416 Rem Mag vs 404 Jeffrey

[spike.t]

I think the "gentler shove" of the old 404 Jeffrey is obtained at the cost of about 230 fps in muzzle velocity. See BeeMaa above. Presumably the 416 Rm can be loaded down to 2160 fps to get the "gentler shove" of the old Jeffrey. The interesting thing is that initial users of the Jeffrey found 2160 fps with a 400 gr bullet to be adequate in field. So why seek the faster harder recoil of the factory 416s ? Factory Jeffrey loads were later upped to about 2200 fps, in response to what need I don't know, and then recently to 2400 fps. But I think the gentle reputation of the Jeffery is due to its lower pressure, lower muzzle velocity loading. And we all know that velocity depends on a sort of "effective average" pressure in chamber, which is somewhat related to the peak chamber pressure that limits the load. The 2160 fps loading seems to be right in middle of the old English prescription for a dangerous game cartridge.

2160 to 2170 is what my 404 runs at....lovely to shoot....if I need to up it a bit just go to my 416 rigby....

 

[Fatback]

Very interesting read. I shoot 400 grain AFrames and Barnes Banded solids out of my 404J. I am not a hand loader so I’ve had mine loaded by John at Safari Arms in New York. Both loads are running muzzle velocities of 2150-2200 ft/second. Both shoot to same POI at 100 yards. I am very pleased with this set up and it preformed as expected on a large hippo bull this year with the solids. I hope to be able to report on the AFrames performance on buffalo in 2024.

With all of that said, I have recently become smitten with a rifle chambered in 416 Rem. I haven’t bought it, yet…. There would be no practical reason to in terms of cartridge performance on game that I’d be able to tell based on this thread and my other research. The only advantage is see for the 416 is availability of ammo and components. This is minimal for me right now as I have enough 404J ammo to last me for all of the African hunting I see in my future and then some. My logical thoughts are take the $$ I’d spend on the 416 and out it towards another hunt. But as many of us know, logic doesn’t always win out when it comes to buying new rifles. What to do…..

 

[Tex .416]

Where are you .404 Jeff owners in the US finding ammo and/or brass?

 

[Fatback]

Tex 416,

Hendershots has some 404 Jeffery ammo available. Occasionally some ammo or reloading components will come up for sale here or on Gunbroker. You just have to be diligent in looking for it and be prepared to buy it quickly if you find what you are looking for. Be prepared to pay quite a bit for it if you are able to find it. No doubt it is expensive. It’s taken me a little over a year to acquire enough that I feel comfortable with the amount I have but I am always on the lookout for it. In my mind this is by far the biggest draw back to this cartridge.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Some observations:

- The .404 Jeffery is a classic and people are subconsciously attracted to things which have been steeped in history

- With the exception of the variants that were originally chambered in the Remington Ultra Magnum calibers, it is not a very straightforward proposition to make a Winchester Model 70 action properly feed the .404 Jeffery case (although certainly not impossible).

- Yes. Availability dictates usage. The same African game departments which were issuing .404 Jeffery rifles in the early 20th century, started issuing .458 Winchester Magnum rifles in the 1960s and now issue .458 Lott rifles.

 

[Rule 303]

Where are you .404 Jeff owners in the US finding ammo and/or brass?

I don't know the company that imports Bertram Brass, if you can find out they should have some 404 brass or can get it.

 

[Rule 303]

Some observations:

- The .404 Jeffery is a classic and people are subconsciously attracted to things which have been steeped in history

- With the exception of the variants that were originally chambered in the Remington Ultra Magnum calibers, it is not a very straightforward proposition to make a Winchester Model 70 action properly feed the .404 Jeffery case (although certainly not impossible).

- Yes. Availability dictates usage. The same African game departments which were issuing .404 Jeffery rifles in the early 20th century, started issuing .458 Winchester Magnum rifles in the 1960s and now issue .458 Lott rifles.

I am only going off what I have been told by a gunsmith. He told me if a rifle will feed the 375H&H it does not take much to get it to feed the 404J case. Mind you this bloke seems to be able to fix feeding issues other can't or won't.

 

[RayAtkinson]

I've often wondered just why the 404 Jeffrey is held with so much more high regard than the 416 Remington Mag.
The 404 is thought to be the Holy Grail, and the 416 RM is barely more respected than the 458 Win Mag.

They both have similar case capacity. They both shoot 400 grain bullets at 2250-2350 fps with no pressure problems whatsoever.
They both can shoot 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps with somewhat higher pressure loads.
They both can shoot 430-450 grain bullets at 2200+ fps with no pressure problems.
Both can be shot comfortably in similar weight rifles.
And I'm sure there are more valid comparisons.

So, my question is.....if the 404 is supposed to be so much better than the 416 RM, why are there hardly any guns made for it?
If the 404 is the holy grail, why in the world would Winchester or some more of the manufacturers not chamber for it? Especially since it's so popular, and would virtually fly off the shelf!
Is it because it's rare and hard to find, that it's thought of so highly?

I know the 404 definitely has history on it's side, but a lot of that history was made by game department folks who simply shot the 404 because that's what they were issued.
If the 416 RM was around back then, would it have been used just as readily as the 404, since they are virtually identical in performance?

Pot stirred.....And Go!

The 404 J is nostalgia, and thats a good thing. I have always had both in my African days, there is no reasonable between the two other than that.

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

I don't think the Cape Buffalo really cares!

 

[Warbeast]

Aint the 404 some funky bore diameter?

I prefere rounds that have a wide variaty of bullets to reload available.

 

[Fatback]

The 404 is .423 diameter. It is definitely a challenge to find loaded ammo or components for sure. It’s doable but expensive.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

404Jeffery is a legend of African hunting for dangerous game.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Aint the 404 some funky bore diameter?

I prefere rounds that have a wide variaty of bullets to reload available.

With the 404 Jeffery - when used as intended - you really only need a 400 gr. soft (Swift or Woodleigh) and a 400 gr. solid like the Barnes Banded Solid (the flat nosed one).
Of course, you COULD use it for many things but most of us have other rifles that are more appropriate.

During load development I ran 400 gr. softs up to just over 2400 fps with no problems except unnecessary recoil. I settled at 2250 fps which does a fine job on buffalo and eland. The solids I loaded shoot to the same POI.

 

[Rule 303]

Well the 404 has a larger diameter bullet so it should have a larger wound channel so it should cause more damage when using the same bullet.

I feel that firearm manufactures felt it would not sell because the case looks like an old design and not a funky modern design. If my choice was between the two I would get the 404 simply because it works and I like it, not that I would feel hamstrung in the slightest with a 416Rem. Here in Aust we have Bertram for the cases and bullets and Woodleigh for the bullets.

 

[ve7poi]

Some observations:

- The .404 Jeffery is a classic and people are subconsciously attracted to things which have been steeped in history

- With the exception of the variants that were originally chambered in the Remington Ultra Magnum calibers, it is not a very straightforward proposition to make a Winchester Model 70 action properly feed the .404 Jeffery case (although certainly not impossible).

- Yes. Availability dictates usage. The same African game departments which were issuing .404 Jeffery rifles in the early 20th century, started issuing .458 Winchester Magnum rifles in the 1960s and now issue .458 Lott rifles.

Actually quite easy if you use a safari 416 and rebarrel then open bolt face and grind mag well projection off allowing mag to hold 3 down