shuttered took one step an dropped no follow up shot. The bulled was skinned gutted de legged and head removed, at the butcher shop carcass weight was 854 pound, guide figured live weight would be twice so around 1700 pounds

 

[F. Vaccaro]

A few years back I shot a large American Bison (Buffalo) with my Marlin 1895 with hard cast 405 Lead at the historical velocity of 1300FPS. The first shot at about 100yds slight angle forward behind the rib center of mass , no effect, 2nd shot broadside 3/4 up from the back side of front leg, bull shuttered took one step an dropped no follow up shot. The bulled was skinned gutted de legged and head removed, at the butcher shop carcass weight was 854 pound, guide figured live weight would be twice so around 1700 pounds

Did either bullet pass through.
Thanks.

 

[TOBY458]

This is really killing my enthusiasm.


You must have a bullet for the now severely maligned 375 H&H for Cape Buffalo at 50yrds or less, open sights, no sticks (hate those things); that's the mission.

You will never get a positive response from Michael regarding the 375. So give up now! LOL!
But I’ve had good results on a number of buffalo, both African and Australian, with 300gr Barnes TSX. The TSX has always given excellent penetration and quick kills on the buffalo I’ve taken. Of course a 416 or 458 will work better, but shot placement still needs to be good, as with any caliber.

 

[raamw]

Did either bullet pass through.
Thanks.

neither bullet fully penetrated, one was just under the hide on the opposite side My hunting buddy used a Browning BAR 30-06 with factory 180 grain Fail safe, he shot a similar size bison you could see the bullet hit the ground behind the animal, no effect what so ever it joined the herd which had wandered away and at about 200 yds or so just laid down

 

[Rafiki]

neither bullet fully penetrated, one was just under the hide on the opposite side My hunting buddy used a Browning BAR 30-06 with factory 180 grain Fail safe, he shot a similar size bison you could see the bullet hit the ground behind the animal, no effect what so ever it joined the herd which had wandered away and at about 200 yds or so just laid down
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Nice. Where is this. I've taken 3 and may be looking for another; depends on how Africa pans out this year.

 

[michael458]

This is really killing my enthusiasm.

Excellent. LOL

You must have a bullet for the now severely maligned 375 H&H for Cape Buffalo at 50yrds or less, open sights, no sticks (hate those things); that's the mission.

I never really paid much attention to trying to do any better with bullet tech and 375, I didn't work with any BB guns either, figured it was a waste of time to try and enhance inadequate calibers and cartridges. I spent more time on 223........ and .458 to .500............. all more worthwhile projects.....

You will never get a positive response from Michael regarding the 375.

Yep, correct...........

Of course a 416 or 458 will work better

Yep, correct again......... why waste time with less...........Magic begins at .458................

My hunting buddy used a Browning BAR 30-06 with factory 180 grain Fail safe, he shot a similar size bison you could see the bullet hit the ground behind the animal, no effect what so ever it joined the herd which had wandered away and at about 200 yds or so just laid down

I have heard and seen same thing when people shoot buffalo with 375s............

 

[raamw]

Nice. Where is this. I've taken 3 and may be looking for another; depends on how Africa pans out this year.

Flying D Ranch owned by Ted turner 200 square mile property NW of Yellowstone. Absolutely beautiful peace of property he placed into a conservatory trust so it can't be split up and sold

 

[Rafiki]

Flying D Ranch owned by Ted turner 200 square mile property NW of Yellowstone. Absolutely beautiful peace of property he placed into a conservatory trust so it can't be split up and sold

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Henry McCann]

michael458 your posts are too filled with common sense and experience. Thanks for your posts!

I'm about 15 years behind bullet technology. I learned a great deal.

 

[raamw]

Thanks, I'll look into it.

He owns a couple million acres out west up to 600,000acres has buffalo on most and these are managed herds meaning he culls unproductive female old dagga bulls which serve no purpose to the herd going up to 2500 pounds but only good for hamburger. H e then limits juvenile bulls since they injure most calves and herd bulls. The one I took was a trophy bull with a crooked horn so considered a juvenile This was my buddies Bison 3 shots in the area of the heart, no reaction to the bullets but you could see the streams of blood shooting out of the bullet holes

 

[Rafiki]

He owns a couple million acres out west up to 600,000acres has buffalo on most and these are managed herds meaning he culls unproductive female old dagga bulls which serve no purpose to the herd going up to 2500 pounds but only good for hamburger. H e then limits juvenile bulls since they injure most calves and herd bulls. The one I took was a trophy bull with a crooked horn so considered a juvenile This was my buddies Bison 3 shots in the area of the heart, no reaction to the bullets but you could see the streams of blood shooting out of the bullet holes

Yeah, many people don't realize how big an tough bison are. The first one I took absorbed 4, 45-90's right in the "black" and kept on strolling with the herd, finally fell over. My mistake was loading them like a 458 Win Mag with Hornady Interlocks. Went to Paper Patch after that with much better results on 2 more.

 

[358 Norma]

I've not hunted Cape Buffalo yet, I hope to remedy that in June. The one thing I can add is that in my experience hunting here in the United States has taught me "If you have to ask yourself if it's enough gun then it's probably not enough gun"! The decision is up to the individual but I can tell you for what a Cape buffalo hunt cost why take a chance and leave any room for doubt!

 

[michael458]

michael458 your posts are too filled with common sense and experience. Thanks for your posts!

I'm about 15 years behind bullet technology. I learned a great deal.

Thank you Henry, I am pleased that you got something out of it, no thanks needed nor required. Congratulations on your positive learning curve, so many are not able to achieve that goal, and still hang on to the Same Old Same............... You can put Conventional on the Endangered Species List. Same one as Round Nose Solids...............

The decision is up to the individual but I can tell you for what a Cape buffalo hunt cost why take a chance and leave any room for doubt!

Indeed, there is Wisdom in these words in many ways. This goes double for a hunter that is not a shooter, and or also a serious student of Hand Loading. There is a big difference in Hand Loading and Reloading........... we reload handgun cartridges, we Hand Load serious Rifle Cartridges.......... some of us "Hand Load Serious Handgun Cartridges as well"..... LOL.......... But for sure, a 45/70 would be a shooter and Hand Loaders cartridge and not undertaken by less than. Although I do understand that some ammo manufacturers are now adopting serious bullets for many of these cartridges and that will be a boost for many. My first buffalo was 458 Winchester. And out of probably 125-150 total now, including many Aussie buffalo, there were only a small fraction of those with lever guns of any caliber. Some with rat calibers like 9.3 and 416, but not many, most all with .458 to .500. As life moves forward I have helped several Shooters with loads and bullet recommendations to allow them to be successful with 45/70 if determined, and yes, they were all successful in their endeavors.

Proper Bullet Tech has changed many things the last few years, and all for the Positive..... and our success in the field as hunters/shooters........... We just have to learn to embrace these advances.

 

[raamw]

Is a bison as dangerous as a cape? General rule no but again Bison are generally hunted on grass lands in the open where a Cape is generally in the thick stuff. I have never hunted cape but I would think it is for safety from the big predators When I was hunting Bison the guide warned me that Bison can and will get aggressive if they feel threatened especially if wolves where harassing them, he was very careful on their body language when we where approaching again you have no cover. After I dropped by bull the herd got agitated from the smell of blood so we couldn't approach until the ranch dove a couple of pick ups around to surround him. A couple of Juvenile bulls started horning the dead bull actually tossing the carcass around again this bull was 1700 pounds.
Would I use a a 45-70 on cape, I would say no not enough knock down power that can be depended on plus you need a heavy well constructed bullet for maximum penetration especially in a straigh on charge. What I found hard to believe was how a bison' skull was constructed much thinner than a Moose and a second skull structure containing the brains with a honey cone cellular structure between the two. My Moose had a skull thickness of at least 1" I recall trying to separate the antlers from the skull with an Axe which bounced off. I also had the same experience with a muskox.

 

[HankBuck]

21 pages of FUN................ What now? Death by Lever gun.... of course we all know these cartridges won't work .........

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Now this was pretty damn dangerous....... COLD....... it was minus 30 degrees, not wind chill either.......And, while we were taking photos this bugger came back to life. No Crap Buckwheat, its true, I had filled him full of holes too, we put him in position for photos, we were standing behind him, he was stone cold dead, UNTIL HE STARTED BREATHING AGAIN....... Yes, its the truth, so everyone jumped out of the way, I had reloaded the 1886, I levered a cartridge in, and put some more holes in him at point blank....... I reckon he finally dies......... LOL

View attachment 590407

I thought it was pretty good fun, so I shot another one..............

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This one was not near as much fun, only 3 rounds and he did not come back as a Zombie Bison....


I reckon if this one would have run over you it would have hurt a good bit too, Dangerous? Well...

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I made a mistake, I thought this was an elephant to begin with........

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This was perhaps one of the greatest battles ever with a buffalo, this one was a Warrior First Class....He did not want to quit the battle, even down, and full of holes, he rolled over to face me one last time............

View attachment 590409

And the charging killer of a Bleesbok, last but not least.......

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Lever guns and Lever Cartridges....... all good....... but done way more with bolt guns..........

Some great photos and nice trophy’s…you have a nice “theme” you follow and good examples of Lever Action collection. What calibers did you use? Also liked your dry ground Cougar (although a .22LR could work on most U.S. Cats)

 

[Henry McCann]

I found this thread when someone on 24 Hour Campfire posted a link. After reading all 22 pages I joined. My first post was to acknowledge all I learned from michael458's posts and now my second post is just to say what fun it has been to find this site. I have much to learn.

 

[michael458]

What calibers did you use? Also liked your dry ground Cougar (although a .22LR could work on most U.S. Cats)

The 1886s and Marlins were 45/70, the M71 is a 50 B&M Alaskan, the short M94 is a 45 Colt and yes, the Cougar was a Legendary Frontiersman in 38/55....... No, it is not .375 caliber, more like .378...... and it is only adequate for large wharf rats, and why I had to shoot the cat dead between the eyes. I learned to do this with lesser calibers from @TOBY458 Mother, she does the same thing with rats and such, head shots only......... I liked the rifle and it was a birthday present, so I wanted to use it in the field on something. I have also shot Cougar with 45 Colt and 45 ACP handguns........ I will save those stories for the next thread that comes along...."Is 45 ACP enough for Buffalo"........ HEHHEH...........

 

[HankBuck]

The 1886s and Marlins were 45/70, the M71 is a 50 B&M Alaskan, the short M94 is a 45 Colt and yes, the Cougar was a Legendary Frontiersman in 38/55....... No, it is not .375 caliber, more like .378...... and it is only adequate for large wharf rats, and why I had to shoot the cat dead between the eyes. I learned to do this with lesser calibers from @TOBY458 Mother, she does the same thing with rats and such, head shots only......... I liked the rifle and it was a birthday present, so I wanted to use it in the field on something. I have also shot Cougar with 45 Colt and 45 ACP handguns........ I will save those stories for the next thread that comes along...."Is 45 ACP enough for Buffalo"........ HEHHEH...........

Michael458: at least you got a Cat - and with a classic rifle/caliber….that makes that Cat a great story