What happened to British gun industry?

[bruce moulds]

there is some good original footage of jutland on the internet.
of some interest are the british steam powered torpedo boats.
It must have been a rough ride for their crews keeping up to the fleet.
and of course the big ships firing their big guns is always spectacular.
bruce.

 

[Red Leg]

Indirectly yes. They almost brought the British to their knees with submarine warfare in 1917. I think that was the lesson that was learned. Fortunately, in 1939 Hitler badly miscalculated with regard to Poland, plunging Germany into war with Great Britain four years earlier than the Kriegsmarine was planning. By ‘44 the German Navy would have had five Bizmarck class battleships, at least one aircraft carrier and a huge fleet of blue water submarines. Instead, they were forced to conduct the Battle of the Atlantic on a shoestring missing the opportunity in 41/42 to win the commerce war. Even then, they came very close.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

They almost brought the British to their knees with submarine warfare in 1917. I think that was the lesson that was learned. Fortunately, in 1939 Hitler badly miscalculated with regard to Poland, plunging Germany into war with Great Britain four years earlier than the Kriegsmarine was planning. By ‘44 the German Navy would have had five Bizmarck class battleships, at least one aircraft carrier and a huge fleet of blue water submarines. Instead, they were forced to conduct the Battle of the Atlantic on a shoestring missing the opportunity in 41/42 to win the commerce war. Even then, they came very close.

I was always of the impression Hitler's greatest mistake was the invasion of russia ( followed closely by not finishing the expladitionary force in Dunkirk) but you've just made a very good argument for an earlier blunder. As it stood German battleships played not great strategic part in my opinion with the exception of existing.

 

[bruce moulds]

thank god hitler made the mistake of not pursuing the atomic bomb and jet aircraft.
bruce.

 

[Fastrig]

I was always of the impression Hitler's greatest mistake was the invasion of russia ( followed closely by not finishing the expladitionary force in Dunkirk) but you've just made a very good argument for an earlier blunder. As it stood German battleships played not great strategic part in my opinion with the exception of existing.

Hitler’s biggest mistake was lack of patience, he was in too big a hurry when he didn’t really need to be. Had he listened to the people giving him good advice, i.e. waiting for his navy to be completed and not opening up on two fronts (Russia debacle), Germany more than likely would have taken and held Europe and Great Britain. The U.S. populace was in no mood to get involved in another “European war”, Stalin didn’t want a war and he and Hitler had a non-aggression pact in place that the Soviets were perfectly fine with, Italy was an ally, and no one else on the planet had the strength, will or fortitude to stop Germany’s European expansion. Had Hitler focussed on consolidating his hold on Europe, taking Great Britain, and strengthening the axis alliance he would have been damn near impossible to bring down. We are pretty lucky that Hitler’s ego and crazy stood in the way of good judgement and advice being put into play.

 

[Red Leg]

thank god hitler made the mistake of not pursuing the atomic bomb and jet aircraft.
bruce.

They had a heavy water plant in Norway and the ME 262 was the first successful jet interceptor. I would say thank God an unanticipated consequence of Hitler's anti-semitic rhetoric was that a man named Albert Einstein (and other Jewish German theoreticians and engineers) abandoned Europe for the United States after 1933. In 1940 Einstein personally warned Roosevelt about the possibility of an atomic bomb and the Manhattan Project was the result.

 

[Pondoro]

The heavy water plant at Rjukan Norway was blown up in a commando raid in winter 1943...it is within my county..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage

 

[Foxi]

thank god hitler made the mistake of not pursuing the atomic bomb and jet aircraft.
bruce.

yes, a great luck for mankind, Hitler would have devastated everything with it towards the end, including Germany and wiped out his own people.
"what is alive now has no value", he said during the last years of the war.
But, we are also aware of the fact, that if the Americans had had the atomic bomb earlier, we would have felt it too.

@Pondoro -Im sure you know the place where I took these pictures.

these things had a reach of 30 KM-but I would not ask for the precision
Remains of Hitler's megalomaniacal --Atlantic Wall in Norway

the bullet weight is a little bit more than a .577 NE

I'd let all these f.... wars be decided by soccer games

 

[Pondoro]

What I think is astonishing is the giant technological leap forward throughout WW2...on both sides..

 

[Foxi]

What I think is astonishing is the giant technological leap forward throughout WW2...on both sides..

"war is the father of all things"
Heraklit
(unfortunately)

 

[mark-hunter]

Whatever was meaningful invented in gun design, it was invented latest by the end of ww2.

 

[Foxi]

Whatever was meaningful invented in gun design, it was invented latest by the end of ww2.

not sure about hat-
Mauser (18) -98
beautiful English double rifels .
All our beloved African calibers are over 100 years old .

 

[mark-hunter]

Foxi, what I wanted to say, what was really invented after 1945?

mauser 98 - year 1898, (much before end of ww2, right? In fact even before ww1)
Doube rifles, box locks, side locks, etc... as you said
colt 1911.. before end of ww2, actually before ww1, etc
browning HP pistol - 1935?
machine gun design perfected by 1942, right before ww2. (mg42)
Automatic weopens, all kinds, all systems perfected till end of ww2.

then for gun barrel production, we have
cut rifling, since begging of fire arm manufacture.. but
button rifling, pattented by Lothar walther in twenties... between wars
barrel hammer forging, 1939- perfected till 42, probably, again before end of ww2...
double stack magazine pistol, HP35 - before start ww2
double action pistol, walther p38 - between wars

So, whatever was invented, it was invented by the end of ww2. or beter put it before end of ww2

After ww2, the design development is slowed down, all major things are already well known,

After ww2, you have:
rise of fast magnums, but it is not really new invention - before that we had 8x68, or 280 Ross, right?
We have invention of premium bullets, right, like nosler partiton? But H-mantel invented earlier, by... well, by Germans

There is slight improvement in glass and optics technology, but optics are around on guns since 19 century
What else...?
Oh, yes, modularization of guns, but take downs have been also earlier designed,
straight pull action - well, also, earlier design, some have even seen ww1 action (Ross, Smidt Rubin, etc)

The thing which is really invented in post ww2 era is piccatiny rail.
thats about it, about great designs.

As mentioned, all great gun designs are invented, before the end of ww2....in various times in history, and most of it between 1850 and 1945.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

The Germans also had another jet aircraft of note: the Arado Ar 234. It was being used primarily in a photo reconnaissance role but it was capable of carrying a bomb load. When used as a bomber it proved to be quite difficult to intercept.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arado_Ar_234

It would be a contender for delivering German tactical atomic bombs with more precision than the V-2, which no other nation had anything quite like. The Ar 234 for delivery on the concentrated areas of manufacturing along the Russian front and especially Stalingrad because well, you know, and the V-2 the delivery system of choice for the British Isles.

On the British gun industry: Interarms although US owned had a facility in Manchester England. I don't know all the details but it's been said that's where the upper range Zastava LK M70 rifles sold by.Interarms, with higher grade stocks in particular, were assembled using Zastava barreled actions. I don't know enough details to know if that was the only activity at the Interarms facility in the UK, and that facility was added on, the main Interarms facility was in Virginia. Interarms folded around 20 years ago, I wonder if the Manchester facility was still being used when Interarms went belly up? Despitebeing US owned and the barreled actions weren'tmanufactured in the UK I like to think it provided a small bit to the UK gun industrythrough employment of labor there.

Those Zastava traditionally gloss blued Mauser barreled actions at minimum have kept a Mauser based Eurogun available at a working man hunter's wage on four continents: North America, Europe, Africa, and Australia since its genesis in 1970. There always was and always will be rifles in a higher price bracket with finer fit & finish and stocks, and offerings at lower cost with less features such as black epoxy paint style metal finish, polymer parts in some places where metal had been more traditional, and not one scrap of wood anywhere (although at least some of those features can be found on rifles in equal and higher price brackets as well).

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Marko,

Caseless ammunition is still being explored. The polymer science before 1946 was really in its infancy. Rail guns were never a thing before 1946 either but if the Germans had harnessed nuclear fission for electric power as well as weapons, who knows how quickly they may have made long strides down that path - both on artillery scale as well as more portable versions? I know that's a stretch but within the envelope of raw materials availability in WWII Germany, and vulnerability of hydroelectric power generation, who knows what those pressures to come up with alternatives would have born fruit in the notable leaps in science and technology that conflict produced?

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Marko,

Caseless ammunition is still being explored. The polymer science before 1946 was really in its infancy. Rail guns were never a thing before 1946 either but if the Germans had harnessed nuclear fission for electric power as well as weapons, who knows how quickly they may have made long strides down that path - both on artillery scale as well as more portable versions? I know that's a stretch but within the envelope of raw materials availability in WWII Germany, and vulnerability of hydroelectric power generation, who knows what those pressures to come up with alternatives would have born fruit in the notable leaps in science and technology that conflict produced?

Can you explain caseless ammunition For those of us that slept through science class and used sifi movies as an excuse to make out?

 

[mark-hunter]

@Skinnersblade

Further development of this idea....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet
And also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_caseless_firearms

However, till now, no practical design is yet produced, to my knowledge, thus I havent mentioned it....
O yes, the true caseless designs so far ended with cap and all black powder era, when smith and wesson patent expired for metalic cartridge in 1870ies, and everybody started producing metallic cartridge fire arms, with a small practicall revival of in line hunting rifles.
(as mentioned, all important things happened between 1850 and 1945).

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

@Skinnersblade

Further development of this idea....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet
And also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_caseless_firearms

However, till now, no practical design is yet produced, to my knowledge, thus I havent mentioned it....
O yes, the true caseless designs so far ended with cap and all black powder era, when smith and wesson patent expired for metalic cartridge in 1870ies, and everybody started producing metallic cartridge fire arms, with a small practicall revival of in line hunting rifles.
(as mentioned, all important things happened between 1850 and 1945).

So by definition the volcanic pistol would be considered caseless?

 

[Red Leg]

Whatever was meaningful invented in gun design, it was invented latest by the end of ww2.

If by explosive charge propulsion and a rifled barrel - that was all pretty much solved by WWI. Refinements were in target acquisition, fusing and loading mechanisms. The variable time fuze (VT) was probably the most important development. Instead of estimating time of flight and mechanically setting an explosive time, rounds equipped with VT fuzes used a small radar transmitter to detect proximity to the ground ensuring optimal height of burst over troops (the fuze also revolutionized anti-aircraft artillery). When one reads the German war diaries, one finds contempt for Western armor, little respect for Western infantry, and absolute fear of allied artillery and fighter bombers (Jabos).

Since WWII a lot of work is going into new propulsion systems - rail and rocket, and particularly guidance systems. Base bleed technology has extended range tremendously. The new GPS systems will survive normal artillery firing and the new fuzes that contain them offer enough guidance to correct the final few hundred feet caused by normal round to round dispersion to hit within a meter of the identified target.

The battlefield is becoming an ever more lethal place to meet a first world army - why resorting to non-conventional tactics such as the IED has become so popular.

 

[Fastrig]

If by explosive charge propulsion and a rifled barrel - that was all pretty much solved by WWI. Refinements were in target acquisition, fusing and loading mechanisms. The variable time fuze (VT) was probably the most important development. Instead of estimating time of flight and mechanically setting an explosive time, rounds equipped with VT fuzes used a small radar transmitter to detect proximity to the ground ensuring optimal height of burst over troops (the fuze also revolutionized anti-aircraft artillery). When one reads the German war diaries, one finds contempt for Western armor, little respect for Western infantry, and absolute fear of allied artillery and fighter bombers (Jabos).

Since WWII a lot of work is going into new propulsion systems - rail and rocket, and particularly guidance systems. Base bleed technology has extended range tremendously. The new GPS systems will survive normal artillery firing and the new fuzes that contain them offer enough guidance to correct the final few hundred feet caused by normal round to round dispersion to hit within a meter of the identified target.

The battlefield is becoming an ever more lethal place to meet a first world army - why resorting to non-conventional tactics such as the IED has become so popular.

Wondering how rail gun and laser tech is going to evolve in this arena. Know we have early versions functioning and is some cases deployed, but would think they will be game changers when they become more mature.