Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[WINCHESTER JAKE]

I have a custom made 460 Weatherby made by Art alpine. It is called an Asquare rifle without a muzzle brake. It is heavier than most rifles and has a wider shoulder pad in the back. Double tap made me up some 350 grain Swift Aframe bullets at 2900 ft./s. The rifle is now more comfortable to shoot than a 30/06. I have taken many hogs with this in Arkansas. When I shoot them they just lay down and don’t go anywhere. I asked a couple of pH is at the Dallas Safari club and they said that load should be adequate for cape buffalo. I am going to have double tap put me together some cartridges with Swift Aframe Bullets 400 grains and 450 grain bullets at different speeds to find out the upper end of what I am really comfortable with before I go to Africa. When I find that slightly heavier load that I am comfortable with I intend to use it to shoot quite a bit of hogs here in Arkansas before I try to take it across the pond to Africa. I do know that I do not like the full heavy load of a 500 grain bullet doing 2700 ft./s. When I first got my 460 Weatherby rifle from Weatherby, before I got my custom Asquare rifle, I shot a few of those loads. And that rifle took a great shine to kicking my butt every time I pulled the trigger and I found out that That load gives me too bad of a whoopin. But with my heavy custom Asquare rifle and reduced loads it is easy and comfortable to shoot.
PS my reduced loads consistantly shoot Groups just under 2 inches at 200 yards. I have it sighted in at 200 yards zero.

 

[Lee M]

That is a thumper! Could likely take a T-Rex... I still can’t imagine it compares to an .06 unless shooting in a led sled.

 

[EfRed]

I'm a long time shooter, but have not hunted much. Mostly pistols, big bore pistols, which force you to handle recoil if you want to hit anything. I do have and like to shoot rifles as well. Among my rifles are 4 Weatherby Mark Vs, a 375 Safari Custom, a 340, a 300 (my fathers), and a 30-06. My first shot with the 300 was about 55 years ago, standing, at a rock about 350 yds away, about 2ft x 1.5 feet, in front of my Dad. I was nervous. Holding slightly high, I did break the rock, though the unexpectedly fast recoil lifted the rifle briefly out of my hands. Later, I learned to hold onto it a little better. I suppose this shot shows the 300 Mk V at its best, higher long range impact velocity and energy. It didn't hurt to shoot this rifle, it just had a surpisingly rapid recoil.

The 340 I haven't yet shot much, having just bought it. With reasonable handloads and a 200 Speer HotCor, it's very comfortable to shoot, not really different than the 300. I just got some 250's to play with, and expect more recoil from them, but less recoil impulse. For a general purpose rifle outside of buffalo and elephant country, it's about perfect, to me. Covers both end of things for NA very well.

The 375 Safari Custom is a superb and beautiful rifle, very nice wood. With the Weatherby factory loads, 300 gr Nosler Partition at 2800 fps (nominal), it does hurt the shoulder a little bit, so I limit the number of rounds I fire at a setting. Cost is also a factor with this round. The most excellent point is that it can be loaded down to 375 Ruger and to 375 H&H velocities, and is then very comfortable to shoot. So, if your really need the long range impact velocity and energy, the 375 Wby is a pretty good cartridge. If you are in a hunting situation, by all means load to the least necessary level. Or, just drop in some 375 H&Hs, which seem to function well in the rifle. It is heavy, about 11 lbs. For me, this is too heavy for a DGR, which needs to handle nimbly, damn the recoil. Same comment on my Ruger 458 Lott.

I've not shot the 30-06 yet, due to Covid19, but it handles very nicely, with a 24" bbl.

The low bolt lift is a great asset. So is the smooth action. I'm not particular happy with the Weatherby stock's appearance, though it does have some appeal, but I find it a very comfortable and effective stock to shoot and it comes to the shoulder well and quickly.

My father taught me when I was 10 years old to jam the bolt at both ends, to ensure complete cycling; this habit ensures the reliability of both push feed and CRF actions. The habit allows the full advantage of the low bolt lift of this action. So I'm having a custom rifle built on a Mk V action in 458 Lott, composite stock, with hi-vis fiber optic iron sights, to weigh ~ 8 to 8.5 lbs prior to scope. ​

There is no doubt that recoil will be vicious in this rifle with full house 500 gr of 550 gr bullets. But I'll mostly shoot 350's loaded to 2600-2700 or so, which is a much tamer beast. If a circus elephant goes mad here in town, I'll just take the scope off, load some 500s, and get fairly close. If I get the elephant, I think the city will probably pay to have my unconscious body trucked back in from the next county. That said, there is a notable lack of wild elephants in my neighborhood, due no doubt to the presence of my elephant rifles and my own eternal vigilance.

I've always wondered about the 378, the 416, and the 460. These are very special purpose cartridges. I've chosen to save myself the trouble, and avoid them. You can practice and learn to control the rifle even with these rounds, but no real point unless you are a PH and need the big boom for backup. Even then, I'd probably pick a 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs or a 500 NE, to avoid that vicious recoil impulse. The recoil with these old cartridges is still very substantial. IF the 450 NE was effective for hunting, then so are the 458 WM and the 458 Lott.

So, my 2 cents on Weatherbys. Good rifles, some good cartridges which do extend effective range, despite Mr. C. Hawkes' MEPB range concept. He should also remember that 30 extra yds is 30 extra yds, and that energy at impact deserves consideration.

Pooh-poohing others choice of gun & cartridge is an arrogant exercise. Weatherby's as good as anything else, when properly applied - a pro-viso that applies to all rifle cartridge combinations. A good PH may fear his client, but shouldn't, without reason, fear his choice of rifle and cartridge. Also, the world being what it is, a PH needs to focus on teaching the ignorant, and saving those resistant to his teaching.

 

[rookhawk]

Why? Many reasons why.

1.) the weatherby clientele has a reputation for buying excessive recoil guns they cannot control or use properly.

2.) every PH has a horror story related to clients shooting weatherby they could not control, or that was shot a few times off a lead sled and now has some break/malady discovered during a charge.

3.) they are push feed

4.) they often have muzzle breaks and that is ridiculously annoying and painful for everyone left/right of the shooter.

5.) there is this new money reputation with weatherby owners occasionally. They think they’ve bought an expensive gun and that it’s the best when it’s neither. This creates a false sense of confidence in an ill informed client that bought because he heard they were powerful and “the best you can get” with little practice, research, or awareness in one’s abilities. Yes, they are better than all the $300 guns with tasco scopes they owner had in their collection already, but it is not a “great gun”. It’s a brand awareness that says this is the best, most expensive gun you can buy at a shopping mall so it’s great. These are the guys going on a $50,000 hunt with a $1500 gun and they don’t know better.

obviously, these are stereotypes and as such, many exceptions exist, but for what one spends on a weatherby there are hundreds of superior choices for many applications.

I’ve never been shown a weatherby by an owner where they didn’t clearly think they owned the best, most elite, finest rifle in the world. Usually, I’d have a stack of the finest rifles in the world on the shooting bench next to them which they browsed, assumed were piles of shit, and didn’t even inquire. It’s an odd but consistent phenomenon I’ve experienced.

I’m not saying don’t own mediocre guns, I own some real turds. It’s just being self aware of what is crap, what is mediocre, and what is exceptional that is important. Most people don’t know what is appropriate and what is good and why. They just bought the most expensive thing bass pro had for sale. (My 7 year old walks into Cabelas, looks at all the guns in the library, and says “all the sell here is junk” and walks out)

 

[Ray B]

In addition to what Rookhawk noted, I will add that I think the biggest liability to the perception of Weatherby owners was Roy Weatherby's doctrine of hydrostatic pressure killing animals which was interpreted by some as a hit ANYWHERE on the animal resulted in pressure traveling through the veins and arteries of the animal and exploding the brain, heart and lungs. The believers of this doctrine concluded that they could hit a large animal in the hind leg and the shot would be instantly fatal. So they were buying the ability to kill game and had no need to practice or even sight-in the rifle. The results were very disappointing to all involved especially when it involved some guide that had to clean up the mess.

However, not all Weatherby owners were believers. Some, like my dad liked the styling of the FN Deluxe rifles and the increased performance to the 300 Weatherby cartridge compared to the others available in 1955- The PlainJane Remington 721 or the very standard Winchester 70 available in 300 H&H. He never felt ridicule from a guide regarding his choice of rifles but then he focused on personal abilities rather than purchased accessories.

 

[rookhawk]

Add to that Ray B, while I’m not a fan of weatherby made guns, and not a fan of DG weatherby calibers, old Roy’s ideas did hold weight with small bores. If I ever find a mid-century custom Mauser in .257 weatherby cartridge, I will own one. For America, In Small bores, in light recoil calibers, the 300-and-under weatherby cartridges were excellent, especially the 257 and 270.

But agree, a lot of unpracticed idiots go out west with new 300 and 340 weatherby guns and sling lead, confused why ass shots don’t kill bulk elk.

In addition to what Rookhawk noted, I will add that I think the biggest liability to the perception of Weatherby owners was Roy Weatherby's doctrine of hydrostatic pressure killing animals which was interpreted by some as a hit ANYWHERE on the animal resulted in pressure traveling through the veins and arteries of the animal and exploding the brain, heart and lungs. The believers of this doctrine concluded that they could hit a large animal in the hind leg and the shot would be instantly fatal. So they were buying the ability to kill game and had no need to practice or even sight-in the rifle. The results were very disappointing to all involved especially when it involved some guide that had to clean up the mess.

However, not all Weatherby owners were believers. Some, like my dad liked the styling of the FN Deluxe rifles and the increased performance to the 300 Weatherby cartridge compared to the others available in 1955- The PlainJane Remington 721 or the very standard Winchester 70 available in 300 H&H. He never felt ridicule from a guide regarding his choice of rifles but then he focused on personal abilities rather than purchased accessories.

 

[Von S.]

Why? Many reasons why.

1.) the weatherby clientele has a reputation for buying excessive recoil guns they cannot control or use properly.

2.) every PH has a horror story related to clients shooting weatherby they could not control, or that was shot a few times off a lead sled and now has some break/malady discovered during a charge.

3.) they are push feed

4.) they often have muzzle breaks and that is ridiculously annoying and painful for everyone left/right of the shooter.

5.) there is this new money reputation with weatherby owners occasionally. They think they’ve bought an expensive gun and that it’s the best when it’s neither. This creates a false sense of confidence in an ill informed client that bought because he heard they were powerful and “the best you can get” with little practice, research, or awareness in one’s abilities. Yes, they are better than all the $300 guns with tasco scopes they owner had in their collection already, but it is not a “great gun”. It’s a brand awareness that says this is the best, most expensive gun you can buy at a shopping mall so it’s great. These are the guys going on a $50,000 hunt with a $1500 gun and they don’t know better.

obviously, these are stereotypes and as such, many exceptions exist, but for what one spends on a weatherby there are hundreds of superior choices for many applications.

I’ve never been shown a weatherby by an owner where they didn’t clearly think they owned the best, most elite, finest rifle in the world. Usually, I’d have a stack of the finest rifles in the world on the shooting bench next to them which they browsed, assumed were piles of shit, and didn’t even inquire. It’s an odd but consistent phenomenon I’ve experienced.

I’m not saying don’t own mediocre guns, I own some real turds. It’s just being self aware of what is crap, what is mediocre, and what is exceptional that is important. Most people don’t know what is appropriate and what is good and why. They just bought the most expensive thing bass pro had for sale. (My 7 year old walks into Cabelas, looks at all the guns in the library, and says “all the sell here is junk” and walks out)

You seem to be pretty vehement about your dislike of Weatherby rifles, rounds and people who own them.

Is that what the 7 year old told you what to say?

 

[Ray B]

Above is a photograph of my dad's Weatherby. It is as purchased 65 years ago except for some wear and tear obtained from being carried in several mountain states and procuring several deer and elk. It differs greatly from the Weatherbys of today. It was made in the SouthGate shop on an FN action and an in shop barrel. The stock was standard for the time and either you liked it or your didn't. My taste runs along more conservative lines but I still admit to liking the rifle and value all of the fond memories it carries with it of trips with dad.

 

[IvW]

You seem to be pretty vehement about your dislike of Weatherby rifles, rounds and people who own them.

Is that what the 7 year old told you what to say?

Clever kid...

 

[rookhawk]

You seem to be pretty vehement about your dislike of Weatherby rifles, rounds and people who own them.

Is that what the 7 year old told you what to say?

It’s not vehement, it’s just the answer I gave when you asked “why don’t people like weatherby rifles”. I gave you 5 answers, any which you could choose. I further added that my kids, ages 7-10 can detect the low quality in weatherby and the rest of the shopping mall guns right away, although they would not be able to articulate ballistics as well as an adult.

the good news if you like weatherby magnum Africa rifles is that they are by far the least worn, used guns I’ve seen. I’ve seen dozens for sale over the years and none had more than a box of shells through them. Three times in my life I’ve bought boxes of weatherby cartridges cheap that has 19 rounds in the “partial box”. There is probably something to this phenomenon.

Another odd thing, you find $4000 weatherbys at pawn shops cheap, but you are less likely to find $4000 British rifles at pawn shops cheap. Yet there are far more British sporting rifles (and German) in the USA Today than there are weatherbys. So again, what makes a weatherby “pawn shop worthy” and not the others of equal original MSRP?

 

[grand veneur]

In addition to what Rookhawk noted, I will add that I think the biggest liability to the perception of Weatherby owners was Roy Weatherby's doctrine of hydrostatic pressure killing animals which was interpreted by some as a hit ANYWHERE on the animal resulted in pressure traveling through the veins and arteries of the animal and exploding the brain, heart and lungs. The believers of this doctrine concluded that they could hit a large animal in the hind leg and the shot would be instantly fatal. So they were buying the ability to kill game and had no need to practice or even sight-in the rifle. The results were very disappointing to all involved especially when it involved some guide that had to clean up the mess.

However, not all Weatherby owners were believers. Some, like my dad liked the styling of the FN Deluxe rifles and the increased performance to the 300 Weatherby cartridge compared to the others available in 1955- The PlainJane Remington 721 or the very standard Winchester 70 available in 300 H&H. He never felt ridicule from a guide regarding his choice of rifles but then he focused on personal abilities rather than purchased accessories.

The old hunters shouldn't be made more stupid than they were. I am one of them.

The doctrine of the Hydrostatic Pressure was common 50 years ago and many well-known authors and hunters believed in it and spread it. Roy Weatherby has only followed one trend , certainly for commercial reasons , but he wanted to live and earn money like many others. In the meantime we know that this theory is not correct.

Nevertheless , the Weatherby cartridges remain very good cartridges that keep their promises. They are magnum cartridges that due to they recoil are not suitable for every hunter. Those who don't master such cartridges have to let it and don't have to spread anything negative about them.

I've been reading for 50 years the same nonsense about Weatherby cartridges , especially the big ones like the 460WM.

 

[rookhawk]

View attachment 340521

Above is a photograph of my dad's Weatherby. It is as purchased 65 years ago except for some wear and tear obtained from being carried in several mountain states and procuring several deer and elk. It differs greatly from the Weatherbys of today. It was made in the SouthGate shop on an FN action and an in shop barrel. The stock was standard for the time and either you liked it or your didn't. My taste runs along more conservative lines but I still admit to liking the rifle and value all of the fond memories it carries with it of trips with dad.

That's not a weatherby, Ray. That's a Mauser masterpiece made by a guy named Roy in a nice caliber. Muddling the two is like comparing a Ferrari made by Enzo Ferrari to a Ferrari made by HotWheels.

 

[Ray B]

That's not a weatherby, Ray. That's a Mauser masterpiece made by a guy named Roy in a nice caliber. Muddling the two is like comparing a Ferrari made by Enzo Ferrari to a Ferrari made by HotWheels.

Analogous to those rifles made in New Haven prior to 1964? I suppose I should call it a Pre-Mark V model.

 

[JimP]

When it comes down to it there are hunters that head off to African who can not shoot their 375H&H, 404 Jefferies, 416's, 458's, and so on accurately. This isn't a Weatherby problem. Some have said that there is a problem with the Weatherby MKV safety where the firearm will go off when the safety is released and while this is the case in some it is usually tracked down to a backyard gunsmith trying to lighten the trigger pull to a hair trigger. 90% of any rifle will go off when you set them to a hair trigger and the safety is released. I will admit that there can be problems with Weatherby ammo where it is hotter than it should be and when in a country where the climate is hotter than normal it will result in stuck bolts when fired. This can be rectified by hand loading and not loading to the maximum pressures for that load.

The biggest hype on rifles can be traced back to magazine articles where the authors are telling us nimrods to bring the biggest rifle and caliber to Africa to hunt with. That all African animals will hunt you down after the shot if you don't drop them in one shot. We read all about the 500-600 Nitro Express rounds and figure that we need something just as capable to hunt with but with a modern round.

Myself I don't see it as a rifle or clambering problem but the person that is pulling the trigger problem that just doesn't understand.

 

[Tanks]

Why? Many reasons why.

1.) the weatherby clientele has a reputation for buying excessive recoil guns they cannot control or use properly.

2.) every PH has a horror story related to clients shooting weatherby they could not control, or that was shot a few times off a lead sled and now has some break/malady discovered during a charge.
...

I don't have a dog in the fight as I don't have any experience with the Weatherby rifles.

Just for grins I put the ballistics of a .460 Weatherby in a recoil calculator. Came out to 100 ft/lbs (assuming 11 lbs rifle with scope), quite a bit higher then the measly 68 - 81 ft/lbs recoil of my own various DG rifles. But, not unmanageable, I think .505 Gibbs has more recoil and people hunt with it successfully.

That being said I'd say items 1 and 2 are definite exaggerations. In regards to item 1 you are going by your own anecdotal observations, I had not heard of item one in any of the ranges I frequent. Then again, I don't know anyone that has a Weatherby as I don't go around checking everyone's rifles at the range.

In regards to item two I doubt if every PH sits around the camp fire bad mouthing previous clients. It just does not make good business sense. That is like going on a date and spending the time bad mouthing your ex instead of selling yourself. Time around the camp is two fold, one is to show a client a good time and build a relationship. Two is leveraging the former for a future hunt if not directly at least by building a good rapport so the client will think of him again. That is not going to happen by being negative towards past clients.

Did some Weatherby owner disrespect your rifles?

Edit: I guess they did.

...
I’ve never been shown a weatherby by an owner where they didn’t clearly think they owned the best, most elite, finest rifle in the world. Usually, I’d have a stack of the finest rifles in the world on the shooting bench next to them which they browsed, assumed were piles of shit, and didn’t even inquire. It’s an odd but consistent phenomenon I’ve experienced.
...

​

 

[Major Khan]

Back when I used to be a professional shikaree , guiding clients for shikar in India from 1961 to 1970 .... Weatherby rifles and calibres were ALL the rage . About 1 in 5 clients used to bring them .
Based on my personal experiences with rifles brought by my clients... I do not personally think too highly of Weatherby rifles or calibres ( except perhaps , the .300 Weatherby magnum calibre ) . I am not saying that Weatherby rifles and calibres are by any means , BAD . No. I merely personally do not think too highly of them . Let us use the .460 Weatherby magnum and the Weatherby Mark 5 bolt rifle , as an example .
1stly - The recoil makes a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle or a .476 Westley Richards calibre rifle's recoil look like a .22 Long Rifle calibre weapon in comparison .
2ndly - I have seen Weatherby Mark 5 bolt rifles experience extraction issues in the field more than twice . These were not ordinary Weatherby Mark 5 bolt rifles either . Back in those days , Weatherby used to have a service called a " custom shop " ( perhaps , they still do ? ) and some of these rifles were from Weatherby's custom shop . I made some notes of these occurrences and I noticed 1 thing in common . With 1 exception , each and every single 1 of these occurrences ( extraction failures ) happened in the hottest parts of India , where I was guiding my clients ( such as Nagpur or Rajasthan ) .

3rdly - Mr. Roy Weatherby ( while extremely talented and innovative in his own right ) seemed to focus more on velocity , than other factors when designing his calibres . This proved to be counter productive ( especially with the bullets available during our time . ) in the field .

Factory loaded .460 Weatherby magnum calibre ammunition used to be loaded with 500 grain Hornady solid metal covered bullets , at the time . These 500 grain Hornady bullets were also available as a re loading component for .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition . Hornady used to produce some of the finest solid metal covered bullets , during our time . The steel "jackets" were exceptionally strong and thick . When fired from a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle , they could be relied upon , to break the shoulder bone of a large 2000 pound male gaur bison and penetrate in to the heart without experiencing any distortion , whatsoever .However , in Weatherby's factory loaded ammunition ... these very same bullets were prone to distortion all too often .

The excessive velocities were causing the bullets to distort at times , especially when fired at heavy game . I personally do not believe that a calibre for hunting dangerous game should have a velocity of much above 2350 - 2400 feet per second .

There is a way to circumvent this problem , however . If the operator hand loads his own ammunition and lowers the powder charge .... then better results can be had . Recoil becomes more manageable and bullet distortion becomes non existent .

Of course , I have no illusions about all of my personal experiences being from more than 50 years ago . Without a doubt , technological advancements in terms of fire arms and bullet manufacturing processes over the last 50 years may have improved the reliability of Weatherby cartridges , considerably .
The modern monolithic solid brass bullet , for example .... I am reasonably confident that it could resist distortion even at the excessively high velocities of Weatherby calibres.
However , I still do personally not care too much for Weatherby rifles or calibres .
I never ever saw a repeat client bring a Weatherby rifle for his 2nd shikar to India , in my career . Especially , when dangerous game was concerned .

 

[Velo Dog]

Fellow Hunters,

Weatherby rifles and cartridges do not appeal to me, neither in looks or performance.
However, for those who enjoy super high velocity, I say you should enjoy those products.
They are not necessarily unclean just because myself or anyone else doesn’t prefer them.
In other words, you can ignore grumpy old mongrels (like me for instance), making wisecracks in pubs about whatever topic pops up, after a couple of pints are chugged, including rifles and cartridges.

Plus, I will say one good thing regarding extra fast cartridges though, including the Weatherby ones.
It is that finally as of late, there are bullets available to withstand such extra-high impact velocity when impacting heavy bones.
It’s no secret that, I lean hard toward nostalgic things, including hunting rifles and cartridges (“If it works, don’t fix it”).
Putting a 4x scope in lever rings and using Swift A-Frame bullets is about as modern and risqué as I care to go.

So far, I have yet to experience a situation wherein I said to myself, “Dang, I wish I had brought a rifle / cartridge combination that would’ve provided me with 2 or 3 hundred more feet per second”.
Conversely, if I were one to lean toward the monolithic expanding bullets, (and monkeys were flying out of my butt) no doubt I’d want that extra speed, IE: something like a Weatherby or Ultramag, etc., in order to better ensure such hard bullets will not be as likely to stay in spitzer shape as they pass through flesh and bone.

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[Tanks]

...
It’s no secret that, I lean hard toward nostalgia things, including hunting rifles and cartridges (“If it works, don’t fix it).

No arguments on that from me. That is why very recently I purchased a Heym 88B in .500 NE even though I had a very capable .500 caliber bolt rifle.

 

[Mike Van Horn]

There is nothing wrong with Weatherby rifles!
Match the cartridge and the bullet to the game!

 

[Rob404]

I shot a 257 Vanguard at the range once and liked the way it shot recoil wasn't that bad and I liked the looks. so when one became available at a good price I bought it. It's most likely going to Africa on my next trip,