Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[One Day...]

Amen @rookhawk!
In the late 1980's, before the kids went to college (=enforced poverty!), I had Paul at Griffin & Howe build me a .340 Wby on a Brno 602 action magnificently slicked up and jeweled (original magnum length Mauser actions were not to be found in those days and even Rigby of London used the Brno action!); 3 position safety; gorgeous G&H pattern European walnut stock; integral front sight, barrel band and quarter rib mid-heavy contour barrel; express sights actually regulated for 50 m, 100 m and 200 m (Paul filed them down as I was shooting); claw mount 1.5-6x42 Schmidt & Bender; stoned 602 trigger (not the CZ550 set trigger thing); etc. A thing of beauty!
I was sucked into the .340 Wby "legend" (it is actually a truly unique caliber combining the energy of a DG gun with the trajectory of a varminter, well, almost ;-) by a famous article from Ross Seyfried in a vintage Gun & Ammo magazine, and I never looked back. The scoped gun approached 11 lbs (never bothered me, I used to carry the squad machine gun in another life, and anyway this is pretty standard for a scoped .416 Rigby), and to me (love in the eye of the beholder?) the recoil was never an issue. I have been kicked worse shooting 3" steel shells at geese. I loved that gun for moose, elk, grizzly, etc. and took it among other places to Newfoundland and British Columbia. It was going to be my universal plains game gun...
Sadly, a conscientious baggage handler at the Phoenix airport decided that it would be better reconfigured as scrap metal and kindlewood, and speared the steel gun case with a forklift fork... American Airlines offered $250 or so, whatever the international traveler rate per pound of lost luggage was in the early 2000's, and, more happily, my umbrella home insurance covered some of the loss. But times had changed and I never could afford to replicate the gun.
I think about it every time I pull the Roy .340 out of the safe...

 

[One Day...]

Lest you would think that I am telling tales...

 

[cbvanb]

It must be painful for you to see that every time you open the safe. I could drive up from Tucson and take it off your hands.

 

[One Day...]

It's long gone. The barrel was bent

 

[larry4831]

That is a real shame. Sounds like a beautiful rifle

 

[larry4831]

I had a 340 Weatherby and I also had a 330 Dakota, they were both excellent Shooters. I wish I still had them

 

[rookhawk]

It's long gone. The barrel was bent

A couple of things came to mind. 1, that gun wasn't dead yet, it just needed Paul at G&H to rebuild. Sad you gave up. New barrel and new stock. Action was good. All the sweated on goodies could be swapped. Hate to see fine art get scrapped.

Earlier in the conversation I cringed a bit at the .340W when you mentioned it for two reasons. 1.) they recoil like mules in their 8.5lb-9lb format, I see that you built an 11lb gun that would make it quite pleasant to shoot. 2.) I thought that it is < .375HH so it must be for a Euro/North America only gun and sure enough, that was exactly your intentions for it. I release both biases, you had good cause to like it based on configuration and application.

If you were to do it over again with Africa in mind, would you just go with another .340W or would you do another .375HH or a .378W instead? Do you feel the .340W was giving you something in spades the .375HH wouldn't with similar loads? (I gather flatter trajectory is important to you)

I had a beautiful .340W in a very custom Ruger #1 with excellent wood and finish. It was a miserable beast to shoot though because recoil was what I call "uncomfortable" in such a light stalking rifle as a single shot.

 

[One Day...]

I did not really "give up" per se, but I could not afford to rebuild the gun at the time. These were the bad economic years and we still had 3 kids in college simultaneously then. I actually sold the pieces to George Caswell at Champlin Firearms and he either resold them as a kit or he rebuilt the gun, I am not sure, but the action certainly did not go to the scrap pile ;-)

You are correct that it was my interpretation of 'the one bolt action gun' with North America in mind.

If I did my interpretation of 'the one bolt action gun' now with Africa in mind:
1) I would not select the .340 Wby because the .340 with the right bullet will actually do the job on anything that walks the earth, but it would be illegal in many places for DG. That is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.
2) I would not select the .378 Wby because a) MY concept of buffalo or lion hunting is not to snipe them at 200 yd like glorified wildebeest or coyotes (which I reckon the .378 Wby is probably the ideal caliber for) but to get up close and personal at 25 yd with a double; and b) for elephant or hippo, regardless of speed-induced "energy" figures, I remain a tad suspicious of the so-called hydrostatic shock and I want a heavier bullet making a bigger hole and plowing deeper;
3) I would not select the .416 Wby or .460 Wby because I reach MY recoil threshold at the 70 to 80 ft/lbs (.458 Lott and .470 NE) level, while the big Wby calibers will go happily in the 90 to 100 ft/lbs range. God bless those who can shoot them well, and some do it very well, they are just more men than I am LOL.

I guess that for me, 'the one bolt action gun for Africa' would be a toss up between the .416 Rigby (or the other similar .416s, but I like the Rigby lower pressure) if more DG was on the menu, or the .375 Wby if more plains game was on the menu. The .416 Rigby shoots flat enough to 200 yd for most plains game situations, but really drop like a rock toward and after 300 yd, while the .375 Wby still clings (by the skin of the teeth!) to my favorite personal rule of 'horizontal cross hair on the belly line between 0 and 200 yd (and let the shot climb into the heart); dead center at 300 yd; horizontal cross hair on the shoulder line at 400 yd (and let the shot drop into the lungs)' with +4.5" at 100 yd, +5.5" at 200 yd, 0 at 300 yd and -13" at 400 yd. The .375 Wby would give me an additional hundred yard field zero over the .375 H&H; it hits 20% harder (5,000 ft/lbs E0 vs. 4,000 ft/lbs E0); its recoil is fully manageable at 40 ft/lbs with a 11 lbs scoped gun; it is legal on anything; AND in a pinch it fires quite happily the ubiquitous .375 H&H to be found in any African bazaar. What is there not to like ;-) Oh, and Weatherby was smart enough to restart loading it!

The gun would likely be built on a new magnum Mauser action (or equivalent Granite Mountain etc.); with a 26" medium-heavy contour barrel (yeah, I know some will scream that it is too long in the bush but that never annoyed me); with detachable claw mounted 1.5-6x42 Schmidt & Bender scope; it would have 2 stocks (one in walnut to look at, and one in kevlar/aramid with aluminum bedding blocks to hunt with); it would have actually regulated express sights for 50/100/200 yd; a barrel band front sight, barrel band sling swivel, and barrel band rear sight block (have you ever seen soldered parts fall off a gun? I have); it would weight between 10 1/2 and 11 lbs; and it would in all likelihood be in .375 Wby because it is, in my mind, and for the reasons expressed above, quite probably - and objectively - the best costs/benefits compromise of all African calibers (the .416 Rigby being in my mind a close second).

 

[Bas]

Lest you would think that I am telling tales...

View attachment 238589

View attachment 238588

Photos like that literally make me nauseous...

 

[Bas]

I'll admit, playing with larger bores on the bench is not a good thing. I've got a hydraulic rifle rest that'll handle up to and including a 50 BMG. None of the lead sled weighing it down. Sure makes sighting in scope and checking my loads for accuracy a cinch.

Could you give more info about the "hydraulic " rest ?
Thanks, Bob

 

[1dirthawker]

one day,

probably a partial problem with the weatherby, they shoot so fast that they over stress the bullets that are designed for rifles that shoot considerably slower. in a solid configuration, it is unlikely that a different caliber would do better.

in a soft configuration, it is a tougher problem. only the toughest bullets are actually going to be able to hold tother enough to do the job. also.....there is the recoil consideration. hmmm, a 450-400 or a 416 weatherby on a buffalo/lion/ele, etc. with proper shot placement, which one fares better??

BOTH! except more recoil on the weatherby. thats it. with a soft, it REQUIRES a very tough bullet.

 

[Bas]

one day,

probably a partial problem with the weatherby, they shoot so fast that they over stress the bullets that are designed for rifles that shoot considerably slower. in a solid configuration, it is unlikely that a different caliber would do better.

in a soft configuration, it is a tougher problem. only the toughest bullets are actually going to be able to hold tother enough to do the job. also.....there is the recoil consideration. hmmm, a 450-400 or a 416 weatherby on a buffalo/lion/ele, etc. with proper shot placement, which one fares better??

BOTH! except more recoil on the weatherby. thats it. with a soft, it REQUIRES a very tough bullet.

Barnes and CEB both said balls - to -wall on speed, but the petals on the Barnes may not act normally and shear off. The shank will continue to penetrate as long as it maintains momentum. PaulT (ck. his posts) saw little use for anything other than CEB Raptor type bullets. He had seen the results on an incredible number of Aussie buff. I appreciate your input. Good hunting to you.
Bob

 

[rookhawk]

So what we're talking about now is the increased velocity of a Weatherby Magnum Cartridge introducing enough velocity to cause jacket separation due to centrifugal force in flight or upon contact with the game or if it hits a leaf or twig along the way.

I can tell you that at moderate velocities, many have seen this phenomenon with Nosler Partitions over the years. It is a real concern at ultra velocities, particularly on larger bullets in the "medium bore" range. (.338-.423) Avoiding Cup and Core designs as Bob points out is a probably a good way to mitigate this.

 

[Bas]

So what we're talking about now is the increased velocity of a Weatherby Magnum Cartridge introducing enough velocity to cause jacket separation due to centrifugal force in flight or upon contact with the game or if it hits a leaf or twig along the way.

I can tell you that at moderate velocities, many have seen this phenomenon with Nosler Partitions over the years. It is a real concern at ultra velocities, particularly on larger bullets in the "medium bore" range. (.338-.423) Avoiding Cup and Core designs as Bob points out is a probably a good way to mitigate this.

My shooting for the sake of shooting with anything other than a .22 is far, far
in the past. Since volume is no longer a concern the higher price of CEB'S , Lehigh, Barnes and others is acceptable. In the rare instance where I go afield I absolutely will not even put crosshairs on game until a solid rest is secured. Should I see a need in the future, I'll practice a bit offhand. I personally like the Trigger Stick .
I just loaded 79 gr. Lehigh bullets for.308 Win. I hope to use this fall.
Might consider the 225gr solid and 260gr. MAXIMUS for giggles if I get the .460 out of layaway prison.
Check out Lehigh and CEB for "out-of-box" (and IN THE BOX) thinking of the possible trends of the future. If people ALWAYS used former and previously proven methods, we'd all be packing the Blunderbuss.

Thanks, Bob

 

[Bas]

one day,

probably a partial problem with the weatherby, they shoot so fast that they over stress the bullets that are designed for rifles that shoot considerably slower. in a solid configuration, it is unlikely that a different caliber would do better.

in a soft configuration, it is a tougher problem. only the toughest bullets are actually going to be able to hold tother enough to do the job. also.....there is the recoil consideration. hmmm, a 450-400 or a 416 weatherby on a buffalo/lion/ele, etc. with proper shot placement, which one fares better??

BOTH! except more recoil on the weatherby. thats it. with a soft, it REQUIRES a very tough bullet.

Yes, the recoil. NOBODY likes it. Some can handle it better than others, but like it ? Maybe there exists a masochist who LIKES it but most people...........
If a brake can tame it..........my personal current situation is I hunt alone, including 4 trips to Colorado. Nobody to abuse except me , wearing hearing protection. I'm certain I can't withstand the recoil as when in my late 20's and early 30's. But after a few shots I'll know more. So will my shoulders after 3 surgeries in the last 11 years. So what, sell it and move on. My .375 H&H has given me no flinch. It might take having a .460 Weatherby again to clear the cobwebs. Or create some ! It's all in play.
Thanks, Bob

 

[Bas]

Photos like that literally make me nauseous...

When watching "Dirty Harry" at it's release in the early 70's, I even cringed when he dropped his Model 29 on cement while standing at the cross !

 

[One Day...]

Wholeheartedly agreed in principle with everything said by @1dirthawker, @rookhawk, and @Bas as regards bullet construction, speed, recoil, etc. with the following caveats:

Recoil: this is very personal issue. Most of us have a threshold. Some cringe at 15 to 20 ft lbs (.270 Win to .30-06); some - God bless them! - are happy at 100 ft lbs (.460 Wby); I personally reach my limit around 80 ft lbs (.458 Lott and .470 NE).
I personally see 4 factors at play:
i) what did you learn to shoot with? If you are a younger shooter who learned on a semi auto AR (.223) your sense of "normal" is pretty low (3 to 5 ft lbs!). I learned in the French Alps, not too long after WWII when there were a few 8mm (7.92 actually) Mauser K98 and/or .303 Lee–Enfield SMLE in every farm, so my baseline started a little higher (20 ft lbs).
ii) how good is your technique? This is critically important. You cannot shoot a "big gun" the way you see so many folks (sadly including many of our soldiers) handling an AR or M4, with the tip of stock butt loosely and partially contacting a random point on the top of the shoulder.
iii) what is the weight of the gun? The current rage for "guide guns" and "ultra light" guns is, in my humble opinion, gravely misguided. It ignores the fact that one of the primary roles of gun weight is to absorb recoil, whether it be a shotgun or a rifle. A .340 Wby in a 10 1/2 lbs gun is no worries to me; but I would adamantly decline shooting a 6 lbs .340 Wby...
iv) where is your scope? Too many scopes are mounted way too far back on "big guns." You should need to stretch your neck pretty hard forward to get a complete clean view of the ocular. It actually has zero bearing whatsoever on your field aim if you see a blurred black ring around your reticle, and it buys you the additional inch or two that insure that you do not get cut when you pull the trigger on a snap shot.

I reckon that most anyone properly taught should be able to handle 30 to 35 ft lbs (i.e. .375 H&H in a gun of reasonable weight, e.g. 9 1/2 lbs for a typical scoped bolt action), with a scope properly located (I am tempted to say 'as far forward as mechanically possible')... Or use a 'scout scope' or a red dot over the front action ring if you want to eliminate entirely the risk.

PS: truth be told, now that few guns have a steel butt plate, I suspect that few folks are actually hurt by recoil on the shoulder - people generally rock back with the recoil; but most recoil frights are born in the sharp pain of a scope cut...

Bullet construction: another well-discussed issue. I am on record (somewhere on this website) for sharing having had several 210 gr Nosler Partition bullets disintegrate on a Moose shoulder at very short range at maximum .340 Wby speed. It does happen! Interestingly, it must have happened enough that Weatherby quietly stopped offering that load 20 or so years ago... Which comforts me in thinking that this too boils down to the individual hunter. We ought to select the load based on what will be shot, and at (likely) what distance (i.e. speed). My personal experiential learning is that I shoot nothing lighter than .250 gr in a .340 Wby, and - so far ? - I have been entirely satisfied with the .250 gr Partition. I am also on record for shooting tougher A Frames from the .416 Rigby (I still have a stash of 300 gr Partition Federal Premium .375 H&H but will likely replace them with A Frames when gone), and relying on even tougher solids (either old style-like DGS, or new style-like mono-metals on follow up shots on buff). Actually, mono-metals in .458 Lott and DGS in .470 NE, because my confidence in the early mono-metals got quite shaken when A Square Monolithics pushed the rifling of my double rifle outside the barrels. I understand that this has been addressed a long time ago but it is still hard to teach new tricks to old dogs ;-)

I reckon that we now have enough bullet choices, to be able to shoot about anything at about any speed (whether it is smart or not ;-)...

 

[One Day...]

Come to think of it, a fifth factor in the recoil equation would be: how often do you shoot the "big guns"? You DO get used to it, IF you have proper technique, the gun is of proper weight, and the scope does not cut you every time you pull the trigger...

 

[Rob404]

I own a Vanguard in 257 caliber and It's a Hoot to Shoot and has one of the best triggers I ever pulled

 

[Bas]

Wholeheartedly agreed in principle with everything said by @1dirthawker, @rookhawk, and @Bas as regards bullet construction, speed, recoil, etc. with the following caveats:

Recoil: this is very personal issue. Most of us have a threshold. Some cringe at 15 to 20 ft lbs (.270 Win to .30-06); some - God bless them! - are happy at 100 ft lbs (.460 Wby); I personally reach my limit around 80 ft lbs (.458 Lott and .470 NE).
I personally see 4 factors at play:
i) what did you learn to shoot with? If you are a younger shooter who learned on a semi auto AR (.223) your sense of "normal" is pretty low (3 to 5 ft lbs!). I learned in the French Alps, not too long after WWII when there were a few 8mm (7.92 actually) Mauser K98 and/or .303 Lee–Enfield SMLE in every farm, so my baseline started a little higher (20 ft lbs).
ii) how good is your technique? This is critically important. You cannot shoot a "big gun" the way you see so many folks (sadly including many of our soldiers) handling an AR or M4, with the tip of stock butt loosely and partially contacting a random point on the top of the shoulder.
iii) what is the weight of the gun? The current rage for "guide guns" and "ultra light" guns is, in my humble opinion, gravely misguided. It ignores the fact that one of the primary roles of gun weight is to absorb recoil, whether it be a shotgun or a rifle. A .340 Wby in a 10 1/2 lbs gun is no worries to me; but I would adamantly decline shooting a 6 lbs .340 Wby...
iv) where is your scope? Too many scopes are mounted way too far back on "big guns." You should need to stretch your neck pretty hard forward to get a complete clean view of the ocular. It actually has zero bearing whatsoever on your field aim if you see a blurred black ring around your reticle, and it buys you the additional inch or two that insure that you do not get cut when you pull the trigger on a snap shot.

I reckon that most anyone properly taught should be able to handle 30 to 35 ft lbs (i.e. .375 H&H in a gun of reasonable weight, e.g. 9 1/2 lbs for a typical scoped bolt action), with a scope properly located (I am tempted to say 'as far forward as mechanically possible')... Or use a 'scout scope' or a red dot over the front action ring if you want to eliminate entirely the risk.

PS: truth be told, now that few guns have a steel butt plate, I suspect that few folks are actually hurt by recoil on the shoulder - people generally rock back with the recoil; but most recoil frights are born in the sharp pain of a scope cut...

Bullet construction: another well-discussed issue. I am on record (somewhere on this website) for sharing having had several 210 gr Nosler Partition bullets disintegrate on a Moose shoulder at very short range at maximum .340 Wby speed. It does happen! Interestingly, it must have happened enough that Weatherby quietly stopped offering that load 20 or so years ago... Which comforts me in thinking that this too boils down to the individual hunter. We ought to select the load based on what will be shot, and at (likely) what distance (i.e. speed). My personal experiential learning is that I shoot nothing lighter than .250 gr in a .340 Wby, and - so far ? - I have been entirely satisfied with the .250 gr Partition. I am also on record for shooting tougher A Frames from the .416 Rigby (I still have a stash of 300 gr Partition Federal Premium .375 H&H but will likely replace them with A Frames when gone), and relying on even tougher solids (either old style-like DGS, or new style-like mono-metals on follow up shots on buff). Actually, mono-metals in .458 Lott and DGS in .470 NE, because my confidence in the early mono-metals got quite shaken when A Square Monolithics pushed the rifling of my double rifle outside the barrels. I understand that this has been addressed a long time ago but it is still hard to teach new tricks to old dogs ;-)

I reckon that we now have enough bullet choices, to be able to shoot about anything at about any speed (whether it is smart or not ;-)...

I would like to be able to call you by your first name if permitted. My guess is you'd be quite a conversationalist with multiple topics.
I agree with every aspect of your post. Hadn't heard about the double rifling issue until reading about it close to a month ago.
I also think most people mount their optics to far rearward, and if needed to shoot from the prone, find out too late. Because of the local vegetation and terrain shooting prone is a rarity. In over 45 years of hunting here I have used that position for deer hunting ONCE.
Best wishes, Bob