416 Rem Mag vs 404 Jeffrey

[colorado]

All lovely calibers

 

[Adam Stevens]

Us hunters are a sentimental bunch and as such, the .404 Jefffery brings up the images of “Old Africa”, Teddy Roosevelt, Hemingway, Ruark, Selby, Bell, et al. The .416 Remington Magnum brings to mind...the late 80’s. Not exactly the most romanticized time in hunting.

And the .404 Jeffery has spawned a huge number or derivatives. The WSM, WSSM, RUM, Dakota, and Nosler families all are direct descendants of the venerable .404.

This might be the best reply yet.

 

[lwaters]

One thing I like about the 416 Remington is the 350gr. TTSX Barnes bullet. It has a BC of.444. That bullet gives the 416's a little bit of advantage for plains game.

 

[Dr Ray]

This leads to the question, why is the 404 not the heavy lifter today? If it was not for this forum, I would not be familiar with this caliber.

Agreed and I have a 416 rem mag!

 

[TOBY458]

What if Holland had came out with a 416 H&H, with a somewhat improved case such as the Rem Mag? What then? Would it still be considered a high pressure cartridge with the dreaded belt? Since the 375 H&H and the 416 RM run at similar pressure, I never understood the high pressure argument. I understand that Remington overloaded some of the original ammo, but today that is a non issue. I can consistently get 2400fps with a 400 grain Swift A frame, with no signs of pressure whatsoever. With that said, I load mine to 2350 fps for a safety factor and lower recoil.
Now I think I'll go start a thread on how the 458 Win Mag is just as good as the 450 Nitro Express!

 

[Luvthunt]

Well if your rifle and reloading capability can get 2150 FPS with a 500 gr it is as good as the 450 NE, at least it will get the job done.......

 

[PeteG]

Both inferior to the 416 Rigby ...

nice to see someone with class around here...

 

[Shootist43]

Toby, re. stirring the pot, you did. But now that The Montana Rifle Co. has brought out the 404 Jeffery in their standard line up they are readily available. Let's face it. Winchester, Remington etc. cater to the American market which is predominately White Tail deer hunters with a smattering of Elk, Moose and least of all bear hunters. Apart from that, QuickLoad has the 404 Jeffery at 52,939 max psi while the 416 Remington is at 62,366 psi. Roughly 10,000 psi. (20%) more energy to get a similar result. I mean no disrespect in saying that you are recoil insensitive. Your love of light hard hitting calibers has been well documented (by you) on AH. There are many of us that enjoy the gentler recoil of the 404 Jeffery. Will they both do the job, probably yes, so what we have is a "good for you" and a "good for me."

 

[TOBY458]

Toby, re. stirring the pot, you did. But now that The Montana Rifle Co. has brought out the 404 Jeffery in their standard line up they are readily available. Let's face it. Winchester, Remington etc. cater to the American market which is predominately White Tail deer hunters with a smattering of Elk, Moose and least of all bear hunters. Apart from that, QuickLoad has the 404 Jeffery at 52,939 max psi while the 416 Remington is at 62,366 psi. Roughly 10,000 psi. (20%) more energy to get a similar result. I mean no disrespect in saying that you are recoil insensitive. Your love of light hard hitting calibers has been well documented (by you) on AH. There are many of us that enjoy the gentler recoil of the 404 Jeffery. Will they both do the job, probably yes, so what we have is a "good for you" and a "good for me."

I agree with most of your points Art. But the 416 RM at the same velocity would have the same recoil, wouldn't it?

 

[spike.t]

This leads to the question, why is the 404 not the heavy lifter today? If it was not for this forum, I would not be familiar with this caliber.

Back to school and some studying for you me thinks..........

 

[colorado]

I've always wondered why with their relatively new cartridge offerings, Holland and Holland didn't just neck up their 375 H&H to a 404 (.423 caliber) cartridge.

 

[BeeMaa]

I agree with most of your points Art. But the 416 RM at the same velocity would have the same recoil, wouldn't it?

After reading this post I had to look on Chuck Hawks recoil table.
404 J shooting a 400 gr @ 2170 FPS produces 41 ft-lbs of energy and 16.1 FPS of recoil velocity in a 10 1/4# rifle.
416 RM shooting a 400 gr @ 2400 FPS produces 52.9 ft-lbs of energy and 18.5 FPS of recoil velocity in a 10# rifle.

Not sure exactly how you would interpret the data, but I can assure you TOBY458 will not be caught dead with a 10# rifle in any caliber.

Link if you care to see for yourself.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

 

[Shootist43]

I agree with most of your points Art. But the 416 RM at the same velocity would have the same recoil, wouldn't it?

No, the Rem would have a harder "Punch" vs the gentler "shove" of the 404.

 

[JakeH]

After reading this post I had to look on Chuck Hawks recoil table.
404 J shooting a 400 gr @ 2170 FPS produces 41 ft-lbs of energy and 16.1 FPS of recoil velocity in a 10 1/4# rifle.
416 RM shooting a 400 gr @ 2400 FPS produces 52.9 ft-lbs of energy and 18.5 FPS of recoil velocity in a 10# rifle.

Not sure exactly how you would interpret the data, but I can assure you TOBY458 will not be caught dead with a 10# rifle in any caliber.

Link if you care to see for yourself.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

I did the same thing upon seeing that post. Amazing that the same performance generates 22% less recoil with a negligible difference in weight between the rifles.

 

[Jfet]

Back to school and some studying for you me thinks..........

I grow weary each night with study of this vast archive of knowledge as I struggle to catch up and become worthy of this family.

 

[JakeH]

I grow weary each night with study of this vast archive of knowledge as I struggle to catch up and become worthy of this family.

This thread has served as a lot of my education of the .404 Jeffery as well. I was AWARE of it, but I didn’t know it. As often happens here on AH, now I want one.

 

[flatwater bill]

This thread asks about personal preference........that defies a rational explanation, it can't be quantified. A full figure, or a slim maiden.........your choice is your choice.........FWB

 

[TOBY458]

Those recoil figures are for different performance levels in each caliber. If you were to load a 416 RM to 2170fps with a 400 grain bullet, the recoil would have to be close to the same I would think. Likewise, if you loaded a 404 to 2400 fps with a 400 grain bullet, the recoil would just about have to be the same as a 416 RM so loaded. Actually it would take more powder in the 404's larger case to produce like for like velocities. So, it would seem to me the 404 would recoil even more than the 416RM. Just like the 416 Ruger produces less recoil than the 416 RM and the 416 Rigby produces more recoil than the 416 RM at similar velocities.
Is this not correct?

 

[stug]

Find an online recoil calculator and punch in the numbers, yes you need to include the powder weight as well. They should be close.
One of the reasons the .404 Jeffery was so popular is that is was designed to replicate the 450/400 performance in a bolt action rifle. The 450/400 was one of the most popular calibres in its class.
If the 416 Rem had been introduced in 1908 it too would have ended up being a classic.
I have a .404 jeffery and it's drawback is it is the only rifle with .423" calibre projectiles. That makes them hard to find down here in NZ and expensive. If I had a .416 there are heaps of projectiles avaliable.

 

[Shootist43]

Toby, according to QuickLoad I can push the velocity of a 404 Jeffery up to 2366 FPS with a 400 Gr bullet and still stay below the max. recommended pressure. That is exactly 7 Ft. per. sec. slower than the 416 Remington. There is no getting around the gentler push of the 404 Jeffery compared to the thump of the Remington. Sorry!!

All of my comparisons are made using H4350 Powder. I'll be happy to compare your favorite load providing your powder of choice is listed on QuickLoad.