416 Rem Mag vs 404 Jeffrey

[AR167]

The parent case has something to do with it, also. Today, the .404 is the odd one out, that way. Brass based on the .375 H&H is as common as dirt (and therefore cheap, all the way around).

Yep. When I was looking at .400 something rifles that was definitely apparent. I'd love to have a Rigby but damn components are higher than giraffe vagine

 

[Nevada Mike]

As a practical matter, performance on game with the 416 RM and the .404 Jeff would seem to be the same, or pretty close. The difference between ,416" and ,423" MIGHT tilt the advantage towards the .404J.

I ordered a .404J simply because it is 'Africa proven" and old-school. Classic Magnum Mauser deserves a classic cartridge.

Before the introduction of the .375 H&H, the .404J was THE cartridge for use in African magazine rifles.

 

[CTDolan]

I'd be more inclined to look at case design than ballistics. In this regard the .404 Jeffrey clearly comes out on top.

 

[Accidental Villain]

I'd be more inclined to look at case design than ballistics. In this regard the .404 Jeffrey clearly comes out on top.

On the contrary I´d say. Its partly the cartridge design that makes the 416 RM great. Why? For the same reason that makes the 375H&H superior to all the other 9 point something calibers. I would expect the 416 RM to behave in same manner as the great 375 H&H. The long tapered case combined with the genious belt will ensure that the bullet always will hit the rifling in exactly the same angle every time you chamber/fire a round provided case and chamber measurements are spot on specs. Meaning, accuracy wise it probably will be extremely consistent with a wide range of different bullets making it possible to have an ammo set up where one can switch between maybe 2 or 3 different ammo types without changing zero. In the bush that can be seriously helpful.
Never had a 416RM and never will, but I have a lot experience with the 375 H&H. The 416RM being nothing but a necked up version I would expect them to be quite similar in behaviour.
Just my 2 c.
BP

 

[CTDolan]

The .375 H&H definitely has a fair bit of taper which, in my mind, is a good thing as it eases feeding and extraction. As for the belt, well, in this case (no pun intended), it's kinda necessary.

The .416 Rem Mag has much less body taper and doesn't need a belt for headspace, the shoulder being perfectly capable. That said, it of course has a belt, a carryover from its origin. Most would argue that the belt is a detriment, in particular those who reload. I'm ambivalent about the belt. Does it lead to better accuracy? Sometimes, but not always (in fact, some who reload belted magnums ignore the belt and instead size the case so as to headspace off the shoulder). There are a myriad of factors that come into play in this regard. At any rate, in a heavy, the ability to print a true cloverleaf at 100+ yards is on the low end of priorities in my opinion. Reliability is number one.

To my eye the .404 Jeffrey has pretty much everything going for it. As a design it was way ahead of its time (even well ahead of the .416 and .350 Rigby cartridges, two that always get many accolades in this regard...says quite a lot about the old 450/400, doesn't it?). This is something a great many are coming to realize. The only reason you do not see a whole lot more of them is that the head diameter is just that much larger than a belted magnum and therefore costly to accommodate for a manufacturer that has no other reason to tool up (case in point (again, no pun intended), look at the Remington Ultra Mags...Jeffrey case but with a rebated rim). As soon as you go beyond .375 in the caliber department the number of potential customers plummets. So, while a lot of us here may dearly love the Jeffrey, we aren't enough to compel the likes of Winchester (as an example) to bring it into mass production. As for me, I'm merely thankful that it, and all its splendid kin of yesteryear, are again more or less readily available on the ammo shelf. Score that as a win for lovers and users of the greats of the past!

 

[Accidental Villain]

@CTDolan You as well as I should know that the reason why some reloaders ignore the belt is increased case life. Pushing back the shoulder especially on the 375 and similar to factory specs will usually shorten case life.
The reason for having the belt in certain types of cases is to achieve Co-axial fit in the chamber. Again, the bullet will always hit the rifling at exactly the same angle provided spot on factory specs on chamber and case. I know about buckets of 375 H&H`s being extremely accurate and consistent with a wide range of bullets. Mine included. Its an old Brno 602 Safari `67 (with the peep`n all of course Its seen years of hard use and has accounted for a large number of ele, buffs some leopards, lions and even at least two rhinos. It has in my mind a quite roomy chamber so I have to size the cases quite hard, Still it prints tiny clover leaf groups at 110 yards. How come..?

Back when working in a gun shop I took a good two digit number of customers to the range helping them getting prepared for Siberian, Alaskan og African adventure. One of the things I did was having them zeroing their new 375 H&H`s with a combo of different cartridges typically with a 270 grain flyer, 300 grain flyer and/or 300 grain round nose and/or 300 grain FMJ. I succeeded every time quite easily. This is one of 375H&H great party tricks. I`ve also exported a couple of thousand rounds to Tanzania and discussed the issue quite thoroughly with the users. Most of them also used a combo of different cartridges in their 375`s without changing zero. The reason they could do this is because of the cartridge design. I would expect the 416RM to behave in the same manner having essentially the same case. Saying the Magnum belt having nothing to say is BS because when using factory rounds the case shoulder will not touch the chamber walls when having a magnum belt at least in the 375 H&H and I will expect the same is the case with the 416RM.
The 404 has a great track record and it is most certainly a superb round and I don`t think anyone with a minimum of knowledge about it will argue about that. Say 404 to my old dad and he will surely wake up!)

And finally,Why on earth do you think RWS when they quite recently introduced the 10,3x68 they did so with the dreaded Magnum belt? I would guess the cases are a little tad underdimensioned,, still I know those Blasers and Sauer 404`s in this caliber to be extremely accurate and that being achieved with bullets weighing from 200 to 400 grains.

 

[Dr Ray]

This thread is bad for my wallet. I have an eye on a Mod. 70 in .416Rem. I'll be damned if I need another caliber to load for though. Might sell a M1 Garand and buy it anyway.

Good idea!

 

[CTDolan]

This has been a long standing debate in bench rest circles (a discipline very removed from carrying a rifle around in the bush). The consensus is that it simply doesn’t make a difference, belt or not, with regard to accuracy. Some insist that cartridges without a belt are generally more accurate (David Tubb being one, and he is as much an authority as any), but there’s plenty of evidence to dispute the claim. Custom gun makers will generally ignore the belt when cutting a chamber, choosing instead to headspace off the shoulder, which is saying something, but again there’s many a backstory. As for resizing cases to headspace off the shoulder, there’s a number of reasons for doing so, reduced working of the brass a bit down the list. As for centering the case in the chamber, a belt does nothing of the sort for virgin brass (once fired, sized to headspace off the shoulder and not worked with a collet die, perhaps, but not on the first go around).


With regard to what we’re discussing, which is rifles for dangerous game, it’s totally a non-issue. The .375 H&H needs a belt for headspace. Most modern cartridges do not. Many still have a belt, though, a vestige the past. Some new, from the ground up designs also have a belt, often dimensionally unique (the .450 Marlin and .500 Wyoming Express being two such examples), but these exist for very specific reasons. As for the .416 Remington Magnum, it could easily and quite happily get along without its belt, but it’s there and does no harm. I do still consider the .404 Jeffrey superior in every sense (other than availability and cost, of loaded ammunition and components) and have my reasons for thinking so. It doesn’t mean I am right, only that, for now, I remain convinced.

 

[AR167]

If anyone would like to know how effective a .416Rem is on hogs... ;-)

 

[Opposite Pole]

View attachment 279151 If anyone would like to know how effective a .416Rem is on hogs... ;-)

I’m interested but meat preservation is high on my priority list. What projectile/velocity did that?

 

[AR167]

My mate was aiming for the head with it facing him. Shot was high and rand down the spine intil it his the hind quarter. Regrettable, but that's how it goes sometimes.

He doesn't have much experience with big boomers, yet. It was a 400gr tsx @ 2350 or so. In hindsight I probably should have shot, but they'll be more opportunities. Practice practice.

 

[Rule 303]

I can tell you that if you hit them from behind with a very soft 400grain projectile, from a Rigby at 2450 fps it opens them up like a banana skin. Spectacular but not good for meat....................well maybe sausages.

 

[Opposite Pole]

I can tell you that if you hit them from behind with a very soft 400grain projectile, from a Rigby at 2450 fps it opens them up like a banana skin. Spectacular but not good for meat....................well maybe sausages.

Yeah pre minced meat is not my thing

 

[Rule 303]

Yeah pre minced meat is not my thing

 

[EfRed]

No, the Rem would have a harder "Punch" vs the gentler "shove" of the 404.

I think the "gentler shove" of the old 404 Jeffrey is obtained at the cost of about 230 fps in muzzle velocity. See BeeMaa above. Presumably the 416 Rm can be loaded down to 2160 fps to get the "gentler shove" of the old Jeffrey. The interesting thing is that initial users of the Jeffrey found 2160 fps with a 400 gr bullet to be adequate in field. So why seek the faster harder recoil of the factory 416s ? Factory Jeffrey loads were later upped to about 2200 fps, in response to what need I don't know, and then recently to 2400 fps. But I think the gentle reputation of the Jeffery is due to its lower pressure, lower muzzle velocity loading. And we all know that velocity depends on a sort of "effective average" pressure in chamber, which is somewhat related to the peak chamber pressure that limits the load. The 2160 fps loading seems to be right in middle of the old English prescription for a dangerous game cartridge.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I shoot my 404J with 400 gr. Bullets at 2250 to 2300 fps. Extremely effective on buffalo. Mildish recoil. Not sure why anyone would choose to suffer unnecessary recoil.

 

[EfRed]

I think I'm going to dive into this more....but create another thread. I just cannot imagine that a 404J and 416RM shooting the same weight bullet, with the correct charge to shoot at the same muzzle velocities, in the same weight gun, with the same design stock, has any discernible felt difference in recoil as the online calculators Ive used show almost the same recoil ft/lbs and velocity.

Then again, I am no mechanical engineer, but I do work with a few that are shooters themselves and may find it fun to dive into this.

If the two cartridges are loaded to the same velocity with the same weight bullet and fired in identical rifles, the only variable that remains is the mass of the powder charge, which exits at much faster velocity than the bullet. Given the same charge weight of the same powder, then recoil will be the same. This is true regardless of pressure. But in this case the effective driving pressure will be the same because the velocity is the same, and the peak pressures won't differ much.

If the Jeffrey is loaded to 52000 peak and the Rem to 62000 peak with equal weight bullets, then the velocity of the Rem will exceed that of the Jeffery by quite a bit. But the effective average pressure for driving the bullet isn't the peak pressure; one round through superior burn characteristics may have a higher effective driving pressure even though the two are loaded to the same peak pressure. And of course different case shapes and volumes mean a different effective driving pressure is had even with the same powder load.

 

[EfRed]

@Rule 303 you know the answer is really have a cup of Jager tea. and drop the action off with you gunsmith I have a action off getting a 404 Jeff barrel put on it. Hope to have it back in a couple months.

I have a Weatherby Mark V 404 Jeffrey. I like it. Anathema to most African hunters I think, but I've always found the Mark V to be reliable. And safe too, as long as you unload through the magazine and not the chamber. But it's a lot easier to fit a 416 Rem into a rifle than a 404 Jeffrey.

 

[PCC600]

Better watch it...your 416 and 404 will get jealous.
Could be a 40 caliber uprising.

And then throw in the good old 425 WR . All fantastic cartridges .

 

[PCC600]

A 416 Remington will do anything a 404 J can do and vice versa . BUT a 416 Remington will never ever be as cool as an original 404J . This old girl is a Mauser Type A single square bridge magnum in 404J . Made in 1925 and saw extensive use in India . Zero blacking on metal . Hand print visible on barrel from being carried over the shoulder . I had a copy of original stock made ( still have original ) so I can use it regularly . Otherwise I will never restore it . Great to shoot . Just a fabulous rifle .