1st rifle for grandson

[JimP]

Or he could go wild and buy the kid a .257 Wby R8 and then he'd have the proper bolt head for the .375 H&H we he got bigger. Only rifle he'd literally ever need for hunting. Now I've really lost it. The recoil is about 15 ft-lbs so it's pretty close to a 7-08 and less than a .30-06...I might be on to something...Bob seems to think the world suddenly changes at .25 caliber...

If he gets him a .257 Weatherby he may never need another rifle unless he starts to hunt something with a caliber restriction.

If I hadn't wanted a .25-06 for 50 or so years I would of picked up a .257 Weatherby and I still might if I find a Ruger #1 in it.

 

[Cam Moon]

I love my 2-4-3. It's light and does quite a bit for me, but I'm not giving it to a young hunter to go and wound something on the absolute upper end of it's capability. Unless I'm standing by with a magnum rifle to follow up the shot immediately if it doesn't go as planned, but even that is optimistic

Pretty much what I was saying. I've done it, but it's not really made for it, and especially for a beginner.

 

[Cam Moon]

For those saying get a heavy rifle for a kid, don’t forget it will need to shot in field positions where they might big be able to handle it well.
IMO if the kid has to wait till he’s old enough to handle an elk rifle (270 and up) then he can wait to go elk hunting.

Exactly!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You lost me at .243 loaded with Core un-Lokt on anything above a white tail at short range. I'm going to need a premium bullet. You have to have some minimum level of energy to effect penetration. It can't all be about placement, which seems to be the sunny day song of the undergunned when they optimistically take on larger game. About 1200 ft-lbs at 275 yards is what that bullet had on it. Was it DRT or did it run a ways?
I used to hunt deer with a .30-06 loaded with 125 gr Core Lokt. Worked really well until I exceeded 150 yards. Then it didn't work as well anymore. Despite having 1700 ft-lbs at 200 yards it was a poor design that didn't hold together.

Arrows kill by hemorrhaging. Bullets kill by penetration destroying vital organs, interrupting the CNS and energy imparted creating expansive temporary and permanent wound cavities interrupting the circulatory system.

No. Not for a beginner marksman and an elk. A 12-15 pound rifle for a child? Haha I'm sure the person who ends up carrying it will love that suggestion. Not a problem for the short walk stand hunter, but less than useful for a spot and stalk.

I love my 2-4-3. It's light and does quite a bit for me, but I'm not giving it to a young hunter to go and wound something on the absolute upper end of it's capability. Unless I'm standing by with a magnum rifle to follow up the shot immediately if it doesn't go as planned, but even that is optimistic.

@Forrest Halley
If'n fpe kills critters how do you explain the 1,000s of deer killed with the humble 44/40, 32/20 and even the little 25-20. All these are considered low powered today but in their day they were the ducks guts of game getters.
Placement, construction and destruction of vital organs kills not fpe.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Or he could go wild and buy the kid a .257 Wby R8 and then he'd have the proper bolt head for the .375 H&H we he got bigger. Only rifle he'd literally ever need for hunting. Now I've really lost it. The recoil is about 15 ft-lbs so it's pretty close to a 7-08 and less than a .30-06...I might be on to something...Bob seems to think the world suddenly changes at .25 caliber...

@Forrest Halley
many an elk has been killed with the 257 roberts and 120gn bullets.
Bob

 

[Rell]

@Forrest Halley
If'n fpe kills critters how do you explain the 1,000s of deer killed with the humble 44/40, 32/20 and even the little 25-20. All these are considered low powered today but in their day they were the ducks guts of game getters.
Placement, construction and destruction of vital organs kills not fpe.
Bob

Bob,

I agree with you. Most of the time. But not always. the reality is fps and kinetic energy do sometimes cause ridiculously dramatic kills. It’s just not near 100% certain.

One could argue that a really fast bullet with high energy …. In the right spot is the only logical way to go.

Just sayin brother.

Rell

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob,

I agree with you. Most of the time. But not always. the reality is fps and kinetic energy do sometimes cause ridiculously dramatic kills. It’s just not near 100% certain.

One could argue that a really fast bullet with high energy …. In the right spot is the only logical way to go.

Just sayin brother.

Rell

@Rell
I use really fast as in a 25 cal Barnes TTSX at 3,670fps snd yes the kills ar spectacular.
I also use bigger and not so slow like the Whelen. It also kills well.
But everything I've shot to date including a large zebra stallion, wildebeest, kudu and oryx could have easily been taken with a 308 with 150gn accubonds and was by my son.
Yes some fame may seen tougher tan others but I still say the right bullet construction in the right place that causes sufficient damage to the vital organs is what kills.
My son's zebra was just as dead just as quick with 2,000fpe out of his 308 as mine was with 3,200 fpe out of my Whelen so more fpe doesn't mean any deader.
Bob

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley
If'n fpe kills critters how do you explain the 1,000s of deer killed with the humble 44/40, 32/20 and even the little 25-20. All these are considered low powered today but in their day they were the ducks guts of game getters.
Placement, construction and destruction of vital organs kills not fpe.
Bob

There's a lot of reasons. Abundance of game is a big one. I don't think much of the last two, but the .44/40 is no joke. Did you see where the guy won the lever action silhouette championship with an 1860 Henry repro? I'll go with optimal velocity of expansion deformation if soft lead bullets too.

Fpe is an easily quantifiable representation of a cartridge's power. I ran some numbers through the momentum calculator that also calculates Taylor KO value and guess what? Things that had unimpressive FPE also had unimpressive momentum numbers.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

There's a lot of reasons. Abundance of game is a big one. I don't think much of the last two, but the .44/40 is no joke. Did you see where the guy won the lever action silhouette championship with an 1860 Henry repro? I'll go with optimal velocity of expansion deformation if soft lead bullets too.

Fpe is an easily quantifiable representation of a cartridge's power. I ran some numbers through the momentum calculator that also calculates Taylor KO value and guess what? Things that had unimpressive FPE also had unimpressive momentum numbers.

@Forrest Halley
Stop thinking so much mate you might do yourself an injury.
Use the simple method. Shoot shit and evaluate and always use enough gun.
If in doubt use more gun.

No such thing as to much gun but the is to little a gun. That's why medium game rifles should start at 25 with a well constructed projectile like the Barnes 100gn ttsx ot a 120gn A-FRAME. Then work ip to as big as you are comfortable with. If a 900A Square floats your boat use that. No shortage of fpe there.
Bob

 

[TMac]

You lost me at .243 loaded with Core un-Lokt on anything above a white tail at short range. I'm going to need a premium bullet. You have to have some minimum level of energy to effect penetration. It can't all be about placement, which seems to be the sunny day song of the undergunned when they optimistically take on larger game. About 1200 ft-lbs at 275 yards is what that bullet had on it. Was it DRT or did it run a ways?
I used to hunt deer with a .30-06 loaded with 125 gr Core Lokt. Worked really well until I exceeded 150 yards. Then it didn't work as well anymore. Despite having 1700 ft-lbs at 200 yards it was a poor design that didn't hold together.

Arrows kill by hemorrhaging. Bullets kill by penetration destroying vital organs, interrupting the CNS and energy imparted creating expansive temporary and permanent wound cavities interrupting the circulatory system.

A lot to unpack there... Yes, the MD was DRT as they say. More by placement than cartridge, high shoulder shot. A 62 gr. Fusion out of a .223 would have had the same result, as would a 200 gr. from a 300 WM. A 100 gr. Core-lokt is plenty for deer. Placement is #1 even with larger cartridges on smaller game, to suggest otherwise is silly. I’d take a 100 gr. .243 over. 125 gr. .308 bullet for deer any day. SD and a bullet designed more for big game hunting. Some 125 gr. .bullets in .308 are designed to do exactly what you described, open fast. You should have picked a better tool for that task IMO. That’s on you, not that cartridge or bullet. If there is a more useless and overused measure for lethality than foot pounds, I’ve not seen it. Much better is to know your game and bullet design parameters. Keep impact distances with in the velocity range the bullet is designed to perform at, using a bullet reasonably

designed for the size of game you are hunting.

 

[TMac]

Not sure how I managed to get most of my reply mixed in with Forrest’s comments. Sorry about that, but if you expand it, you should be able to sort it out.

 

[TMac]

@Forrest Halley
If'n fpe kills critters how do you explain the 1,000s of deer killed with the humble 44/40, 32/20 and even the little 25-20. All these are considered low powered today but in their day they were the ducks guts of game getters.
Placement, construction and destruction of vital organs kills not fpe.
Bob

Spot on.

 

[Ridgewalker]

Charles, I live in the northern Front Range of CO. My granddaughter (reports on AH) has taken mule deer does with 243 and Merino and Corsican with her own 7mm-08. Starting at 12 yo. She has grown like a weed this past year so I had to install a Bell & Carlson adult size stock. She will be chasing buck antelope in a few weeks with her 7mm-08.

My offer, if you would like your son to try before you buy, we can go to a range and he can shoot one of my 243, 7mm-08, 308, and 30-06. Personally I love the 30-06, but I think it is a bit hard kicking for a 12 yo unless you have lighter loads. But if you do that, he can grow into it. PM me if interested.
Best of luck in your decision! It’s tough.

 

[Forrest Halley]

A lot to unpack there... Yes, the MD was DRT as they say. More by placement than cartridge, high shoulder shot. A 62 gr. Fusion out of a .223 would have had the same result, as would a 200 gr. from a 300 WM. A 100 gr. Core-lokt is plenty for deer. Placement is #1 even with larger cartridges on smaller game, to suggest otherwise is silly. I’d take a 100 gr. .243 over. 125 gr. .308 bullet for deer any day. SD and a bullet designed more for big game hunting. Some 125 gr. .bullets in .308 are designed to do exactly what you described, open fast. You should have picked a better tool for that task IMO. That’s on you, not that cartridge or bullet. If there is a more useless and overused measure for lethality than foot pounds, I’ve not seen it. Much better is to know your game and bullet design parameters. Keep impact distances with in the velocity range the bullet is designed to perform at, using a bullet reasonably designed for the size of game you are hunting.

Not sure how I managed to get most of my reply mixed in with Forrest’s comments. Sorry about that, but if you expand it, you should be able to sort it out.

I fixed for it you. In the future, copy your text and reply to yourself and it should come up properly tagged. I wish I knew how to make it say the user name in code, then you just change the name in the header tag.

The particular .30-06 is a weird rifle that likes 125's and not much above that. Not free floated, semiautomatic and basically setup as a youth deer rifle and worked really well for swamp bottoms and 150 yards and in. Now it shoots 130 gr TTSX and I'm fairly certain that the problem is solved. Interesting detail that came up in discussion of this was that I had switched bullets from the Winchester 125 gr super x soft point to the blockish Remington 125 gr core lokt before the great bullet explosion due to local unavailability.
Sectional density wasn't something I was really a student of until I reached this forum.

I take issue with the core lokt bullet. Yes I have killed a couple of deer with this design I have had some terrific failures in .308 at 150 grain and .30-06 at 125 grain. I never shot anything over 140 yards with it in 300 WM so I can't really speak to that.

 

[TMac]

I fixed for it you. In the future, copy your text and reply to yourself and it should come up properly tagged. I wish I knew how to make it say the user name in code, then you just change the name in the header tag.

The particular .30-06 is a weird rifle that likes 125's and not much above that. Not free floated, semiautomatic and basically setup as a youth deer rifle and worked really well for swamp bottoms and 150 yards and in. Now it shoots 130 gr TTSX and I'm fairly certain that the problem is solved. Interesting detail that came up in discussion of this was that I had switched bullets from the Winchester 125 gr super x soft point to the blockish Remington 125 gr core lokt before the great bullet explosion due to local unavailability.
Sectional density wasn't something I was really a student of until I reached this forum.

I take issue with the core lokt bullet. Yes I have killed a couple of deer with this design I have had some terrific failures in .308 at 150 grain and .30-06 at 125 grain. I never shot anything over 140 yards with it in 300 WM so I can't really speak to that.

That TTSX should solve it for sure. With a mono, going lighter works well as they like speed. You may even find it is a quicker killer on deer if put through a shoulder, vs behind. It will perform like a heavier cup and core as far as penetration. SD is just one consideration, certainly not an end all be all. Like FPE, it can be misused. I find it somewhat useful as a general guide, but one has to consider bullet construction as well, among other things. I find SD useful when comparing potential penetration between two bullets of the same construction but in different calibers.

 

[Forrest Halley]

That TTSX should solve it for sure. With a mono, going lighter works well as they like speed. You may even find it is a quicker killer on deer if put through a shoulder, vs behind. It will perform like a heavier cup and core as far as penetration. SD is just one consideration, certainly not an end all be all. Like FPE, it can be misused. I find it somewhat useful as a general guide, but one has to consider bullet construction as well, among other things. I find SD useful when comparing potential penetration between two bullets of the same construction but in different calibers.

I always like a shoulder anchoring shot. Unfortunately you lose a little meat, but your recovery percentage goes way up and trailing distance goes way down.
I can't really juice the heck out of the 130 TTSX because of the Remington 7400 factor. I read somewhere to treat it gently. I run a starting load of CFE 223 through it to keep the copper fouling of the gas system down.

 

[TMac]

I always like a shoulder anchoring shot. Unfortunately you lose a little meat, but your recovery percentage goes way up and trailing distance goes way down.
I can't really juice the heck out of the 130 TTSX because of the Remington 7400 factor. I read somewhere to treat it gently. I run a starting load of CFE 223 through it to keep the copper fouling of the gas system down.

You’ll likely loose less with that mono vs a cup and core. If you like the idea of a mono, try a LRX, quickest opening of the Barnes lot.

 

[Forrest Halley]

You’ll likely loose less with that mono vs a cup and core. If you like the idea of a mono, try a LRX, quickest opening of the Barnes lot.

The problem is I end up with a heavyweight high BC bullets going that route. I'm thinking the TTSX is where I need to stay. I might be convinced to go up to a 150 if I can keep the groupings for a whole magazine.

 

[TMac]

The problem is I end up with a heavyweight high BC bullets going that route. I'm thinking the TTSX is where I need to stay. I might be convinced to go up to a 150 if I can keep the groupings for a whole magazine.

In .308 ya, forgot that. I use them in .284 145gr. and .277 129gr I think. Have not tied the new 139gr in .284. Good luck.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Here is some info I gathered for low recoil rifle cartridges that could be used for elk. Most of all the cartridges suggested in previous comments would be great choices.

Info retrieved from Hornady Ballistics Charts and Chuckhawks recoil table.

Assumption 1 - that 1,300 ft/lbs is minimum required energy for bullet expansion and penetration with correctly placed shot on elk.

Assumption 2 - I listed 200 yard performance as shot distance should be limited to <200 yards for new hunter.

Assumption 3 - rifle cartridge selected should allow for shot distance to increase over time making the cartridge more versatile.

Assumption 4 - cartridge performance can be improved upon - using published data for this comparison.

Assumption 5 - felt recoil can be reduced with properly fitted stock/pad and weight of rifle.

I listed 139 & 140 grain bullet weights for side by side comparison - 308 & 30-06 have 150 grain bullet data listed.



7x57. 12 lbs of recoil with 139 grain bullet. 1774 ft lbs at 200 yards.
Max effective range 400 yards - 1314 ft/lbs energy



7mm-08. 13lbs recoil with 139 grain bullet. 2042 ft lbs at 200 yards.
Max effective range 500 yards with 1311 Ft/lbs energy



6.5CM. 13 lbs recoil with 140 grain bullet. 1773 ft lbs at 200 yards. Max effective range 400 yards - 1379 ft/lbs energy



308 Win. 16 lbs recoil with 150 grain bullet. 2176 ft/lbs at 200.
Max effective range >400 (1543 ft/lbs at 400 drops to 1287 at 500). **Could not find 140gr bullet data on Hornady***


.270 win. 17 lbs recoil with 140 grain bullet. 2042 Ft/lbs energy at 200 yards.
Max effective range 500 yards - 1310 ft/lbs energy



280 Rem. 17 lbs recoil with 139 grain bullet. 2250 ft lbs at 200 yards. Max effective range >500 - (1459 ft/lbs @500)



30-06. 18 lbs recoil with 150 grain bullet. 2300 ft/lbs energy at 200. Max effective range 500 - 1370 ft/lbs energy. **could not find 140gr bullet data on Hornady***

@Berettaco
@Forrest Halley
Keep it simple gentlemen I'm just a poor ol country boy.
I just use a rifle and cartridge that suits me and the game.
I hunt with a gun not a calculator so don't need all those BCs, SDs, Fpes, free recoil numbers, weight of rifle or MVs and what ever else you think of.
Match cartridge/ projectiles and skill level to game hunted and go shoot shit and have fun and enjoy
Simples
Bob