35 Whelen vs 9.3x62

The .243 Win is a great varmint cartridge, and small deer rifle for 12 year old girls. I don't support the idea of it used on Mule Deer, or definitely not on Elk or larger. The 7mm-08 is a good minimum for that.

I came up with a new way to check minimum. If your wife can wear the bullets on ear rings, and not cringe with every step, your choice of cartridge is too small for big game.
Viral_SIGness
Rifles barred for the 243 are good. They don't need and work apart from a new barrel to make them into a real rifle like the 7mm08, 338 federal or 358 win.
The old barrel is great for tomato or flower stakes.
Bob
 
Well now we're talking! We could call it the Bob Nelson Preservation of Manhood in Perpetuity Youth Rifle Fund. Put a big kangaroo on the side with your mug for his face... deadliest rifle in the field! Haha I'm kidding.

And it was an R8 and has was keeping from having to buy another bolthead. He's got a point Bob...we could start him with an R8 like this... it's bigger than a .243. Or how about a .257Wby and load it down?

Right! Now we're talking! Clean living there with kill power to spare!

I guess it's the United Kingdom for a reason...they agree with each other on minimum cartridges.
Forrest,
You're back! You've been awfully quiet on here lately and I thought maybe you were down with the virus? Now it appears you've eaten your wheaties and had a pot of coffee to boot! Ha! Ha!
CEH
 
Forrest,
You're back! You've been awfully quiet on here lately and I thought maybe you were down with the virus? Now it appears you've eaten your wheaties and had a pot of coffee to boot! Ha! Ha!
CEH
@CoElkHunter
He's a new daddy mate so he is now time poor and sleep deprived looking after mum and bub.
Like yourself he needs educating as he is foolish enough to actually believe the 243 has a place in the hunting world.
It may in evolve a trip over there to bitch slapping the two of you into reality of life that the horrible little round is of no use.
Bob
 
@Scrumbag
Now we're talking or a 25/06 a257 weatherby or my own 25.
Bob
Please don't include those 2## numbers anywhere near the GREAT 25s.
257 Roberts too slow for you @Bob Nelson 35Whelen ?

Mine is on a decent 98 action so run it at + P Pressures / speeds. Good results with 120gr Nosler Partition, 117gr Sierra Game King and 120gr Speer SPBT

(EDIT - Now I understand, you meant that infernal 6mm thing based on 308W necked down!) Understood. Sorry, no coffee yet this morning)

@Forrest Halley
May the bolts on your rifles rust up and freeze never to open again.
Try in g to tell an avid 25 user that the horrible little 243 has actually got a use is fight'n words. By use on big game I'm assuming you are meaning nothing bigger than field mice and even then it's marginal.

I sincerely hope you don't inflict that abomination on your young fella. If you need I will even start a go fund me page to get him a 257 Roberts. That way you can get A cartridge adapter for the Roberts chambered for the 25ACP or 25/20
Bob

I'm all for the "GoFundMe", please tell me more about this chamber adapter.

Scrummy
 
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257 Roberts too slow for you @Bob Nelson 35Whelen ?

Mine is on a decent 98 action so run it at + P Pressures / speeds. Good results with 120gr Nosler Partition, 117gr Sierra Game King and 120gr Speer SPBT

(EDIT - Now I understand, you meant that infernal 6mm thing based on 308W necked down!) Understood. Sorry, no coffee yet this morning)



I'm all for the "GoFundMe", please tell me more about this chamber adapter.

Scrummy
Some guys at the pistol range by me use them in .308 to shoot .32S&W or .32acp through their .308's. I've got one for my BBF97. They can actually group pretty well at close range through some guns. According to my FEO they don't need a slot on your FAC for the adaptor as they're smooth bore, but you do of course need a slot for the pistol ammo.

.308 .32 chamber adaptor.jpg
 
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257 Roberts too slow for you @Bob Nelson 35Whelen ?

Mine is on a decent 98 action so run it at + P Pressures / speeds. Good results with 120gr Nosler Partition, 117gr Sierra Game King and 120gr Speer SPBT

(EDIT - Now I understand, you meant that infernal 6mm thing based on 308W necked down!) Understood. Sorry, no coffee yet this morning)



I'm all for the "GoFundMe", please tell me more about this chamber adapter.

Scrummy
@Scrumbag
If loaded properly the 257 Roberts is capable of treading on the heels of the great 25/06. Both of which are great 25s. My own 25 launches a 100 grain Barnes TTSX at 3,670fps.
Bob.
I will give you a call about the chamber adapter.
 
@CoElkHunter
He's a new daddy mate so he is now time poor and sleep deprived looking after mum and bub.
Like yourself he needs educating as he is foolish enough to actually believe the 243 has a place in the hunting world.
It may in evolve a trip over there to bitch slapping the two of you into reality of life that the horrible little round is of no use.
Bob
I may not like the .30-06 and it's derivatives, but I think we may just become friends. I've never thought the .243 had a place as a hunting cartridge. Unless, as I said, you're helping a 12 year old girl ease into hunting.
 
@Scrumbag
If loaded properly the 257 Roberts is capable of treading on the heels of the great 25/06. Both of which are great 25s. My own 25 launches a 100 grain Barnes TTSX at 3,670fps.
Bob.
I will give you a call about the chamber adapter.
If we are talking nice .25's, let's not leave out the .250 Savage, and the fire breathing .257 Roy.
 
I may not like the .30-06 and it's derivatives, but I think we may just become friends. I've never thought the .243 had a place as a hunting cartridge. Unless, as I said, you're helping a 12 year old girl ease into hunting.
Or helping Bob with his shoulder in a sling after shoulder surgery or now with his foot in a cast after surgery, "ease into shooting" again? It would be perfect for him! Ha! Ha! Ha!
 
Or helping Bob with his shoulder in a sling after shoulder surgery or now with his foot in a cast after surgery, "ease into shooting" again? It would be perfect for him! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Maybe he could use my creation. The .375 CreedMORE

20210318_192458_copy_1371x1431.jpg


Then he could still feel like a man, and keep his man card?
 
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Maybe he could use my creation. The .375 CreedMORE

View attachment 394517

Then he could still feel like a man, and keep his man card?
@Viral_SIGness
Thanks for the kind offer of the use of the man bun family but I politely say man you got some balls offering that shit to me. Next to ou know you will be have @CoElkHunter and @CBH offering me their pink bloody tutus and ballet shoes along with their glitter covered 243s with a glitter star hanging out of the barrel.
Bob
 
I may not like the .30-06 and it's derivatives, but I think we may just become friends. I've never thought the .243 had a place as a hunting cartridge. Unless, as I said, you're helping a 12 year old girl ease into hunting.
@Viral_SIGness
Even then I wouldn't inflict such an abomination on her.
Bob
 
this is an interesting thread and i will attach some more information to it. (i own neither a 35 whelen OR 9.3x62 ...yet ;)

this is a list of cartridges and their water capacities in grains taken from 2 sources:

30-06 69 gr
35 whelen 70/71 gr
338 winchester 85/86 gr
9.3x62 77gr
9.3x74r 82gr
375 h&h 95gr

so, clearly the 9.3 has an advantage in case capacity. also as bore diameter is increased, the same weight of projectile, at the pressure...the larger the bore, the faster the larger/more energy the larger bullet will go with the same power plant. there are efficiency gains, take for instance the

7mm mag: 3000 ft lb 175 gr
338 win : 4000 ft lb 250 gr
458 win: 5000 ft lb 500 gr

3006- 3000 ft lb 180gr
35 whelen 3500 ft lb 250gr

of course this is a generalization. it would appear that a 35 whelen with less case capacity AND bore diameter, pushed to the SAME pressures would have slightly less energy with the same weight bullet.

now @Bob Nelson 35Whelen this is not me dirt shirting your favorite caliber, this is just an observation based on previous information i have seen/read i will follow this up with an article from a site called impact Dynamics
 

Comparing the 9.3x62 and the .35 Whelen​


114137_319e09fb7a8941f0b3eaea2c1c6b0100~mv2.jpg
114137_b9d02e1af40d4923ae9e961d7b767437~mv2.jpg


First, The Personal Opinions​

"There isn't really a great deal to say about it. Everybody found it so generally satisfactory that there wasn't anything to start a discussion."

This is how John "Pondoro" Taylor sums up the 9.3x62 in his classic "African Rifles and Cartridges". The majority of posters on rifle forums can learn from this sober viewpoint that Africa professionals had as was expressed by Taylor. If a cartridge is generally satisfactory, and if another cartridge (or a few others, as is often the case) are also generally satisfactory there is absolutely no need for the mostly boring and invariably less than psychologically adult bickering and inconsequential hair splitting just to defend the writer's biased opinion.

Let us continue the sober evaluation. The 9.3x62 still is regarded by South African hunters as generally satisfactory for any dangerous game in Africa. From its introduction in 1905 until the 1960s when it was plagued by inconsistent ammunition supply, the 9.3x62 reigned supreme as the all-around, and probably most popular non ex-military dangerous game cartridge in Africa - at least at the same level as the later .375 H&H. During the past 10 years it has seen a renewed growth with South African ammunition manufacturer PMP supplying excellent ammunition with premium 286 gr bullets, and also supplying consistently high quality reloading components.

The 9.3x62 has killed so many elephant, Cape buffalo, rhino, and the big cats that one could quote reports from old writings and from as recent as the last hunting season - that describe the exact same way it penetrated and killed whatever was hunted (mostly Cape buffalo). It is an established elephant and buffalo killer. If the hunter has the knowledge of the animal's anatomy - as every hunter should have of every animal he plans to kill from small to big - a 286 gr solid bullet from the 9.3x62 at impact velocity of 2,300+ ft/sec at 30-40 yards will penetrate the heavy shoulder bone of buffalo and elephant and kill it. A soft bullet with large frontal area expansion will not - which is also true for the .375 H&H, or .416 Rigby, etc.

US literature is equally awash with writings that extol the successful ability of the .35 Whelen on white tail deer, a moose here and there, and maybe an elk. It is hardly fair to present the opinions of those owners of what it probably "could do" on the big stuff in Africa to draw fair comparisons. Neither is there any value in quoting how a hunter killed his elk with it and at what distance as it will tell us nothing about the ability of the .35 Whelen; that simple job is done many times a day in Africa on kudu and wildebeest and gemsbok and zebra with far lesser cartridges like the 7x57s, .303s, the .308W and the 6.5x55s.

I think Elmer Keith killed one brown bear with a .35 Whelen - which is neither here not there as many, many Africa lion have been killed by cattle ranchers with the .308W. Also, the .308W regularly kills brown bear in Colorado. All indications are that even Townsend Whelen himself never took the trouble to take the .35 hunting as he could easily kill anything in the US with his favourite 30-40 and 30-06. In fact the good colonel displayed a distinct disinterest in this cartridge that came to carry his name.

Similarly, there is no value in researching the abilities on soft skinned animals of either the 9.3 x 62 or the .35 Whelen because the 7x57 / .308W / 30-06 / 7x64 / .303 Brit very adequately serve the non-dangerous game varieties. With bullets lighter than 286 gr. neither cartridge is sufficient for heavy, dangerous animals and there is no edification value in telling how well a .458 WM or .45-70 or .375 H&H or .35 Whelen kills impala or zebra while a 7x57 does exactly the same.

Let us look at some physical similarities and use the existing knowledge base of what works for the 9.3x62 Bock and what not, and extrapolate that to the 9.1 x 63 (Whelen)

Case Specifications​

9.3x62

Bullet diameter.............9.30 mm (0.366 in)
Neck diameter............. 9.91 mm (0.390 in)
Shoulder diameter.....11.43 mm (0.450 in)
Base diameter............12.10 mm (0.476 in)
Rim diameter..............11.93 mm (0.470 in)
Rim thickness..............11.30 mm (0.051 in)
Case length..................62.00 mm (2.441 in)
Overall length..............83.60 mm (3.291 in)
Rifling twist..................1:350 mm (1-14")
Primer type..................Large rifle
Maximum pressure... 57,500 psi
.35 Whelen

Bullet diameter.............9.1 mm (0.358 in)
Neck diameter............. 9.8 mm (0.385 in)
Shoulder diameter.....11.20 mm (0.441 in)
Base diameter............12.00 mm (0.472 in)
Rim diameter..............12.00 mm (0.472 in)
Rim thickness..............11.30 mm (0.051 in)
Case length..................63.30 mm (2.494 in)
Overall length..............84.80 mm (3.340 in)
Rifling twist..................1:406 mm (1-16")
Primer type..................Large rifle
Maximum pressure... 62,000 psi

Bullet Performance​

Bullet weight Muzzle Velocity 100 yd Vel/Momentum
250gr Interbond 2,600 ft/sec 2,360 / 84 ft.lb/sec

50 yd Vel/Momentum
286gr Solid 2,460 ft/sec 2,350 / 96 ft.lb/sec


The above velocity numbers are controlled tested figures for commercial ammunition.
Bullet weight Muzzle Velocity 100 yd Vel/Momentum
250gr Interbond 2,500 ft/sec 2,250 / 80 ft.lb/sec

50 yd Vel/Momentum
275gr PSP 2,336 ft/sec 2,220 / 87 ft.lb/sec


The above velocity numbers are factory published figures for commercial ammunition.

What Knowledge Can We Take Away from this Data?​

  • For hunting non dangerous antelope in Africa or their equivalent weight counterparts in the US both the 9.3x62 and the .35 Whelen are 100% effective performers - but so too is the 7x57 / .280 Rem / 7mm Rem Mag / .308W / 30-06 / .300Win Mag.

  • For all dangerous game in the US (soft-skinned brown and grissly bears) the .35 Whelen and 9.3x62 will be 100% effective - but so will be the 7x57 / .280 Rem / 7mm Rem Mag / .308W / 30-06 / .300Win Mag.

  • For hunting dangerous game in Africa the 9.3x62 has proved itself to be generally satisfactory. In some Africa countries the .366" is the minimum calibre allowed, using 286 gr solid bullets for buffalo and elephant, and 286 gr soft point bullets for lion. Reviewing the figures above for impact momentum one may see the logic of that. The reader may wish to develop this thinking towards a logical conclusion:

1. Experience shows that 96 ft.lb/sec impact momentum applied to that one tenth of a square inch bullet frontal surface - and surface area of skin, tendons, bone and flesh on a buffalo shoulder which a 9.3 mm bullet bears against, creates a sufficiently powerful penetration impulse to break through with enough retained momentum to reach the heart and maybe beyond. The 9.3x62 will never penetrate all the way through both shoulders, but for a heart shot that is no big deal - not even the .416 Rigby with the excellent 400 gr Peregrine 1.5x calibre expanded VRG-3 does that.

2. That level of penetration is generally satisfactory, and the experience of Africa game control wardens over many years have developed the wisdom that any weaker penetration impulse than this is not fully predictable, and therefor not safe. So: impact momentum below 90 ft.lb/sec as the Whelen gives certainly creates a doubt - and like in aviation risk management where the threat level is high - "when there's a doubt there's no doubt".

3. This means that when I am preparing the upcoming season's hunting camp in far northern Mozambique, being the only man around with a rifle I prefer to carry not just the minimum but a little more because I will ONLY shoot an elephant or buffalo in self defense at the last moment of a charge and then want more than the minimum penetration impulse because the conditions for such a shot will not be under my control. The 9.3x62 would be acceptable when the .375 H&H or .416 Rigby is not in camp.

4. A .35 Whelen would be a camp meat rifle with ONLY 275 gr monolithic solids, and would only go out on its own in the hands of a bush-wise hunter, a 100% perfect off-hand shooter who would take care to avoid the very dense vegetation conditions where a surprise encounter with hippo, buffalo or elephant could happen. During camp preparation I need to take my men into dense bamboo forests (elephant), take shortcuts through dark and dense riverine forests carrying heavy loads of bamboo or marula poles (10 yards encounters with elephant, hippo and buffalo). This is not slow hunting where I have the situation under control. Shooting would be reactive, so the .416 Rigby or .375 H&H is carried for these walk outs.

5. This brings up the issue of expanding bullets. From .35 calibre and thicker there is no reason whatsoever to have any frontal area expansion as the wound channel already is large enough through the heart. The degrading in sectional density that any .35 bullet suffers due to expansion to even 1.5x calibre is excessive. Coupled to this doubling in frontal area and subsequent doubling in profile drag such a decrease in the impulse force per frontal area is caused so that penetration suffers remarkably. As an example to illustrate the concept: penetration through big game shoulders of a 225 gr .338 Win Mag is measurably less than a 220gr from a 30-06 when both bullets experienced 1.5x calibre expansion.

6. The .358" calibre of the .35 Whelen is not allowed for buffalo, but I shall have no problems to guide a hunter wanting to use it. We shall hopefully be able to stalk it unseen, side-on to 40 yards, wait for it to move the inside front leg sufficiently forward to expose the heart and then put the bullet into that organ with only one wide, almost overlapping thick rib in the way. This caveat means that we may need to pass up on a number of buffalo until the suitable body position mentioned above can be achieved - when WE are the proactive party and not the buffalo.

All the above are the reasons why there are virtually no .35 Whelens in Africa. It is a cartridge we started reading about in the 1970s but the impact calculations do not bear up to be 100% sure of taking Cape buffalo with it on even fairly easy, side-on shots; and while it is more than 100% capable for all the big antelope including eland, no gun dealer could since its formal acceptance succeed to interest any number of buyers. The to-be-expected question was: "Why? My .308W or 30-06 or 7x57 is more than capable already. What can the Whelen do better than these cartridges?". In fact the very same reasoning is why the .338 Win Mag has never sold here in significant numbers either. "What shall we shoot with it that we cannot shoot with a 30-06?"

There simply is no job for these two cartridges in Africa: the smaller calibres (.308" and 7mm) as mentioned earlier do the job 100% perfectly on all non dangerous antelope - and the Whelen appears to fall short to be generally proficient on Cape buffalo and elephant under average conditions. Townsend Whelen no doubt also had made his calculations and formulated his reasons for having turned his back on it and denying having had any part in its creation.

Added: Possibly the only way to establish the actual penetration ability into the heavy shoulder of a Cape buffalo by the heaviest monolithic solid from a Whelen is to just go and do it. Imagine presenting that report of a clean kill to Winchester and convincing them that patriotic fervour needs a boost - and "here is reason for a new Safari Grade rifle..."
 
@Viral_SIGness
Thanks for the kind offer of the use of the man bun family but I politely say man you got some balls offering that shit to me. Next to ou know you will be have @CoElkHunter and @CBH offering me their pink bloody tutus and ballet shoes along with their glitter covered 243s with a glitter star hanging out of the barrel.
Bob
I need to add this. I do not own or condone the Crapmoor. I think its an over hyped load of crap, that does nothing the .260 never did. It just proves if you stick it on every gun rag cover, every issue, it will sell.

My wife shopped for, and bought her own rifle. She found one she liked, and I kept my mouth shut about it being 6.5 CM.

The picture I attached, is where I took one of her fired cases, ran it in a 300 WM die, then my .375 Ruger die. I made it as a joke and posted it on another forum. Guys are already talking up its merits, and I don't doubt someone will have one soon. The middle in that picture is a 7mm version.

My coolest goof-around creation is a 7-08 case with the CM shoulder. So basically a .260 Improved.

20210315_155329_copy_585x763.jpg


Or maybe my .375-300 Win Mag, which I can't seem to find a pic of.

I have no association with the MBGAOP.
 
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this is an interesting thread and i will attach some more information to it. (i own neither a 35 whelen OR 9.3x62 ...yet ;)

this is a list of cartridges and their water capacities in grains taken from 2 sources:

30-06 69 gr
35 whelen 70/71 gr
338 winchester 85/86 gr
9.3x62 77gr
9.3x74r 82gr
375 h&h 95gr

so, clearly the 9.3 has an advantage in case capacity. also as bore diameter is increased, the same weight of projectile, at the pressure...the larger the bore, the faster the larger/more energy the larger bullet will go with the same power plant. there are efficiency gains, take for instance the

7mm mag: 3000 ft lb 175 gr
338 win : 4000 ft lb 250 gr
458 win: 5000 ft lb 500 gr

3006- 3000 ft lb 180gr
35 whelen 3500 ft lb 250gr

of course this is a generalization. it would appear that a 35 whelen with less case capacity AND bore diameter, pushed to the SAME pressures would have slightly less energy with the same weight bullet.

now @Bob Nelson 35Whelen this is not me dirt shirting your favorite caliber, this is just an observation based on previous information i have seen/read i will follow this up with an article from a site called impact Dynamics
@1dirthawker
I know you are not slinging crap mate but just trying to understand things.
Yes bigger cartridges can push bullets faster BUT need more powder to do this.
If I loaded my powder charge into the 338 from my Whelen I would be 30 grains shy of what is needed to reach the same pressure in the Whelen.
Yes powder capacity influence velocity so does pressure. Unfortunately it's it just basic physics bigger case more powder sometimes greater velocity
This is where the 4 to 1 rule comes in handy . A 4% increase in case capacity gives 1% increase in velocity.
The 358 Whelen will give the 250grain bullet the same velocity and energy as the 338 win mag with 30 grains less powder. So in this case a 30% increase in powder isn't giveing the 7% increase velocity.
Bob
 
The 358 Whelen will give the 250grain bullet the same velocity and energy as the 338 win mag with 30 grains less powder. So in this case a 30% increase in powder isn't giveing the 7% increase velocity.
Bob
bob,
i just looked up the 338-06, 338 win, 35 whelen, and 9.3x62 in the wood leigh loading manual (i am sure they use lower pressures than you are) i was trying to compare apples to apples so in that manual 2400fps was a max for the Whelen. so i tried to use that velocity as a measuring stick. i also realize that the SAAMI pressures for each cartridge are different. below is a small extrapolation of the info in the wood leigh manual:

338-06: about 50 gr avg to get 2400 fps with 250 gr bullet.

35 whelen: about 57 gr average to get 2400 fps with 250 gr bullet
(avg across all types of powder)

338 win: about 66 gr avg to get 2400 fps with 250 gr bullet

9.3x62: about 58/59 gr avg to get 2400 fps with 250 gr bullet

i suspect that one would NOT need 30 gr more powder to get similar velocity with the 338 win. (maybe you meant 30% not 30 grains) is the 35 whelen more efficient than the 338 win? yup. is it more efficient than the 9.3x62? barely. now are we after efficiency? performance? bullet weight? muzzle energy?

i think there is not a huge difference ballistically between the whelen and the 9.3. the edge of bullet weight or velocity with similar weights (at the same pressures) would go to the 9.3 it would appear.

there are more things than just pure performance to weigh in picking a caliber, available rifles, bullets, ammo, what kind of game hunted, etc. etc. I would pick the 9,3 but...i'm not right and you are not wrong. that is why there are blondes, brunettes and redheads, everyone has their own "favorites"

i do appreciate a guy that champions his cause and your handle on this site seems to proclaim a certain...bias. ;)

i suspect that not many animals could tell the difference of which caliber they were shot by at any reasonable range and similar bullet.
 
1dirtwalker,
have you read what taylor said about the 9.3x64?
bruce.
yup,

i remembered the gist of his thoughts were that it is a terrific rifle. the book was next to me, so i looked it up:

"it was an excellent weapon and a great killer" "My friend, the german hunter to whom i frequently refer, used on of these rifles fitted with a Zeiss scope and killed most of his elephant with it. It is strongly recommended if you can get the shells for it, but it may be that this cartridge will not be loaded again."

my impression is that the 9.3x64 is a ballistic equivalent to the 375 h&h. one could nit pick about which one is the best comparing those 2 as well. even if the 9.3 was ever so slightly better than the 375 ballistically, i would likely pick the 375 simply due to availability of guns and ammo.

but, the 9.3x64 is a legit big game cartridge!
 

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Big areas means BIG ELAND BULLS!!
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