416 Rigby vs 458 WinMag a civil discussion

[Jack Stevens]

The way Kevin Robertson puts it is "the 404 did all the work, and the 416 Rigby got all the glory." Many/most African conservation officers were issued 404 Jeffery.

Correct.

The usual theory with respect to its widespread use by the indigenous workers employed by African game departments is that the rifles were affordable because Jeffrey “had released the cartridge to the trade,” meaning anyone could make a .404-chambered rifle. That’s as opposed to the pricey proprietary DGR rifles of the day, like those from Rigby and Westley Richards.

While partly true, as well as that .404 ammo was generally cheaper (back then), it was the .404’s actual ballistics out of real-world rifle barrels that made it immensely popular. In the typical magazine rifle, the .404 imparted the mildest felt-recoil of any of the .400-class cartridges then available, and so skinny Africa game-dept employees could shoot it accurately, under stress, without flinching. No worse than a .375 H&H firing a .300grn load.

Folks like to quote “2150fps” as the defacto standard velocity for .404 ammo with a 400grn/.423” dia bullet, but that was never the case in the field from factory production barrels. The difference is because Jeffrey, Kynoch, et. al, used factory test-barrel fixtures of 26”-28” in length to derive “box-flap” velocity rather than real-world .404 rifle barrels which tended to be 22”, 23”, or 24” in length.

Kynoch is a good example … For their 400grn .404 ammo they list a m.v. of 2125fps as derived from a 28” factory test barrel. From a 24” rifle barrel, the given velocity is 1900fps. In other words, the mild recoil and shootability of .404 Jeff rifles is because actual m.v. in the field ranged from 1900fps to maybe 2100fps as a maximum. My own personal AHR-built .404J sports a 23” Douglas barrel. What muzzle velocity would that same Kynoch ammo make from that barrel?

Yet, with a 400grn bullet, the cartridge still killed all the big dangerous stuff, which led to Taylor’s famous observation that “THE elephant gun” was always a reference to Jeffrey’s .404 and to nothing else.

The .404 Jeffrey

Calibre Description and SpecificationsThe .404 Jeffery is a large calibre rimless bottleneck cartridge that was originally designed with the dangerous game of A

africanxmag.com

 

[Frederik]

I believe those 450gr 458WM numbers are off since Barnes advertises their 450gr load at 2,240 fps producing 5,015 ft-lbs.

Also, although i'm sure that the 416 could be reloaded for 450gr @ 2,300 fps, all the 450gr factory loads i've seen are doing 2,100 fps - 2,150 fps.

I was using reloading data not factory advertised loads that online calculator might be off nut I suspiect more that for advertising puposes they push the numbers a bit.

 

[Frederik]

So for 404J - you would go with NF 400 at 2300 or 430 gr at 2150? Or Hammer 400 gr?

Ele is well north of my budget, so thinking strictly for buffalo.

For buffalo 400gr is good enough I was using they 450gr bullet in 416 to show that it is a good performer.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I was actually listening to Robertson and John McAdams discussing exclusively 40 cals recently. Robertson pointed out that a 430 or 450 gr bullet in 416 has a higher SD than a 500 gr 458, though at 2150 fps, it does give up some ground on energy to 458.

Ep 300: 40 Caliber Safari Cartridges With Kevin Robertson

Apple | Google | iHeart | Pandora | Spotify

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

Did you listen to the recent episode on the >50 cals? Aside from the 500NE, 500J and 505 Gibbs he didn't see much practical utility in the other big thumpers.

 

[sgt_zim]

Did you listen to the recent episode on the >50 cals? Aside from the 500NE, 500J and 505 Gibbs he didn't see much practical utility in the other big thumpers.

Yeah, the missus and I were listening to that podcast between Houston and Baton Rouge. Even she, after listening to the way he described some of them, was like "wtf would anybody want something like that?"

 

[Northern Shooter]

Also interesting to note that Dr. Robertson couldnt recall a single example during his time PH'ing in Africa actually seeing one of those cartridges (.577 T-Rex, 600 Overkill etc) used on game.

 

[1dirthawker]

We have also not confirmed anything about effect on animals. All we have is a bunch of guys offering opinions based on the opinions of those who have gone before us. I am fine with that, but it's much more "informed speculation" than proven fact.

my question to you is:

how would you prove it and make it a proven fact on a living creature (buff, elephant, hippo, etc)?

@michael458 has given his rather "informed speculation" regarding the 458 vs 416 impacting DG as have others. he and others thinks the larger caliber leave more of an impression on the DG that receives the larger cal bullet. can you "prove" that theory/opinion is wrong?

 

[Creigh]

Folks like to quote “2150fps” as the defacto standard velocity for .404 ammo with a 400grn/.423” dia bullet, but that was never the case in the field from factory production barrels. The difference is because Jeffrey, Kynoch, et. al, used factory test-barrel fixtures of 26”-28” in length to derive “box-flap” velocity rather than real-world .404 rifle barrels which tended to be 22”, 23”, or 24” in length.

Good point here although I'd like to believe powders have come a wayz since then. Even so I've seen guys on here push to 84g charge weight for figures over 2200 fps, where the first signs of pressure show. I assume those are crono figures. I personally wouldn't push it there but it's good to know the mechanical limit.

 

[Green Chile]

From a practical perspective, any PH in Africa would be happy to see a client show up for buff or ele with any 416 or 458, a good soft or solid depending on the game, and the ability to shoot it without being over gunned. If you do that and can walk, you will probably take your DG.

 

[M70375!]

Hi CZDiesel,

I have no experience with the 416 Rigby but have had a bit with the .458 Win Mag, having owned 5 and reloaded for all of them...

From what l have read, and from what l have been lead to believe, the problem with the .458 not penetrating sufficiently is when the expected velocity wasn't achieved.
When the desired 2150fps with a 500gn bullet was achieved l have never heard of anyone complaining of it's performance on dangerous game.
In fact, isn't 2150fps with a 500gn bullet the benchmark for DG?

When reloading for the .458 l have never had a problem reaching 2150fps with a 480-500gn projectile.
The highest l have reached with a 500gn projectile is 2220fps and this was from the 24" barrel of my Winchester M70.
I had a custom CZ550 in .458WM with a 21" barrel and l was still able to reach 2150fps with a 500gn Woodleigh. I did this by loading to suit the long magazine of the CZ and using a Lee FCD to crimp the bullet.

I also managed 2100fps with the 550gn Woodleigh and 2300fps with the 450gn Woodleigh Hydro in the .458 Win Mag.
I just can't imagine either of these loads lacking penetration and with modern bullets like the CEB that weigh less - but penetrate more, I could only imagine the .458 Win Mag being more effective than ever...

So l don't know if any of this helps at all but l guess what l'm trying to say is that it's not hard to reach 2150fps with a 500gn bullet out of the .458 Win Mag.
I've done it in all of my .458's I've owned and I'm a nurse - not a PH, so if l can do it anyone can...
And like l said earlier, l've never read of any complaints of the performance of a 500gn bullet at 2150fps on DG...

Russ

Have you used those loads in the African heat,just wondering how compressed they are, I have a 416 Rem and I love it but I am looking hard at a 458 Win, maybe even rechamber to a Lott