416 Rem Mag vs 404 Jeffrey

[Rule 303]

You are absolutely right. Given the same weight rifle, bullet weight, bullet velocity and powder charge the recoil in ft/lbs and recoil velocity will be identical.

In theory yes. However when your shoulder tells you different than you have to decied which you believe.
Don't forget different case designs can effect recoil velocity/acceleration to reach the recoil velocity.

I have not done the recoil figures but 106 grains of AR2213sc/H4831 pushing a 410grain projectile in my Rigby kicks a lot sharper and harder than 96grains of AR2209/H4350 pushing the same projectile and both have the same MV. Yes 10 grains more powder but a slower powder so recoil velocity should be lower, maybe.

So I tried 100 grains of AR2209 and 102 grains of AR2213sc. the 2213sc still had a noticeably sharper kick. The 100grains of 2209 would certainly have produced a higher MV than the 2213sc. Go figure.

After reading this thread I have a want for a 404J even though I have a 416Rigby. Now I have an M17 action and a 458CZ550 (That wont be used as a 458WM) which action do I use. Or do I go have a cuppa tea, a lay down and let the urge go.

 

[Dr Ray]

Does it really matter which cartridge you choose?
Both will do the job adequately. I think it’s just personal preference.
I chose the 416 Remington magnum but could have chosen the 416 Taylor, Rigby or 404.

 

[Ridgewalker]

Fun thread Toby! Can’t wait to see what you take to Africa in August!

 

[AZDAVE]

@Rule 303 you know the answer is really have a cup of Jager tea. and drop the action off with you gunsmith I have a action off getting a 404 Jeff barrel put on it. Hope to have it back in a couple months.

 

[Nicholas Barcomb]

Us hunters are a sentimental bunch and as such, the .404 Jefffery brings up the images of “Old Africa”, Teddy Roosevelt, Hemingway, Ruark, Selby, Bell, et al. The .416 Remington Magnum brings to mind...the late 80’s. Not exactly the most romanticized time in hunting.

And the .404 Jeffery has spawned a huge number or derivatives. The WSM, WSSM, RUM, Dakota, and Nosler families all are direct descendants of the venerable .404.

Not sure why it brings up memories of Ruark and Selby, especially since Selby's favourite was the .416 Rigby for DG and a .450 double rifle as a backup. Anyway, probably just the connotations that the .404 Jefferey congers up about Africa, eh?

 

[JakeH]

Not sure why it brings up memories of Ruark and Selby, especially since Selby's favourite was the .416 Rigby for DG and a .450 double rifle as a backup. Anyway, probably just the connotations that the .404 Jefferey congers up about Africa, eh?

Yeah, I’m aware that Selby wasn’t an avowed user of the .404J, just grouping a bunch of “Old Africa” together for nostalgia’s sake.

 

[Milan]

...
After reading this thread I have a want for a 404J even though I have a 416Rigby. Now I have an M17 action and a 458CZ550 (That wont be used as a 458WM) which action do I use. Or do I go have a cuppa tea, a lay down and let the urge go.

You have your cup of tea and then open the bolt face a bit, re-barrel that CZ550 and make sure it feeds .404 Jeff. Or Just have the 458 rechambered to Lott. Even less work and even more boom!

 

[Rule 303]

@Rule 303 you know the answer is really have a cup of Jager tea. and drop the action off with you gunsmith I have a action off getting a 404 Jeff barrel put on it. Hope to have it back in a couple months.

Your not helping.

Nor are you Milan.....................if it was to be a 458 then it would have to be a 450Rigby

 

[Milan]

Your not helping.

Nor are you Milan.....................if it was to be a 458 then it would have to be a 450Rigby

Well...I tried to help. I never claimed I was good at it.

 

[AZDAVE]

@Rule 303 Only to happy to assist you in making a good decision.

 

[Dr Ray]

Fun thread Toby! Can’t wait to see what you take to Africa in August!

Maybe a truckload now! Haha

 

[TOBY458]

When I first started this thread, I did it in an enquiring manner. I was afraid that the 404 crowd would lynch me for doubting their favorite caliber was any better than the 416 Rem Mag. (I know the the 404 is in theory, better than the 416 RM) But now you see that the thread actually showed a very positive light on the 404, and also showed the 416 Rem Mag is no slouch either.
To me, the 404's best qualities are it's long sloping shoulder, which permits smooth feeding. The case also has a rather large capacity to keep pressures low. The case has .015 case taper. Not as much as something like a 375 H&H or 416 Rigby, but apparently it's enough to prevent case sticking in the chamber. It has loads of history and class.

The 416 Rem Mag's best qualities are affordable cartridge cases and components. 416 Bullets are very common. Case capacity is such that you can get good velocity with a lower powder charge. (More efficient). The case taper is .025 which is quite a bit more taper than the 404 has. This again is important to prevent case sticking in the chamber. Many more guns available in 416 RM than 404.

So, no matter what side you're on, you're in good company.

 

[TOBY458]

Fun thread Toby! Can’t wait to see what you take to Africa in August!

Thinking 416 and 375. I have two rifles in each caliber to choose from. Too much time between now and then to make a decision though!

 

[Shootist43]

Toby 458, knowing you as I do, I'm willing to bet that you shoot all four of your DG rifles equally well. It may come down to assigning a "head and a tail" to each gun in its' respective caliber and flipping a coin. Either way whatever is in front of you has only moments to go before a salt bath.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Us hunters are a sentimental bunch and as such, the .404 Jefffery brings up the images of “Old Africa”, Teddy Roosevelt, Hemingway, Ruark, Selby, Bell, et al. The .416 Remington Magnum brings to mind...the late 80’s. Not exactly the most romanticized time in hunting.

And the .404 Jeffery has spawned a huge number or derivatives. The WSM, WSSM, RUM, Dakota, and Nosler families all are direct descendants of the venerable .404.

I think the same as JakeH.

 

[DaveL]

I think it comes down to sentimentality. The thought of the old .404 Jeff does stir nostaglic thoughts of a time gone by. However if a guest rocked up with either a .404 or .416 for his buff hunt, I would be a happy PH regardless. Both fantastic calibres! I had some fellows last year on buff PG in Niassa and two of the fellows floored their big eland bulls with a .404 and .416 respectfully, and get this... both eland were over the 220 yard mark!

 

[AR167]

This thread is bad for my wallet. I have an eye on a Mod. 70 in .416Rem. I'll be damned if I need another caliber to load for though. Might sell a M1 Garand and buy it anyway.

 

[Shootist43]

AR167 a good National Match Grade M1 is probably worth more than the rifle you are looking at. I'll keep mine thank you.

 

[AR167]

AR167 a good National Match Grade M1 is probably worth more than the rifle you are looking at. I'll keep mine thank you.

It's just a CMP service grade.

 

[CTDolan]

The 416 RM is offered and has been offered in many more rifles than the Rem 700. The Dakota 76 just to name one notable example. It's not really about the rifle. It's more about the two calibers being virtually the same. Any rifle can be chambered in either caliber. But the 416 RM is more easily adapted to most actions than the 404 is.

The parent case has something to do with it, also. Today, the .404 is the odd one out, that way. Brass based on the .375 H&H is as common as dirt (and therefore cheap, all the way around).