why do people not use premium bullets?

[CoElkHunter]

I see where Remington has just come out with the all copper Core Lokt bullet at about the same price point as Barnes. Except they need to lose the “Lokt” part cause there’s no jacket to lock onto anything with the monometal bullet. For the same price I’ll stick with Barnes.

 

[Carsten]

One thing that has not been in the discussion, is that when we hunt and shoot with bullets that contain lead, more or less of the lead will end up in the animal's intestines and the meat we want to eat.

If you leave lead-containing entrails and meat remains in nature, it ends up in birds of prey and other carnivores, which end up getting lead poisoning.

Lead is a well-documented environmental toxin that accumulates in the body, and causes a number of problems.

Personally, I don't want to consume more lead than is absolutely necessary.

That is why I also stopped using lead bullets for hunting several years ago.

Here in Denmark the government has put an end to the discussion about premium/non-premium lead bullets, because the Danish government has banned the use of rifle ammunition for hunting, that contains more than 2% lead from 1. April 2024.

Several EU countries are working on similar bans on lead-containing ammunition.

Shotgun cartridges with lead has been banned here for many years.

Actually the Danish lead ban is max. 1%, which makes it even more stupid.
We cannot use normal brass bullets for hunting anymore as ”turning quality” brass typically contains about 2% lead.
We have used pure lead for hundreds of years and reducing that to 2% is still not good enough.
My own government even exceeds the EU in stupidity.
I am speechless..

 

[Sideshow]

@IvW
@gajie270
I can understand it and it sure ain't ignorance.
I use a non premium for 99% of my hunting and range time.
The game I shoot feral animals like pigs goats and deer can't tell the difference when hit with a bog standard Hornady round nose,SST or Interlock, let alone a Barnes TTSX or swift AFrame. The game dies just as dead with the cheaper bullets and sometimes quicker.
I can't see the sense of using premium bullets for volume feral control. Besides that I just plain can't afford premium bullets for all my hunting. A box of Hornady 25gn round nose or spire points for my Whelen are 65 bucks for 100. A box of 50 Barnes are 140 dollars, AFrames dearer again and the last time Iooked 25 250gn partition was 140 dollars.
Woodleigh and Atomic 29 are 66 to 80 dollars a box of 50 so that's not bad for premium.

Basic cup and core give me more shooting for my dollars.
In the good ol USA Speers are regarded as cheap bullets but in Australia the last box of speer 250gr hot core was 88 dollars for 50 and that was a few year ago.
Woodleigh PPSP bonded are cheaper.
To me it's a matter of economics.
For my hunt in Namibia I used Accubonds, Woodleigh and the good old fashioned plain Jane basic Hornady round nose.
I can assure you my oryx didn't argue when that cheap arse round nose tore thru him and left a golf ball size hole out the other side.
To me it about marching bullet to game and in Australia we don't need the premium for 99% of or hunting.
But hey that's me.
Bob

Thanks for that post Bob. I was just about to chime in with exactly that what you said. That price is very restrictive at times. Yes if I was going on a driven boar day or Africa I’d load up and test some recommendations. But for what I’m knocking over here Hornday interlocks gets the Yes vote. The trend here is to head for copper. But the price is eye watering when compared to lead. Also I really don’t like being told what I should use. If it doesn’t get kill the target species humanly then imo you need to change bullets.

 

[375Fox]

I see where Remington has just come out with the all copper Core Lokt bullet at about the same price point as Barnes. Except they need to lose the “Lokt” part cause there’s no jacket to lock onto anything with the monometal bullet. For the same price I’ll stick with Barnes.

Sounds more like rebranding.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Sounds more like rebranding.

They’ll probably load those in their “new” .360 BUCKHAMMER too.

 

[375Fox]

We aren’t in disagreement… I don’t doubt eagles eat guts.. and I don’t doubt there can be trace elements of lead in the guts… I also don’t disparage anyone that chooses to shoot something other than lead if that’s the choice they make…

What is bothersome is when lead studies are done…I’ll use the condor issue in California again… we are told definitively that lead is the problem… then when there is no noticeable difference after the banning of lead the “real” truth comes out.. and that’s they can’t tell you what the actual impact was in the first place or whether banning lead made a difference… but… the ban stays in place (no longer a choice)…

If/when definitive evidence is brought forward and the results of change can be absolutely realized… then perhaps the ethical and right thing to do is change..

But how many times does a government agency have to tell us something like “lead bad!” Or “mask good!” Or “they are mostly peaceful protests” before we waive the bullshit flag and demand better?

If lead is bad for PA and the citizens of PA agree… then lead shouldn’t be used… to your point what might be bad there (big eagle population, etc) might not be an issue somewhere else…

The way lead studies are done in birds can be definitively argued. I used PA deer season as an example, but our eagle population increases every year still. However, what I see as a bigger issue is hunters disregarding any possibility of lead poisoning in birds of prey as a result of hunting. You wrote if the citizens of a state agree lead is bad then it shouldn’t be used, the problem with that is citizens are primarily non-hunters. They won’t be so quick to disregard published effects of lead as many hunters that are set in their ways. I think we need to try and get ahead of it or state or federal governments will tell us what to do. We can’t get ahead of it by denying a problem could exist. Putting the data out there an images like the lead fragments x-rays educates people. The voluntary encouragement to use copper in certain problem areas has gone well from what I’ve read. I think it makes us look much better as hunters trying to address an issue rather than denying it.

 

[Tam Dl]

We have addressed the issue, what we have not uniformly done is bend over to 100% adoption because people who hate hunting are pushing an agenda. If you think people should be open minded, which actually sounds like they should go along to look good, then one should at least look open mindedly at the possibility this is all anti gun.

As a land owner, I would not want to buy a piece of land that had been heavily shot over with lead munitions. Like, I really don't want to buy Micheluk's property, so what exactly is the next step, a total ban of all lead munitions. I believe some militaries are already using non-lead for practice. Well, you know, and uranium.

For instance, how is the lead record of regular meat production. I bet a lot of leaded gas has gone into it. And what about the wider impacts of lead in metal machinery, or every other nasty thing they do. But in the US, last I heard they were a protected industry, where they can at least try taking Oprah (?) to court over free speech.

Just tossing out ideas, doesn't all point in the same direction.

There was an article in a local magazine here on the East Coast of Canada on lead in rifle bullets. It was pretty crazy, making it sound as though one bullet the size of an asprin was a major problem. I mean, 2 ounces of lead out of a shotgun that holds 10 rounds where the shooters always empty the gun, that is a problem, if it was still legal on the ammo. But one bullet for a whole deer. There is more lead in the average chinese toy.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

I have been following the thread and thought I should take a closer look at those x-rays. I think I am going to call bullshit that these animals were shot with an expanding lead bullet. Every animal l have shot and butchered, that was shot by any bullet had broken bones and a wound channel you could push a broom handle through. Look at the 4 x-rays and can anyone point out a broken rib or spine or shoulder! No because there aren’t any. Bullshit propaganda by an anti hunting veterinarian in OZ is my take on the article seen in this thread. IMHO.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have been following the thread and thought I should take a closer look at those x-rays. I think I am going to call bullshit that these animals were shot with an expanding lead bullet. Every animal l have shot and butchered, that was shot by any bullet had broken bones and a wound channel you could push a broom handle through. Look at the 4 x-rays and can anyone point out a broken rib or spine or shoulder! No because there aren’t any. Bullshit propaganda by an anti hunting veterinarian in OZ is my take on the article seen in this thread. IMHO.

Well ... maybe it was a Texas heart shot through the poop chute? Or shot through its mouth while it was yawning? Yeah, that's it. Sure. Could have happened.

I think you're right. Bullshit.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Mark Twain popularized the saying i in 1907. "Figures often beguile me," Twain wrote, "particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.']

 

[Hogpatrol]

I bet every treatise written about lead poisoning animals due to hunters was written by an anti-hunter or anti-hunting organization. Like Twain said, lies, damned lies and statistics. In this day and age, any study can be doctored to fit an agenda. From this chair, the lead controversy has its roots in an anti-hunter's mind. and like Goebel's posited, if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes truth.

 

[YancyW]

I bet every treatise written about lead poisoning animals due to hunters was written by an anti-hunter or anti-hunting organization. Like Twain said, lies, damned lies and statistics. In this day and age, any study can be doctored to fit an agenda. From this chair, the lead controversy has its roots in an anti-hunter's mind. and like Goebel's posited, if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes truth.

And when you concede that ground, you never get it back.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Well, I guess that lead ban isn't having the desired effect. Condors are still dying in California.
Note in the article, lead is still killing them after sixteen years of the ban. After all that time, must be some pretty rancid carrion they're eating.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/06/us/california-condors-avian-flu-scn-trnd/index.html

 

[Hogpatrol]

Since this thread has already become a train wreck due to the lead poisoning "theory", I'd advise reading this about the California Condor, aka their flying "pets".

https://crpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/AB-711-Compliance-Guide.pdf

 

[C.W. Richter]

@mark-hunter
I tried some 100gn nosler bts in my 25. Didn't even find a hole in the 100yds target.
Me thinks they may have been a bit fast. Later I read the box and it said Max velocity 3,200fps.
View attachment 556145
This may explain it .
Bob

should be on-par w/ a 25-06 unless improved (and i don't see much taper!)

 

[C.W. Richter]

I see where Remington has just come out with the all copper Core Lokt bullet at about the same price point as Barnes. Except they need to lose the “Lokt” part cause there’s no jacket to lock onto anything with the monometal bullet. For the same price I’ll stick with Barnes.

Core-MoktTM?? Or Remifornia Specials!

 

[buffybr]

"Why do people not use premium bullets?"

Because bullet placement is more important than bullet construction. Not all game animals need a premium to kill them, and some rifles might shoot a standard cup and core hunting bullet more accurately than a premium bullet.

I now hunt almost exclusively with premium (Barnes TSX and TTSX) bullets in my .375 RUM and my .300 Weatherby.

But I haven't always and still don't always use premium bullets for certain game animals or in all of my hunting rifles.

Here are some (high dollar?) animals that I made one shot, DRT kills on with standard cup and core hunting bullets...

A 375" bull elk from a DIY public land hunt in Montana with a 180 gr Sierra Gameking bullet from my .30-06.

My first Montana Bighorn from a DIY Solo hunt with a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet from my .257 Ackley

Another Montana Bighorn from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.

Another Montana Unlimited Unit Bighorn ram from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.

And this Northwest Territories Dall ram from my first guided hunt, but also shot with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

"Why do people not use premium bullets?"

Because bullet placement is more important than bullet construction. Not all game animals need a premium to kill them, and some rifles might shoot a standard cup and core hunting bullet more accurately than a premium bullet.

I now hunt almost exclusively with premium (Barnes TSX and TTSX) bullets in my .375 RUM and my .300 Weatherby.

But I haven't always and still don't always use premium bullets for certain game animals or in all of my hunting rifles.

Here are some (high dollar?) animals that I made one shot, DRT kills on with standard cup and core hunting bullets...

A 375" bull elk from a DIY public land hunt in Montana with a 180 gr Sierra Gameking bullet from my .30-06.
View attachment 556275

My first Montana Bighorn from a DIY Solo hunt with a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet from my .257 Ackley
View attachment 556276

Another Montana Bighorn from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.
View attachment 556274

Another Montana Unlimited Unit Bighorn ram from an Unlimited unit, also on a DIY solo hunt with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.
View attachment 556277

And this Northwest Territories Dall ram from my first guided hunt, but also shot with my .257 Ackley and a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet.
View attachment 556273

Not trying to be rude but were there that many “premium” bullets made when you shot those first couple sheep and elk? Just saying your moustache looked a lot dark and with less wisdom than your NWT Dall sheep.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

"Why do people not use premium bullets?"

Because bullet placement is more important than bullet construction. Not all game animals need a premium to kill them, and some rifles might shoot a standard cup and core hunting bullet more accurately than a premium bullet.

I won't argue with you at all about the importance of bullet placement, it most certainly is. But I think you'd agree that a well placed 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip into the shoulder of a bull elk that is 50 yards away is a very risky move. It was the sort of thing, but only involving a moose, that drove Mr. Nosler to develop the Partition.

Awesome bighorns by the way!

 

[Tbitty]

I won't argue with you at all about the importance of bullet placement, it most certainly is. But I think you'd agree that a well placed 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip into the shoulder of a bull elk that is 50 yards away is a very risky move. It was the sort of thing, but only involving a moose, that drove Mr. Nosler to develop the Partition.

Awesome bighorns by the way!

A well placed 150gr Nosler Ballon Tip would be into the lungs, 2-3" behind the shoulder of a bull elk. At 50 yards that should be a chip shot.

Nonetheless, ballistic tip on elk, unless you're going for head shot or broadside, is not among the better bullet choices.