416 Rigby vs 458 WinMag a civil discussion

[Northern Shooter]

I was actually listening to Robertson and John McAdams discussing exclusively 40 cals recently. Robertson pointed out that a 430 or 450 gr bullet in 416 has a higher SD than a 500 gr 458, though at 2150 fps, it does give up some ground on energy to 458.

Ep 300: 40 Caliber Safari Cartridges With Kevin Robertson

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thebiggamehuntingblog.com

Did you listen to the recent episode on the >50 cals? Aside from the 500NE, 500J and 505 Gibbs he didn't see much practical utility in the other big thumpers.

 

[sgt_zim]

Did you listen to the recent episode on the >50 cals? Aside from the 500NE, 500J and 505 Gibbs he didn't see much practical utility in the other big thumpers.

Yeah, the missus and I were listening to that podcast between Houston and Baton Rouge. Even she, after listening to the way he described some of them, was like "wtf would anybody want something like that?"

 

[Northern Shooter]

Also interesting to note that Dr. Robertson couldnt recall a single example during his time PH'ing in Africa actually seeing one of those cartridges (.577 T-Rex, 600 Overkill etc) used on game.

 

[1dirthawker]

We have also not confirmed anything about effect on animals. All we have is a bunch of guys offering opinions based on the opinions of those who have gone before us. I am fine with that, but it's much more "informed speculation" than proven fact.

my question to you is:

how would you prove it and make it a proven fact on a living creature (buff, elephant, hippo, etc)?

@michael458 has given his rather "informed speculation" regarding the 458 vs 416 impacting DG as have others. he and others thinks the larger caliber leave more of an impression on the DG that receives the larger cal bullet. can you "prove" that theory/opinion is wrong?

 

[Creigh]

Folks like to quote “2150fps” as the defacto standard velocity for .404 ammo with a 400grn/.423” dia bullet, but that was never the case in the field from factory production barrels. The difference is because Jeffrey, Kynoch, et. al, used factory test-barrel fixtures of 26”-28” in length to derive “box-flap” velocity rather than real-world .404 rifle barrels which tended to be 22”, 23”, or 24” in length.

Good point here although I'd like to believe powders have come a wayz since then. Even so I've seen guys on here push to 84g charge weight for figures over 2200 fps, where the first signs of pressure show. I assume those are crono figures. I personally wouldn't push it there but it's good to know the mechanical limit.

 

[Green Chile]

From a practical perspective, any PH in Africa would be happy to see a client show up for buff or ele with any 416 or 458, a good soft or solid depending on the game, and the ability to shoot it without being over gunned. If you do that and can walk, you will probably take your DG.

 

[M70375!]

Hi CZDiesel,

I have no experience with the 416 Rigby but have had a bit with the .458 Win Mag, having owned 5 and reloaded for all of them...

From what l have read, and from what l have been lead to believe, the problem with the .458 not penetrating sufficiently is when the expected velocity wasn't achieved.
When the desired 2150fps with a 500gn bullet was achieved l have never heard of anyone complaining of it's performance on dangerous game.
In fact, isn't 2150fps with a 500gn bullet the benchmark for DG?

When reloading for the .458 l have never had a problem reaching 2150fps with a 480-500gn projectile.
The highest l have reached with a 500gn projectile is 2220fps and this was from the 24" barrel of my Winchester M70.
I had a custom CZ550 in .458WM with a 21" barrel and l was still able to reach 2150fps with a 500gn Woodleigh. I did this by loading to suit the long magazine of the CZ and using a Lee FCD to crimp the bullet.

I also managed 2100fps with the 550gn Woodleigh and 2300fps with the 450gn Woodleigh Hydro in the .458 Win Mag.
I just can't imagine either of these loads lacking penetration and with modern bullets like the CEB that weigh less - but penetrate more, I could only imagine the .458 Win Mag being more effective than ever...

So l don't know if any of this helps at all but l guess what l'm trying to say is that it's not hard to reach 2150fps with a 500gn bullet out of the .458 Win Mag.
I've done it in all of my .458's I've owned and I'm a nurse - not a PH, so if l can do it anyone can...
And like l said earlier, l've never read of any complaints of the performance of a 500gn bullet at 2150fps on DG...

Russ

Have you used those loads in the African heat,just wondering how compressed they are, I have a 416 Rem and I love it but I am looking hard at a 458 Win, maybe even rechamber to a Lott

 

[Badboymelvin]

Have you used those loads in the African heat,just wondering how compressed they are, I have a 416 Rem and I love it but I am looking hard at a 458 Win, maybe even rechamber to a Lott

Haven't used them in the African heat - but have the Australian summer heat.
The 480gn Woodleigh's were hardly compressed - if at all, and they reached spot on 2150fps in my Zastava, but the other loads were compressed.
I have no problem with compressed loads but l know some people do...
I managed to track down some old Winchester red & white box stuff from probably the early 80's and they were compressed and they worked brilliantly - and also reached box velocity with the 510gn projectiles (2020fps...)

Russ

 

[intj]

my question to you is:

how would you prove it and make it a proven fact on a living creature (buff, elephant, hippo, etc)?

@michael458 has given his rather "informed speculation" regarding the 458 vs 416 impacting DG as have others. he and others thinks the larger caliber leave more of an impression on the DG that receives the larger cal bullet. can you "prove" that theory/opinion is wrong?

You must have missed where I have repeatedly said I agree with that speculation. However, a bunch of guys agreeing on something doesn't mean it is a testable and provable fact.

Not all is lost, we do have 120+ years of anecdotal evidence. That evidence leads us to some generalizations that hold true more often than not, which is where conventional wisdom comes from.

However, for every generalization there are significant exceptions, and every now and then guys like @michael458 set everything on its head with disciplined and controlled testing.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

What we know based on @michael458 test’s of the .416 and .458 with Nosler flat point solids is the .458 penetrates slightly more than does a .416. Granted these quantifiable results are based on a rather small sample set of three each. Since all bullets in each caliber performed to nearly the same depth of penetration, I will accept that for the stated impact velocities with Nosler flat point solids, that the .458 penetrates a few inches deeper in the test media. We do not know if the performance will be the same in the flesh and bones of game animals.

We also do not know with any certainty if the .458 will out penetrate the .416 at the same impact velocities with other bullets. Would the results be the same or different with:

• Cutting Edge Bullets solids
• Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solids
• Barnes TSX
• Swift A-Frame
• Nosler Partition
• North Fork Semi-Spitzer
• Other modern, premium expanding “soft” point bullets.

Also, will changing the impact velocities change the results?
I believe that for any expanding bullets, a large sample set will be required due to the variable of expansion. It would be great if I am wrong in this and every expanding bullet performs exactly the same for every shot!

What we do know is that with 60+ inches of penetration in the test media for both calibers with solids, either caliber will provide the performance required so long as the shooter can place their bullets in the kill zones of their prey. Michael458 stated that he found penetration doubled in game animals. Okay 60+ plus inches should get the job done. Double that and I think either caliber at Michael's impact velocities should be sufficient.

For me, and this is opinion, I will choose a .458 for close in work on dangerous game because the larger frontal area of those bullets should transfer energy faster to the prey. If I needed a 200 yard capable rifle that delivers more energy on target that a .375 H&H, I will choose a .416 over a .375 or .458.

Based of the stated evidence, which penetrates deeper, a 416 or 458 reminds me of the old "Tastes Great", "Less Filling", or similar arguments...

 

[Green Chile]

One or the other MIGHT be slightly more penetration but both setup correctly work very well in the field on DG. Pick your favorite and don't look back. There are other subjects that have a FAR greater effect in the field than 416 vs 458.

 

[Tex .416]

One thought for those focused on which rifle was issued to government game management staff, government purchasing decisions typically are more influenced by cost considerations than quality.

 

[coreydb]

At the risk of being a "Wingnut", my dangerous game to date was all taken with a .375H&H. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle regarding un/scientific theories. If I could have the .416 or the .468, I'd take them both without a second thought. Just ensure the ammo being used is loaded for the specific game being hunted. Oh yeah....shot placement is numero uno. -Wingnut

 

[michael458]

What we know based on @michael458 test’s of the .416 and .458 with Nosler flat point solids is the .458 penetrates slightly more than does a .416.

Mark....... Small correction, I think, if I am reading correctly, the test where 458 out penetrated the 416 was Barnes Flat Nose Solids........ Not Nosler, and most of the other bullets shown were Cutting Edge Solids #13 Nose profile...... Nosler solids are hit and miss, sometimes ok, sometimes not, most of the time not fully stable....... I don't think I have posted any of those, and I think the only ones tested here are 458s.............

that the .458 penetrates a few inches deeper in the test media. We do not know if the performance will be the same in the flesh and bones of game animals.

Yes, it will..... Bullet Behavior in the test medium is exactly the behavior seen in animal tissue, with the exception of bone impact. The difference in test medium and animal tissue is depth of penetration, the test medium is far denser than animal tissue... minus the bone ........

Rule of Thumb with SOLIDS...... 35% increase in depth of penetration in animal tissue vs the test medium here. This comes from buffalo, hippo and elephant .......

Again, SOLIDS.... different nose profiles react differently with added velocity....... Barnes FN and the Old NOrth Fork solids did not give much if any added penetration with increased velocity. The New North Forks and the CEB #13s react very favorable to added velocity and do indeed give deeper penetration..........

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Mark....... Small correction, I think, if I am reading correctly, the test where 458 out penetrated the 416 was Barnes Flat Nose Solids........ Not Nosler, and most of the other bullets shown were Cutting Edge Solids #13 Nose profile...... Nosler solids are hit and miss, sometimes ok, sometimes not, most of the time not fully stable....... I don't think I have posted any of those, and I think the only ones tested here are 458s.............

My bust! I'd drop down and give you 20 (push ups) if I was a year or two younger. I don't know why I wrote Nosler...

"Rule of Thumb with SOLIDS...... 35% increase in depth of penetration in animal tissue vs the test medium here. This comes from buffalo, hippo and elephant ..."
-- More information is always better! Much appreciated!

 

[ldmay375]

I do not think that I would bet the farm on either when using with top performing solids in both, at "generally accepted" normal velocities. Too many variables when shooting game animals. How many controlled tests of media would it take to be absolute ?

I do not agree with the generalized terms that either is a hands down better penetrator. Both calibers today have substantially better bullets than even 25 years ago. Even times way past, Taylor gave praise to the thick steel jacketed bullet used in the 416 Rigby loads, as to being a major factor.
Selby which shot solids predominantly in his 416 Rigby, also gave comment on the actual bullet used.

A discussion always of interest.

 

[intj]

So it looks like that after I build my Lott--barrel should arrive in Feb, and there is nobody else in front of me on my lathe; that I will have to do my own penetration tests.

I'll have to get some CEB BBW #13 in both 416/400 and 458/500. I think the gold standard is the FBI 35 rounds ballistic gel tests, but dang, that's a lot of ballistic gel to catch 6' plus of penetration. I do know a guy that can help me, though he won't do any shooting.

I need to pound out a bunch of full-throttle Lott loads anyway to test a new stock construction method we are looking at.

One thing that I have seen since I have been in the industry is that there are always a significant number of exceptions to any general rule we establish.

After hitting him hard with a 416/400 SAF, one of the follow up shots on my buffalo was a 400 grain Swift solid. The buffalo didn't get the word on the 416's penetration ability, because the solid impacted immediately in front of the left ham and stopped in the stomach. That was nowhere near 72". It did stop him from moving though.

 

[Green Chile]

I shot this big eland last fall with a 416 Rigby and 400 gr cup point solid from NF...shot in the tail at 20 yards and was stopped in the skin on the shoulder....full penetration end to end...way over 72"...however long a big eland is.

 

[CZDiesel]

So it looks like that after I build my Lott--barrel should arrive in Feb, and there is nobody else in front of me on my lathe; that I will have to do my own penetration tests.

I'll have to get some CEB BBW #13 in both 416/400 and 458/500. I think the gold standard is the FBI 35 rounds ballistic gel tests, but dang, that's a lot of ballistic gel to catch 6' plus of penetration. I do know a guy that can help me, though he won't do any shooting.

I need to pound out a bunch of full-throttle Lott loads anyway to test a new stock construction method we are looking at.

One thing that I have seen since I have been in the industry is that there are always a significant number of exceptions to any general rule we establish.

After hitting him hard with a 416/400 SAF, one of the follow up shots on my buffalo was a 400 grain Swift solid. The buffalo didn't get the word on the 416's penetration ability, because the solid impacted immediately in front of the left ham and stopped in the stomach. That was nowhere near 72". It did stop him from moving though.

Sounds like a fun test! If you have the ability you should do one with just Gelatin and one with a 3” block of hardwood? Something like a thick butcher block?

And if you get to do the test I’ll bet you $20 that the 458 wins! Just a friendly bet so one of us can buy the other some beer of their choice for the fun of the debate!?!?

 

[DrBob]

Hi CZDiesel,

I have no experience with the 416 Rigby but have had a bit with the .458 Win Mag, having owned 5 and reloaded for all of them...

From what l have read, and from what l have been lead to believe, the problem with the .458 not penetrating sufficiently is when the expected velocity wasn't achieved.
When the desired 2150fps with a 500gn bullet was achieved l have never heard of anyone complaining of it's performance on dangerous game.
In fact, isn't 2150fps with a 500gn bullet the benchmark for DG?

When reloading for the .458 l have never had a problem reaching 2150fps with a 480-500gn projectile.
The highest l have reached with a 500gn projectile is 2220fps and this was from the 24" barrel of my Winchester M70.
I had a custom CZ550 in .458WM with a 21" barrel and l was still able to reach 2150fps with a 500gn Woodleigh. I did this by loading to suit the long magazine of the CZ and using a Lee FCD to crimp the bullet.

I also managed 2100fps with the 550gn Woodleigh and 2300fps with the 450gn Woodleigh Hydro in the .458 Win Mag.
I just can't imagine either of these loads lacking penetration and with modern bullets like the CEB that weigh less - but penetrate more, I could only imagine the .458 Win Mag being more effective than ever...

So l don't know if any of this helps at all but l guess what l'm trying to say is that it's not hard to reach 2150fps with a 500gn bullet out of the .458 Win Mag.
I've done it in all of my .458's I've owned and I'm a nurse - not a PH, so if l can do it anyone can...
And like l said earlier, l've never read of any complaints of the performance of a 500gn bullet at 2150fps on DG...

Russ

The early loads had powered that congealed and it hindered burn. The bullets were often poor from quality control. With modern powders its good. The Rigby is more versatile.