Why all the 6.5 Creedmoor Hate?

[Wyatt Smith]

Is it the cartridge itself, or people’s wanting to get into long range shooting and the 6.5cm makes the most sense? It probably goes hand in hand and I’m just splitting hairs with you.
As you said a sniper rifle just 15 years ago probably was a 308 and wore a fixed 10x with mil dots. I often wonder what the old school great shots, like Carlos Hathcock would do with today’s equipment? Would he be that much better or would technology have closed the gap between him and an average man.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Is it the cartridge itself, or people’s wanting to get into long range shooting and the 6.5cm makes the most sense? It probably goes hand in hand and I’m just splitting hairs with you.
As you said a sniper rifle just 15 years ago probably was a 308 and wore a fixed 10x with mil dots. I often wonder what the old school great shots, like Carlos Hathcock would do with today’s equipment?

Would he be that much better or would technology have closed the gap between him and an average man.

No it wouldn’t have closed the gap. The Hathcocks will always be ahead of average or even good.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I think we need to stop hating on a round that is bringing so many new shooters into the sport. Also, I can’t think of another round with so many high quality options in ammunition. Who cares if it’s ballistics are eerily similar to a 6.5 Swede? That’s actually a positive vote as the Swede is a proven killer.

It is bringing in new shooters, I have seen it to many times.

The difference is we have better barrels, better ammo, better scopes, and better computer programs (then back in the time frames you are speaking on). People are making quality hits at distance with little effort. Way easier and more consistent than just 10 years ago all factory loads. It doesn't take long for word to get around and more people jump on the train.

So do you think that people that wouldn't otherwise start shooting/hunting do it because they can now buy a 6.5 Creedmore?

 

[Inline6]

Is it the cartridge itself, or people’s wanting to get into long range shooting and the 6.5cm makes the most sense? It probably goes hand in hand and I’m just splitting hairs with you.
As you said a sniper rifle just 15 years ago probably was a 308 and wore a fixed 10x with mil dots. I often wonder what the old school great shots, like Carlos Hathcock would do with today’s equipment? Would he be that much better or would technology have closed the gap between him and an average man.

You are looking at it correctly.

The scope would have e been mil dot with moa adjustments. Things have changed, for the better.

Carlos was a special individual with balls of steel, not many people are built like that.

 

[Inline6]

So do you think that people that wouldn't otherwise start shooting/hunting do it because they can now buy a 6.5 Creedmore?

I'm not sure how old you are, I'm mid 40s. When I was growing up 300 yards was a big deal. Now a new shooter can spend 3k or less all in with factory ammo and bang steel at 500 yards with limited effort (2 moa targets).

6.5CM cuts the wind, has good ammo, and cheaper rifles that perform. Most people that like guns like hitting targets at distance. So when you can take a new shooter and put them on steel at 500 yards they get hooked. It is a snow ball so to speak. That new guy shows another new guy rinse and repeat.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I'm not sure how old you are, I'm mid 40s. When I was growing up 300 yards was a big deal. Now a new shooter can spend 3k or less all in with factory ammo and bang steel at 500 yards with limited effort (2 moa targets).

6.5CM cuts the wind, has good ammo, and cheaper rifles that perform. Most people that like guns like hitting targets at distance. So when you can take a new shooter and put them on steel at 500 yards they get hooked. It is a snow ball so to speak. That new guy shows another new guy rinse and repeat.

And then they cripple deer at 600 yards, and the hate starts over.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So we got to Dallas this morning, flying Southwest Airlines and arrived early. I guess this put me into a subconscious attitude of taking on higher risk.

Since the Beretta Gun Gallery is just a short drive from the airport and I’d never been there, we decided to check it out. Some very nice shotguns and rifles were drooled over. Funny enough in this store full of such fine guns they also had Tikkas.

And there on the counter was a model similar but with different features than the T3s I’ve had in the past. I could not help but pick it up and check it out……same smooth Tikka action……for a fiberglass stock it was nice, not the usual black……a bigger knob on the bolt handle. And then the horror and fear of what could happen hit me like a freight train when I realized the rifle was a 6.5 Creedmoor!!!!!

I put the rifle down as fast as I dared. All I could do was hope the evilness did not rub off and take hold. So I’m happy to report that I still:

1) Have no desire for Starbucks coffee
2) Have my flat top haircut
3) Find my wife attractive

 

[Forrest Halley]

I often wonder what the old school great shots, like Carlos Hathcock would do with today’s equipment? Would he be that much better or would technology have closed the gap between him and an average man.

Burke and Hathcock would be even better than Johnson and St. John because they have the hunter's instinct much more ingrained and would've found ways to push it even harder with the improved gear.

No it wouldn’t have closed the gap. The Hathcocks will always be ahead of average or even good.

Agreed. Some folks are just gifted and no 6.5 is going grant you patience and endurance of hardship like that of a lifelong hunter and killer.

And then they cripple deer at 600 yards, and the hate starts over.

But the paper had such clean holes in it... And the steel went ding...

 

[Inline6]

And then they cripple deer at 600 yards, and the hate starts over.

That has nothing to do with the cartridge and everything to do with personal responsibility. That is like blaming alcohol on drunk driving.

I'm just the long range hunting shows have nothing to do with any of it either...

 

[Flewis]

Burke and Hathcock would be even better than Johnson and St. John because they have the hunter's instinct much more ingrained and would've found ways to push it even harder with the improved gear.

Agreed. Some folks are just gifted and no 6.5 is going grant you patience and endurance of hardship like that of a lifelong hunter and killer.

But the paper had such clean holes in it... And the steel went ding...

I met Hathcock many years ago at a gun show in new bern nc. Also a guy I use told me about a shot he saw a marine make with a 50bmg in viet nam, he didn’t, know any names just that it was a sgt. he told me this in the 1970s. Years later I read it in Hathcock book and there was.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

And then they cripple deer at 600 yards, and the hate starts over.

Wouldn’t that be the shooters fault & not the cartridges?

We all hate it when the media blames the gun not the criminal!
This seems similar?

 

[Doug Hamilton]

That has nothing to do with the cartridge and everything to do with personal responsibility. That is like blaming alcohol on drunk driving.

I'm just the long range hunting shows have nothing to do with any of it either...

But it does have a lot to do with inexperience, hype, and hunting shows that push the concept of "the thousand yard club" etc. Inexperienced shooters don't know what they don't know. No one should be shooting at live animals at a distance where the game has the time to take a step or two forward in the time it takes the bullet to reach the target from when the trigger breaks. Doesn't matter what the cartridge is, but the 6.5 craze among new shooters has played into some of the negative feelings.

 

[Inline6]

But it does have a lot to do with inexperience, hype, and hunting shows that push the concept of "the thousand yard club" etc. Inexperienced shooters don't know what they don't know. No one should be shooting at live animals at a distance where the game has the time to take a step or two forward in the time it takes the bullet to reach the target from when the trigger breaks. Doesn't matter what the cartridge is, but the 6.5 craze among new shooters has played into some of the negative feelings.

So in your mind what is the maximum distance someone should shoot?

 

[Hogpatrol]

I don't know any steel ringers who hunt and anyone with a 6.5 CM who thinks it's a 1000 yard gun. In my travels, they're target only shooters. All of the hunters in my circle of friends and of the guys at the gun clubs are ethical hunters. I don't think lumping all 6.5 CM owners in to the category of unethical know nothings hunters is helpful to the sport. YMMV.

 

[CBH Australia]

I don't know any steel ringers who hunt and anyone with a 6.5 CM who thinks it's a 1000 yard gun. In my travels, they're target only shooters. All of the hunters in my circle of friends and of the guys at the gun clubs are ethical hunters. I don't think lumping all 6.5 CM owners in to the category of unethical know nothings hunters is helpful to the sport. YMMV.

I get where you are coming from and I know the Creedmoor has its place and I'm not tarring all Man Bun gun shooters with the same brush

I still think a lot of us dislike the hype , and the nonsense comments that come from the shooters who think it outperforms everything else because on paper it shows good ballistics for long range target shooting.

I've quoted this before but I was tagged in a thread where a shooter said something along the lines of the Creedmoor can outdo the geriatric .30's .

I don't recall the member or even the forum but it was a dumb statement.

He's to naive to realise he lives in a free country because the .303, .30-06,.308 and even the .223 were used to protect our freedom.

 

[Inline6]

I get where you are coming from and I know the Creedmoor has its place and I'm not tarring all Man Bun gun shooters with the same brush

I still think a lot of us dislike the hype , and the nonsense comments that come from the shooters who think it outperforms everything else because on paper it shows good ballistics for long range target shooting.

I've quoted this before but I was tagged in a thread where a shooter said something along the lines of the Creedmoor can outdo the geriatric .30's .

I don't recall the member or even the forum but it was a dumb statement.

He's to naive to realise he lives in a free country because the .303, .30-06,.308 and even the .223 were used to protect our freedom.

Depending on the 30 I would say that person was correct.

308 vs 6.5 both are loads I have used, can you push either harder yes just not a crazy amount more IMHO.

750 yards

6.5CM 130 vld 2885fps drop 115" 10MPH wind FV 38.6" energy 894.8ft#

308 175 SMK 2785 fps drop 159.9" 10MPH wind FV 49.6" energy 912.6ft#

We in the US are also free because of muskets too. A lot of frontier men and women lost their lives to bows and arrows also.

The point is technology is always pressing forward, we can choose to resist. Or we can see the merits for what they are. Does it mean you can no longer shoot long range? I would say no, I still make hits at 1200+ yards with a 308. One thing it does do, increase your hit percentage. Any advantages you can get for the bullet bucking the wind are going to help.

Just a side note, imagine if Americans that were fighting for their freedom armmed with muskets were facing the British that had bolt guns much less M16s. We all know how that out come would have turned out. So we all need to ask ourselves, when do we not want to use the technology of today? Some people only use bows and I see people give them grief if they want to hunt DG that way. Some want to use black powder, again if that is what floats their boat who am I to judge them. In today society of anti gun everything, we should choose our words carefully. We need as many new shooters as possible. If someone says something silly like 6.5CM will out perform a 300wm, we all have a choice. We can walk away in distain or we can educate the person making the claim.

I can't tell anyone how to handle themselves, I'll only speak for myself. Before I would hear some BS and I would not both with addressing it. People handle guns poorly and I would just leave. Now I take the time to attempt to educate the best I can. If I don't who will? That is the question I had to ask myself, I have helped many people at the range with little problems. Dead triggers, loose scope mounts, loose actions, bases, bad ammo, etc. One of my closest friends today we met because his trigger went down in a match and I helped him get it fixed never met him before that day. So you just never know. Of course our attitude towards these people will dictate how the message is received.

It is up to us, if we don't help other how are things going to look in 20 years. I never once thought I would hunt Africa, my son talked me into it. Now when people talk negatively towards hunting Africa, I'm able to atleast give them some better information and possibly change their minds. Some of the knowledge was gained by sharing their knowledge on this site. Point being info is powerful, perspective is powerful, teaching is powerful.

I know this is kind of in left field, my brain does that from time to time.

 

[Cleveland48]

Yup! We spend all our free time in Kansas training those mule deer

Seriously, I'm normally a fan of really nice Walnut married to high quality blued steel. Non of which that Creedmoor has. It is a Ruger Predator with the 2 stage trigger (that takes some getting used to but I have come to like that trigger). It is marred up stainless steel in a laminated stock. It wears a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18x44 with a balistic turret and W4 reticle. It shoots between 1/4" and 1/2" depending on ammo. It serves as my truck gun, especially when I'm in Kansas. It is a perfectly capable deer cartridge, about as good as it gets for pronghorn, not terrible overkill on coyotes. Superbly accurate with great glass that seems to stay on zero in spite of bouncing around in my truck, often buried under luggage.

Add in that I currently have a shoulder issue going on, and Gina has permanently damaged shoulders. And this rifle has basically zero noticable recoil.

So all those reasons, plus my favorite 300 win mag was in the back of the safe when I was packing up to leave home and head to Kansas. And I'm going there to work and squeeze in some hunting so the gear I take with tends to get neglected and bounced around.

This was Gina's first deer. However she is an experienced shooter and hunter and I'd wager she is usually the best shot in whatever group she is hanging out with And she's been wacking varmints at home with that Creedmoor so is familiar with it.

So yea, other cartridges are more capable, but with a heavier rifle or more recoil. This happens to be my beater gun at the moment. And it has taken Springbuck at 524 yards, pronghorn at 442 yards, a trotting coyote at 350 yards, this mule deer at 338 yards, a couple whitetail and numerous other coyotes and misc vermin, some oddball sheep in Texas, and a few other critters in Africa. All with factory ammo.

I'm sure the same or similar and much better can be said of other cartridges. Buy this has dine the job also. And yes the yahoos get carried away thinking it is the hammer of Thor. It is not. That would be the 505 Gibbs loaded up to 2350 fps with 525 grain TSX's Which i love also for it's usefulness and accuracy.

Pretty much sums up the little 6.5 CM. I’ve owned 4 rifles in this caliber. To date this is the only caliber that I’ve had 4 different rifles in and everyone averaged around 1/2 moa with factory loads, yes factory loads. My current target rifle in this caliber shoots well below 1/4” moa with handloads, which are 140 grain leaving the 26” barrel at 2804 fps. Having taken deer with 6.5CM, 260 rem, 6.5x55 and 7mm08 handloaded to their best potential I have not seen one ounce of difference in on game performance on whitetail. None of those calibers I’ve mentioned have been remotely close accuracy wise with factory ammo compared to the 6.5CM. Handloads yes they are all similar, but for the whitetail deer hunter who doesn’t reload the CM is an awesome choice.

 

[rdog]

I have to comment on this thread;

I know the two persons involved in the development of the 6.5 Creedmoor. Of course, all of this is published information available to anyone via a Google search. The person who dreamed of the 6.5 CM is a two-time national rifle champion. In fact, I shot with him on the Marine Corps Rifle Team long ago... He was a better marksman than I. Anyway, he knew and shared a room with the Hornady’s chief ballistician at the NRA/CMP National Rifle matches at Camp Perry Ohio. After a hard day chasing 10-X's the champion shooter commented to the ballistician that he wished there was a cartridge designed for the 0 to 600 yard "across the course" matches that would out preform the 5.56 at longer ranges, but not generate so much recoil that tires out a shooter after a 60, 80, or 100 round match. The days of shooting 7.62 Nato/.308 M-14’s and M1A’s across the course are long over.

The Hornady ballistician took that idea and created a cartridge for target shooting that does in fact have great hunting application. The cartridge should have been named after the shooter but instead he asked it be named Creedmoor. Of course, the shooter was at the time managing Creedmoor Sports which specialized in supplying equipment to match competitors. Maybe that had something to do with naming the cartridge?

In summary;
The 6.5 Creedmoor was developed as a target cartridge with hunting capabilities.
Hornady which developed the 6.5 CM, is in the business of manufacturing and selling components and ammunition. Let’s not forget that Hornady also has a large part in the re-birth of many nearly extinct cartridges for double rifles, and if I am not mistake, the .416 Rigby. They could not have done that without many a profit on their products. To make a profit on what is new, Hornady needs to market them as better than sliced bread!

My opinion;
The majority of us on this forum are pretty gun savvy and have more than a few decades of life and shooting experience. If you are like me, when I pick up Shooting Times, Guns and Ammo, or The American Rifleman, I read about the new developments with a grain of salt. Let's face it, my 30-06 Remington 700 Classic which I bought in 1982 will still kill any whitetail, mule deer, or elk on this planet. For long range western hunting, there may be better choices. Your 30-06, 270, or 300 magnum is probably much the same. We do NOT need another rifle within the power and distance range than the one(s) we already own. We do however "desire" what is old and classic, or newer and better. If one wants a newer and better 6.5 something or other, go for it!

That is an excellent summery of the Cartridge in my opinion.

 

[rdog]

Is it the cartridge itself, or people’s wanting to get into long range shooting and the 6.5cm makes the most sense? It probably goes hand in hand and I’m just splitting hairs with you.
As you said a sniper rifle just 15 years ago probably was a 308 and wore a fixed 10x with mil dots. I often wonder what the old school great shots, like Carlos Hathcock would do with today’s equipment? Would he be that much better or would technology have closed the gap between him and an average man.

I think people like Hathcock would be better because they had the skill & ability to get the job done no matter what.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

So in your mind what is the maximum distance someone should shoot?

For me, it's about 400 yards with a 7 RM, if the game animal is dead still and not going anywhere. I can punch holes in paper further than that, but I won't shoot at live animal further out. Most new shooters shouldn't even do that.
One time I shot a mule deer buck at about 100 yards with a muzzle loader. He was standing still, but started forward just as the trigger broke. With the long lock time and slow bullet speed, it caught him through the right ham, and out through the guts. It was a long tracking job but I did find and finish him. I have been very conscious of lock times and game movement since then.