Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[IvW]

IvW,

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated,
A few years ago, I saw a film of elephants culling, all shot with military rifles. Nothing was mentioned about ammunition. I know pertinently that when hunting elephants shots are very shorts and the same may apply for buffalo and that large slow moving projectiles are known performers.

The fact we're discussing two different sets of circumstances, different geographical locations, games in different continents and at different distances doesn't mean I don't understand or disagree. It is the insistence of not needing the extra distance that baffles me. At times, it is useful to have. Game doesn't crawl between the legs in the mountains and on the last day of a long costly hunt if the only shot that presents itself in difficult terrain is within my capabilities but considered by some to be long, I'll take it. I've done it quite successfully. It isn't however the shot I'll take on the first nor second day or a hunt. I don't plan on doing it in Africa where circumstances are so vastly different.

I personally use middle of the road cartridges, if you read some of my posts. I often use a 30-06. I am against very long shots for all the reasons you took the trouble to mention. I am already very familiar with them.

I thank you for the long explanation but can assure you I have been well aware about the advantages and pitfalls you describe for decades. Thank you nevertheless for taking the trouble. It is sincerely appreciated.

I have done and continue to do a lot of bow hunting. I use a long bow or a recurve with no sights and make my own arrows. My shots are usually under 20 yards. Regardless of the game. I shot a very large black bear at under 10 yards and not from a tree stand, in a state where firearms were not allowed during bow season. I believe in spot and stalk and don't care too much for making up for a lack in those skills by compensating with outlandishly long shots. I don't consider it hunting. However I still maintain that there is a place for the heavy Weatherbys for those who like them and can shoot them. I was never interested in the super mags but I've seen them brought to their potential by those who liked them. I limit myself to standard 300 magnums and 375 H&H improved (my own cartridge, the rifle can still shoot regular H&H rounds) and I'm currently looking at a 416 of some kind or 404 Jeffery to buy.

Thank you again for your very detailed email.

Best regards,

Paul

Their certainly is a place for them and as you mention, as long as you can handle the recoil. However I have yet to meet someone who can handle full power loads in 378, 416 or 460 Weatherby while hunting African DG.

The one exception to the rule must be the 357 AI, an excellent idea if you use the extra case capacity to fire the heavier bullets at respectable velocity. And with as you rightfully mention the capability to fire standard 374 H&H ammo if needed, makes it a sensible choice and may rightfully be an "Improvement" on the standard H&H.

 

[larry4831]

Think about it. Weatherby is a high dollar product compared to many other brands--even considering a non-Weatherby cartridge in a Weatherby rifle.
Add to that is the fact that some Weatherby owners I have know are(Status, try to impress) type of people. Their hunting/shooting skills often are minimal.
Put another way --as my PH said---"There are born hunters and then there are money made hunters" The born hunters know their firearm/bow and (have practiced)know how to use it. They also know how to hunt and usually the tape measure is not the most important thing. They are enjoyable to be with and when things go wrong accept it as part of hunting.
I have personally run into hunters who show up with brand new camo, a new rifle and scope(usually expensive), looking for a record book or at least super bragging animal(usually want it tied to a tree close to camp and the truck) and then complain about everything but their poor shooting ability if (Actually when) they miss. After all they had the rifle bore-sighted at the gun shop

Born hunters can show up with a Weatherby and after proving themselves leave a good impression.

Money made hunters are not really hunters in my eyes and leave a bad taste(impression) with most people in camp. Especially when they are more concerned about drinking and bragging what a great person they are, a great hunter with mounts on their office walls, who they know, how much money they make and how they are better than most others. All ego and no skill.

All the above works against the Weatherby name plus the super shiny(no help when hunting) fancy stocks and such on many of their rifles. Working people often look at those rifles "look at me", show-off rifles and not "using tools"

All that said I have a 257W that I really like. It is the cheapest MK V they make with syn stock and not highly blued barrel/action. It is a "Hunting" and used by a "born Hunter" according to my PH and people who know me.

I have a Weatherby 257 mag and I really love it. It's the Vanguard model but it's the range certified . The 100 Grain TSX it will really lay them in there, I wish I would have discovered that caliber 40 years ago.

 

[IvW]

Yes some Weatherby rifles indeed have some safety issues.(I have experienced two AD's with clients using them). Both of them swore and insisted that they did not pull or touch the trigger, one rifle fired when the safety was disengaged the other as the bolt was closed on a chambered round. One was a 340 the other a 300 Weatherby.

Personally I have also had a "problem" with a Weatherby.

Many years ago I got given a Weatherby Mark V in 460 Weatherby by a Spanish client. He had the rifle built in the Weatherby custom shop.

Having no need for a 460 Weatherby(I use a 500 Jeff for DG back-up), I took of the barrel gave that back to him and kept the action and stock for many years.

Having read about how strong the actions are and also their inherent accuracy potential, I eventually had a 338 Lapua Magnum barrel fitted.(I know it sounds crazy but the follies of youth!). This is a 30 1/2 inch match barrel and chamber cut to accommodate 300 grain bullets.

I currently shoot 300 grain Accubonds(@2650 fps) and 286 grain Barnes X @ 2750 fps. A long range toy if you like.

One day I chamber a round and take aim at an Impala ram out at 305 meters. I squeeze the trigger and nothing happens. Ok dud round that happens, I thought. Chamber the second round and the same thing happens!!

Ok now what! Take the second round from the chamber and make the rifle safe. Inspection of the rounds show that there is a mark from the firing pin on the primer.

I suspect a broken firing pin. I inspect the firing pin, no issues it looks fine. I then start looking at the action, slowly opening and closing it to try and see what is going on. Low and behold, the firing pin slams forward just as the bolt is closed. Further inspection reveals that there is a allen key bolt in the top between the rails of the action, this bolt is loose and does not hold the sear all the way to the top. This sear engages the firing pin as the action is closed. The bottom of the sear is part of the trigger.

I put locktite on the bolt tightened it down and never had this problem again. I was lucky to have picked this up without having an AD.

So yes, make sure your Weatherby operates as intended and be safe.

This is the most accurate rifle I have ever owned, it is a nice tool for long range shooting.

I would personally however not use one on DG, irrespective of caliber. Then again I would also not use a 458 Win in any make either.

Having received a PM from somebody who has had the same issue I thought I will try and clarify this issue with a picture.

Below is a picture of the top of the action with the bolt removed. If you look at the recess in the stock where the bolt handle fits in when you close the bolt, you will see the allen key bolt. Just in front of the allen key bolt(right hand side in the picture) is the round pin/plunger/sear that engages with the firing pin as the action is closed. I think the round shape helps make the trigger as smooth and good as it is. Mauser/Brno types are square or flat and not round. This small allen bolt needs to be tight in order to keep the pin/plunger/sear in place.

This is a supremely accurate rifle but since this issue I always check this bolt/screw and am very conscious of the problem I had and make 100% sure where the barrel is pointed when I load the rifle.

Here is a picture of the rifle.

 

[Rule 303]

Just my 2 bobs worth on some of the comments.

Bell did take a few Ele with the 6.5 calibre but in the end was not keen on it. The long -read very long for calibre - bullets of the day "tail tried to catch up with the nose" on hitting elephant skull. Or similar is what Bell said. That is the bullet bent and as such tended to lack straight line penetration. This does not happen with modern bullets as far as I know.

Re the RUM rounds. These are nothing more than a 404J necked down and blown out. However there are people who can not handle the recoil so should not be using them. Do they have a place, my oath they do. I would happily hunt Elephant with my 338/358Rum Loaded with 300grain soft nose or the Hydrostatic bullets and if I was capable of holding for a 400mt shot I would shot boars to Camels with it with 200-250 grain projectiles. But 340 Weatherby's and up I find hard to handle because the recoil is vicious, sharp so do not have them. So when it comes to recoil lets blame the shooter not the round. The round can not make any choices the human can and does.

I think we need to cut our friends who's first language is not English a bit of slack. It is very hard to give a proper sense of sarcasm, taking the piss etc when it is your first language. Shit Aussie and Americans have the same slang words but they have totally different or opposite meanings. Using the emoticon can help big time though. Shite, just went looking for the sarcasm smiley and couldn't find it. Probably had a blokes look.

 

[IvW]

Just my 2 bobs worth on some of the comments.

I would happily hunt Elephant with my 338/358Rum Loaded with 300grain soft nose or the Hydrostatic bullets ......

The round can not make any choices the human can and does.

That would be a very foolish thing to try, apart from being illegal and will probably only get you or somebody else in the hunting party killed. Rather stick to calibers that are legal and have a proven track record when hunting elephant!

As you state make the right choice!

338/358 RUM is the wrong choice!!

 

[Rule 303]

That would be a very foolish thing to try, apart from being illegal and will probably only get you or somebody else in the hunting party killed. Rather stick to calibers that are legal and have a proven track record when hunting elephant!

As you state make the right choice!

338/358 RUM is the wrong choice!!

No not illegal in Namibia and not foolish with the right bullets. Remember Bell and a lot of others used way less and Taylor used the Rigby 35 N02 which is not as powerful.

Would I do it, hell yes if the conditions were right. That is I had the chance to shoot a lot of Ele so I knew them backwards. The 338/358 RUM is more than enough. Will I do it , no, the 416 Rigby just screams to be used

 

[Paul Homsy]

Their certainly is a place for them and as you mention, as long as you can handle the recoil. However I have yet to meet someone who can handle full power loads in 378, 416 or 460 Weatherby while hunting African DG.

The one exception to the rule must be the 357 AI, an excellent idea if you use the extra case capacity to fire the heavier bullets at respectable velocity. And with as you rightfully mention the capability to fire standard 374 H&H ammo if needed, makes it a sensible choice and may rightfully be an "Improvement" on the standard H&H.

I happen to agree with you about the full power loads. Too much for me anyway.

My 375 improved is not an AI, I asked the gunsmith who bored the chamber to straighten the case as in the AI and 375 Weatherby but with a more gentle shoulder than the AI while keeping away from the double radius Weatherby shoulder. I gave specific dimensions in order to have a neck longer than one caliber by a decent margin but without impeding too much on powder capacity. I then took a chamber cast and sent it to R.C.B.S. in Oroville, Ca and they did the dies for me. They work perfectly. The cartridge has also worked exceptionally well as far as accuracy and substantially increased speed while not showing signs of pressure. For hunting, I load down by two to three grains of powder to allow a safety margin and only use extruded powders, the ball powders being more sensitive to temperature changes (according to the manufacturers I spoke to directly).

I did this over 30 years ago, (1991), had the current powders which offer improved performance, been available then, I may not have bothered, even though my improved cartridge exceeds by a good margin the newer 375 H&H loads, these new powders offer excellent performance.

 

[Hank2211]

I think the derision for the "money-made hunters" is guys who get into hunting later in life when they've got plenty of money, but don't take a care from people with IRL hunting experience. Weatherby is expensive, so they assume it's the best.

The trouble comes from the money made, want-to-be hunters that have to have the pretty and fancy(expensive) rifle(and usually the scope) to try and impress everyone else. They do not shoot well(even with a lesser cartridge), do not understand hunting, EXPECT the record book animal and such. This can put the PH life's in risk at worse or just cause a lot of tracking troubles, wounded animals and such. Not to mention they complain about this or that concerning the operation or staff or PH----which is unjustified.

Think about it. Weatherby is a high dollar product compared to many other brands--even considering a non-Weatherby cartridge in a Weatherby rifle.
Add to that is the fact that some Weatherby owners I have know are(Status, try to impress) type of people. Their hunting/shooting skills often are minimal.
Put another way --as my PH said---"There are born hunters and then there are money made hunters" The born hunters know their firearm/bow and (have practiced)know how to use it. They also know how to hunt and usually the tape measure is not the most important thing. They are enjoyable to be with and when things go wrong accept it as part of hunting.
I have personally run into hunters who show up with brand new camo, a new rifle and scope(usually expensive), looking for a record book or at least super bragging animal(usually want it tied to a tree close to camp and the truck) and then complain about everything but their poor shooting ability if (Actually when) they miss. After all they had the rifle bore-sighted at the gun shop

I have ignored this thread for a long time - the pro and anti Weatherby views can get tiresome after a while. But I decided to read it this morning, and found these posts.

Let me be clear before I start the rant. I have never owned a Weatherby, and have no desire to own one. I tend towards the slower and more penetration rather than velocity side (although I own and love a .300 Win Mag). I have a .375 H&H, a .404 Jeffery, and a .416 Rigby. All traditional. So I have no brief for Weatherby.

But really? Seriously? Weatherby owners are 'money-made hunters'? And "Weatherby is expensive so they assume it's the best"?! Oh, and they're a risk to the PH and those around them! Come on! Is this Marxism 101? And anyone who can afford expensive rifles is a doos?

And it gets better! Guys who get into hunting later in life when they've got plenty of money . . .are bad!

Who has the problem here?

Let's get a few things straight.

First, how much money you have or don't have is completely irrelevant to the kind of hunter you are. A jerk is a jerk regardless of wealth. I've seen bad shots with a Savage as much as with a fancy double.

Second, many of us - and I include myself here - were so busy with work and raising families in our younger days that we didn't have the time or the ability to spend money on Africa or frankly any type of hunting, regardless of desire. As the kids got older, and the finances grew more secure and all of my other obligations were taken care of, I returned to hunting and started going to Africa. And in my hunting trips, I've met all sorts of people, from all sorts of economic backgrounds, and money has never had the slightest correlation to personality, much less ability.

Personally, I welcome any and all hunters, no matter how much money they have, and no matter their age when they take it up. The more the better. And if they can afford expensive rifles (from my perspective, Weatherby isn't expensive!), so much the better. Let's keep all the firearms manufacturers in business, and all fine gun craftsmen gainfully employed.

So if you're going to judge hunters by the type of rifle they carry, or the type of scopes they have, or the type of binos they use, well, you're the one with the problem. Because, to paraphrase Clark Gable, frankly, I don't give a damn! I'm going to continue having as much fun as I can, shooting some really great rifles!

 

[cagkt3]

I have ignored this thread for a long time - the pro and anti Weatherby views can get tiresome after a while. But I decided to read it this morning, and found these posts.

Let me be clear before I start the rant. I have never owned a Weatherby, and have no desire to own one. I tend towards the slower and more penetration rather than velocity side (although I own and love a .300 Win Mag). I have a .375 H&H, a .404 Jeffery, and a .416 Rigby. All traditional. So I have no brief for Weatherby.

But really? Seriously? Weatherby owners are 'money-made hunters'? And "Weatherby is expensive so they assume it's the best"?! Oh, and they're a risk to the PH and those around them! Come on! Is this Marxism 101? And anyone who can afford expensive rifles is a doos?

And it gets better! Guys who get into hunting later in life when they've got plenty of money . . .are bad!

Who has the problem here?

Let's get a few things straight.

First, how much money you have or don't have is completely irrelevant to the kind of hunter you are. A jerk is a jerk regardless of wealth. I've seen bad shots with a Savage as much as with a fancy double.

Second, many of us - and I include myself here - were so busy with work and raising families in our younger days that we didn't have the time or the ability to spend money on Africa or frankly any type of hunting, regardless of desire. As the kids got older, and the finances grew more secure and all of my other obligations were taken care of, I returned to hunting and started going to Africa. And in my hunting trips, I've met all sorts of people, from all sorts of economic backgrounds, and money has never had the slightest correlation to personality, much less ability.

Personally, I welcome any and all hunters, no matter how much money they have, and no matter their age when they take it up. The more the better. And if they can afford expensive rifles (from my perspective, Weatherby isn't expensive!), so much the better. Let's keep all the firearms manufacturers in business, and all fine gun craftsmen gainfully employed.

So if you're going to judge hunters by the type of rifle they carry, or the type of scopes they have, or the type of binos they use, well, you're the one with the problem. Because, to paraphrase Clark Gable, frankly, I don't give a damn! I'm going to continue having as much fun as I can, shooting some really great rifles!

This. And I don't own Weatherby's either, but I do own a couple Savage's!!

 

[Hank2211]

This. And I don't own Weatherby's either, but I do own a couple Savage's!!

I wasn't trying to denigrate Savage's - just making a point that the cost of the rifle says nothing about who you are as a hunter!

 

[sierraone]

I have ignored this thread for a long time - the pro and anti Weatherby views can get tiresome after a while. But I decided to read it this morning, and found these posts.

Let me be clear before I start the rant. I have never owned a Weatherby, and have no desire to own one. I tend towards the slower and more penetration rather than velocity side (although I own and love a .300 Win Mag). I have a .375 H&H, a .404 Jeffery, and a .416 Rigby. All traditional. So I have no brief for Weatherby.

But really? Seriously? Weatherby owners are 'money-made hunters'? And "Weatherby is expensive so they assume it's the best"?! Oh, and they're a risk to the PH and those around them! Come on! Is this Marxism 101? And anyone who can afford expensive rifles is a doos?

And it gets better! Guys who get into hunting later in life when they've got plenty of money . . .are bad!

Who has the problem here?

Let's get a few things straight.

First, how much money you have or don't have is completely irrelevant to the kind of hunter you are. A jerk is a jerk regardless of wealth. I've seen bad shots with a Savage as much as with a fancy double.

Second, many of us - and I include myself here - were so busy with work and raising families in our younger days that we didn't have the time or the ability to spend money on Africa or frankly any type of hunting, regardless of desire. As the kids got older, and the finances grew more secure and all of my other obligations were taken care of, I returned to hunting and started going to Africa. And in my hunting trips, I've met all sorts of people, from all sorts of economic backgrounds, and money has never had the slightest correlation to personality, much less ability.

Personally, I welcome any and all hunters, no matter how much money they have, and no matter their age when they take it up. The more the better. And if they can afford expensive rifles (from my perspective, Weatherby isn't expensive!), so much the better. Let's keep all the firearms manufacturers in business, and all fine gun craftsmen gainfully employed.

So if you're going to judge hunters by the type of rifle they carry, or the type of scopes they have, or the type of binos they use, well, you're the one with the problem. Because, to paraphrase Clark Gable, frankly, I don't give a damn! I'm going to continue having as much fun as I can, shooting some really great rifles!

Someone needs to go rifle shopping, I fully agree with you that Weatherby is not an expensive rifle. Only relative to maybe Winchester, Ruger and some others. Compare it to a Rigby or Westley bolt gun, it is pretty cheap!

 

[Hogpatrol]

Speaking of rifles more expensive than the Rugers, Remingtons and Savages, one never hears too much on these pages about Coopers or Kimbers. They aren't exactly blue collar rifles.

 

[cagkt3]

I wasn't trying to denigrate Savage's - just making a point that the cost of the rifle says nothing about who you are as a hunter!

Haha no worries Hank! I'm on the same page, I just always have to throw a smartass comment or two in

 

[sgt_zim]

I have ignored this thread for a long time - the pro and anti Weatherby views can get tiresome after a while. But I decided to read it this morning, and found these posts.

Let me be clear before I start the rant. I have never owned a Weatherby, and have no desire to own one. I tend towards the slower and more penetration rather than velocity side (although I own and love a .300 Win Mag). I have a .375 H&H, a .404 Jeffery, and a .416 Rigby. All traditional. So I have no brief for Weatherby.

But really? Seriously? Weatherby owners are 'money-made hunters'? And "Weatherby is expensive so they assume it's the best"?! Oh, and they're a risk to the PH and those around them! Come on! Is this Marxism 101? And anyone who can afford expensive rifles is a doos?

And it gets better! Guys who get into hunting later in life when they've got plenty of money . . .are bad!

Who has the problem here?

Let's get a few things straight.

First, how much money you have or don't have is completely irrelevant to the kind of hunter you are. A jerk is a jerk regardless of wealth. I've seen bad shots with a Savage as much as with a fancy double.

Second, many of us - and I include myself here - were so busy with work and raising families in our younger days that we didn't have the time or the ability to spend money on Africa or frankly any type of hunting, regardless of desire. As the kids got older, and the finances grew more secure and all of my other obligations were taken care of, I returned to hunting and started going to Africa. And in my hunting trips, I've met all sorts of people, from all sorts of economic backgrounds, and money has never had the slightest correlation to personality, much less ability.

Personally, I welcome any and all hunters, no matter how much money they have, and no matter their age when they take it up. The more the better. And if they can afford expensive rifles (from my perspective, Weatherby isn't expensive!), so much the better. Let's keep all the firearms manufacturers in business, and all fine gun craftsmen gainfully employed.

So if you're going to judge hunters by the type of rifle they carry, or the type of scopes they have, or the type of binos they use, well, you're the one with the problem. Because, to paraphrase Clark Gable, frankly, I don't give a damn! I'm going to continue having as much fun as I can, shooting some really great rifles!

Hank, it isn't that some of the 'Weatherby' guys get into hunting later in life, it's that they get into it later in life and because of hubris or fear of looking stupid or whatever that they don't ask questions, buy a relatively expensive gun like a Weatherby, don't practice, don't take the tradecraft seriously, don't consider that as hunters, they have an obligation to their quarry to put them down as expeditiously and painlessly as they can.

I have nothing against novice hunters, either, as long as they ask questions and are willing to learn from someone who's already BTDT. For someone with little or no shooting experience, a Weatherby magnum, I think you would agree, is a poor choice for a variety of reasons. I take new guys in their 30s and 40s out whenever I can, but we go to the range first, several times. If they don't own any rifles but are interested, they shoot mine, starting with smaller bores like 6.5x55 or even 223. If they handle that ok, we start moving up to see what they're comfortable with.

I worked a gun counter when I was in college, and I saw more than a few guys with money and no experience come in and buy rifles like that. One of them bought a .340 Wby Mag to take to Vermejo Park for an expensive elk hunt (they were around 10K even back in the late 80s). The first time he fired the rifle was in NM at the range. It scared the poop out of him, then he missed every elk he shot at because he was flinching, and he had some 100 yard shots.

I've got nothing against guys buying expensive rifles because they've got money, and I'd love to own a Blaser or Sauer or Sako myself (and a Sako or Sauer is not far off). Not all Weatherby owners are like that, but the guys with money and don't ask question or practice or anything seem to gravitate towards Weatherbys. It seems that more than a few PHs have noticed it, too.

 

[Ryan]

 

[LivingTheDream]

One of the most meticulous hunters I know loves Weatherby rifles and calibers. I think anytime you classify a group of hunters based on what they shoot, wear, or use we are going down a bad path.

My wife says I'm a snob because I only wear sitka or kuiu...I also refuse to pay over 20 dollars for jeans...it's about priorities.

 

[Russ Tippett]

I have had 3 Weatherby rifles and still have 2, both re-barreled and restocked Mk 5’s.
I enjoy firearms and picked these weapons up during a sale in Southgate way back, not because they were Weatherby so much as because they were a good deal and they were not black and automatic (USMC day job).
The action is the strongest in the business and yes it is a push feed. A new barrel on a .257 made it into a 358 STA with a Rimrock stock (4 elk) . The second a 378 re-barreled to .378 again with a Rimrock (2 Elk) which I am taking to Zim next spring. I have also built a 300 ( Eland, Hartebeest, Black Wildebeest, Nyala, Reedbuck, Blesbuck) and 257 up on Borden actions both shoot under 3/8 inch while the 378 is holding 5/8 with 260 partitions. The 358 is also around a half.
My PH told me I never needed to own another rifle or shoot another bullet after seeing all one shot kills with the 300 Wby with 200 gr Northforks ranging from 120 to 240 yards.
In short the rounds are more accurate than me, the actions are so strong that I don’t think they’ve managed to blow one up in testing and yes the stocks are ugly.
I also have more than a handful of Mausers that I’ve put together over the years. Some people don’t like those either. I’ll just have to live with the shame.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Russ,

After reading your story, emotions overcame me and I realized just how limitless my compassion ran for a fellow hunter. Please no longer feel ashamed, I will take really good care of your Mausers, I promise. Like a true soldier I will carry the burden of shame in your place so you may feel relieved and free.

Forgot to add that over the years I've owned several Weatherbys, all great shooters, all rock solid firearms. For some reason I can't find the proper emoji to express my feelings to the naysayers and find myself limited to words only. Still very satisfying to share my feelings regarding these fine rifles.

 

[Russ Tippett]

Paul,
It is good to know that compassionate folks like you lurk on this site. Perhaps a few of us should form a Mauser support group.
Russ

 

[Paul Homsy]

Excellent idea Russ and thank you for appreciating my most sincere offer