What do you think of Tiger and Jaguar being hunted in South Africa?

[npm352]

I have had hunts in high fence that were plenty sporting. I prefer free range, but it isn't always possible. How big is hunting and not just killing? I dont know. Red leg would say any fenced area. I disagree. I've hunted a fenced area in SA bigger than the elk unit I hunt in Idaho. We drove two hours in one direction and didn't hit a fence. Here's the problem with your argument. Who makes you the standard setter? I know plenty of guys that think rifle hunting is unsporting. Or hunting with a scope. Or hunting with a compound bow. Or a recurve vs. a long bow. Maybe there are people who think only a spear is ethical....or just your bare hands... I have fly fishing friends that equate fishing with a spinning reel to throwing in a stick of dynamite and waiting for all the fish to float to the top and scooping them up in a net. We all have our own standard. I thought long and hard about hunting a captive raised lioness but decided to put the money toward a hunt in the Zambezi for my own personal convictions. The problem is hunters putting down other hunters who are acting within the law. We dont need any more of that. Eventually opportunities will dwindle away until there is no more hunting because every hunter thought the next easiest hunters methods were "bullshit" and spoke out against them. There are plenty of people out there that think rifle hunters are chumps because bows are the "real way." It's a vicous cycle and in the end we all get screwed.

 

[Red Leg]

I have had hunts in high fence that were plenty sporting. I prefer free range, but it isn't always possible. How big is hunting and not just killing? I dont know. Red leg would say any fenced area. I disagree. I've hunted a fenced area in SA bigger than the elk unit I hunt in Idaho. We drove two hours in one direction and didn't hit a fence. Here's the problem with your argument. Who makes you the standard setter? I know plenty of guys that think rifle hunting is unsporting. Or hunting with a scope. Or hunting with a compound bow. Or a recurve vs. a long bow. Maybe there are people who think only a spear is ethical....or just your bare hands... I have fly fishing friends that equate fishing with a spinning reel to throwing in a stick of dynamite and waiting for all the fish to float to the top and scooping them up in a net. We all have our own standard. I thought long and hard about hunting a captive raised lioness but decided to put the money toward a hunt in the Zambezi for my own personal convictions. The problem is hunters putting down other hunters who are acting within the law. We dont need any more of that. Eventually opportunities will dwindle away until there is no more hunting because every hunter thought the next easiest hunters methods were "bullshit" and spoke out against them. There are plenty of people out there that think rifle hunters are chumps because bows are the "real way." It's a vicous cycle and in the end we all get screwed.

I'm sorry, but rather you tell our forum what "Red Leg would say" how about letting me speak for myself. I would also note, I feel no compunction to force you or anyone else to agree with me. But I do have a clear understanding about what I believe is ethical hunting; and that belief absolutely colors with whom I would care to share a campfire. And if anyone has a problem with that they are absolutely welcome not to invite me to their's.

I have no problem with fences where the fenced ground is adequate for the animal to not perceive it is confined. A lot of game ranges meet that standard. Those that advertise a particular animal or score typically do not. The big cats never ever fall into that category. They are raised by humans who they learn to at least partially trust. They are drugged and then they are released for some shooter to use as target practice. No game farm owner can afford great cats which are truly wild. Whatever this "sport" is - it isn't hunting. And I am convinced it is a practice which tarnishes all of us who love Africa.

And by the way, I don't blame the outfitters who offer this. They are simply feeding demand.

 

[npm352]

Sorry red leg. When you called a high fence enclosure "a cage (I dont care how many acres)" I assumed that you consider enclosures cages regardless of how many acres they are. My bad.

 

[Christina Nyczepir]

Trap123, totally agree with,,,,but,,,, if you hunt them in Texas, you get to bring the meat home with you. That would be the up-side of hunting plains game in Texas. Yes, I have considered it, (and it's not off the table, yet) just to have a freezer full of Blue Wildebeest meat, or some Kudu jerky "home made",,,MMMMmmmmmmm...

Somehow I can not believe it would taste the same. Most meat is affected by what the animal eats.

 

[Christina Nyczepir]

Hunters need to support hunters. Period. If its legal dont put other hunters down. If you don't like a law, work to have it changed. I am a houndsmen in Idaho and would love it if only male mountain lions were allowed to be shot. I would like the law changed to protect females because a lot of kittens get orphaned this way and we need more lions not less. But, I will never put someone down for killing a female if it is legal because if we are divided we will continue to lose opportunities. Tigers and Jaguars hunted in SA is no different than dama gazelle and addax in Texas except tigers and jaguars are way cooler. Have at it boys. I'd love to hear more stories about it. If I could legal run jaguars with hounds in SA, id be tempted as all get out.

Legal is not always ethical. Sorry. There is a difference. For me, there is not enough information in the original post to make a judgment. But my preference will be to always hunt an animal in its natural habitat (its own playing field). And where the hunt benefits the animal in the prevention of its extinction.

 

[Diamondhitch]

...lion is indigenous to SA and not an endangered species. The Tiger and Jaguar were shipped in or bred outside of their native habitat...

If the only way to preserve these species is in a land far far away from home, so be it. The idealistic view is to have sustainable and flourishing populations in their native range but reality is often far from ideal for many reasons.

...Any money generated by hunting a Tiger in SA, is most generally only profiting the guy raising the Tiger. So, in short the "if it pays it stays" concept isn't applying to Tigers in India, Russia, or wherever else they are found. Basically it is a cash crop to the owner, right? Just saying.....

I agree and disagree. Certainly the money benefits the owner of the cat not the species but... whether intended or not, and regardless of conservation of a wild population of a species, raising them for profit guarantees them a place on this earth, even if it is not in their native wild state and even if not 1 red cent is put back to conservation of their wild kin.

It would be a shame to see a species reduced to this but it would be a careless and thoughtless act, similar to the antis position on hunting regardless of benefit to a species, to preclude any avenue that makes survival of these creatures as a species viable.

 

[Panielsen]

Legal or not, to me it isn't worth the money. Ethics aside, since we all seem to be on different sides of the fence, you can't import it into the States, You probably got to the field not long after it so not very sporting... I dunno, I think I'd rather hunt something I could import, possibly eat, have my trophy in the trophy room, and have hunted on it's turf. Not preaching ethics, no preaching about it's status in the world as far as numbers, just basic economic sense. Spend the money on lion, buff, elephant, or a group of plains game. That is where MY money would go.

 

[Panielsen]

Diamondhitch, we preach and justify our love of hunting African game is benefiting the animals as the money generated goes to anti-poaching etc, etc, etc.... Now, WHEN the anti-hunting group finds out that the same group claiming to be helping the games species is out killing imported/raised ENDANGERED species, and the money does NOT go to anti-poaching or anything else to benefit the animal or help it in it's natural habitat, then the entire argument will be lost in the general publics eye! Right now, hunting organizations and governments can prove that the revenue generated by hunters is backed by factual numbers. Take Botswana for example, read an article about how the elephants are in more danger now, and hunting has only been banned for a short time! More countries are getting on board as well as CITES and lifting restrictions on species. Yes, it is very true that animals that have a monetary value are worth something, and hunting is that ticket, I get that! I actually fully support that, but as hunters we are battling the Anti-hunting, tree hugging groups and if it gets out that those who claim to give a crap about the animals are shooting endangered game, WITHOUT the money supporting the species then battle over! Hell that Black Rhino hunt was awesome for the species and the government, they even took along CNN and STILL criticism... Just wait and see what happens if they catch wind of hunts like these. Like I had said, I don't fault the guy that wants the critter so bad that he will pay it. I fault those who don't look at the bigger picture about our sport and take strides to protect it.

 

[siml]

@Red Leg , I will totally agree with you about stepping into a cage and shooting a recently drugged animal. 5000 acres is definitely not a cage, nor was this tiger drugged, I can't speak for the rest. 99.9% of lions hunted in South Africa are bred for hunting, is that unethical?

 

[enysse]

I could give hoot what the anti-hunters think, they want all hunting banned. And they don't even care about conservation...it's all emotions with them. It's a fine line out there. Yes this is not true conservation hunting, but it fills a need. I will never do it, but if someone else wants to hunt this way, I say go for it. India...where ever tigers natural range use to be will never be the same again...Way too many people.

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg , I will totally agree with you about stepping into a cage and shooting a recently drugged animal. 5000 acres is definitely not a cage, nor was this tiger drugged, I can't speak for the rest. 99.9% of lions hunted in South Africa are bred for hunting, is that unethical?

Have discussed this extensively in several other threads - but in a word - yes.

 

[Diamondhitch]

Diamondhitch, we preach and justify our love of hunting African game is benefiting the animals as the money generated goes to anti-poaching etc, etc, etc.... Now, WHEN the anti-hunting group finds out that the same group claiming to be helping the games species is out killing imported/raised ENDANGERED species, and the money does NOT go to anti-poaching or anything else to benefit the animal or help it in it's natural habitat, then the entire argument will be lost in the general publics eye! Right now, hunting organizations and governments can prove that the revenue generated by hunters is backed by factual numbers. Take Botswana for example, read an article about how the elephants are in more danger now, and hunting has only been banned for a short time! More countries are getting on board as well as CITES and lifting restrictions on species. Yes, it is very true that animals that have a monetary value are worth something, and hunting is that ticket, I get that! I actually fully support that, but as hunters we are battling the Anti-hunting, tree hugging groups and if it gets out that those who claim to give a crap about the animals are shooting endangered game, WITHOUT the money supporting the species then battle over! Hell that Black Rhino hunt was awesome for the species and the government, they even took along CNN and STILL criticism... Just wait and see what happens if they catch wind of hunts like these. Like I had said, I don't fault the guy that wants the critter so bad that he will pay it. I fault those who don't look at the bigger picture about our sport and take strides to protect it.

The reasons you have cited as "our platform" are legitimate, however in order to not fall in the same trap that the antis are in where there is only 1 way and everything else be damned we need to be receptive to any measure that would serve to help preserve a species whether in the wild or in captivity. That is the goal of a true conservationist, that is what must be number one always, not our desire to hunt. Fortunately hunting can help conservation greatly in many ways, but make no mistake, while hunting and conservation are intertwined, they are not affixed. Rather they are separate symbiotic entities, to deny any form of preservation because of how it may be perceived lowers us to the level of those who push their own agendas at all cost.

Bottom line, conservation is preserving wildlife... period.
Hunting is a pastime and a tool, useful to serve conservation if practiced responsibly. (possibly the best tool) Responsibly means putting conservation above hunting and personal goals in all matters.

That is how we can justify hunting as it relates to conservation, and remain credible, by utilizing all means of preservation in pursuit of the true goal of conservation.

Our hunting desires and "rights" can be justified as they relate to conservation as long as conservation does not become our soap box to all ends.

 

[Powdermaker]

Got in on this discussion late, so I didn't take the time to read all five pages of comments so forgive me if my comment are redundant. First of all, thanks Jerome, for the post, it does make for interesting discussion.

Bottom line, conservation is preserving wildlife... period.
Hunting is a pastime and a tool, useful to serve conservation if practiced responsibly. (possibly the best tool) Responsibly means putting conservation above hunting and personal goals in all matters.

In my home province of Saskatchewan , you must take a Hunters Education Coarse before you can purchase a hunting license. Part of the coarse deals with ethics and conservation. Now I took this coarse over 40 years ago, but one thing stuck with me: The definition of conservation was described as the "wise use of a resource" . I always liked that definition. Consequently, I have to disagree with Diamondhitch. I look at conservation and preservation as two different camps. The anti-hunters are all about preservation, regardless of the long term consequences. As hunters we should be promoting conservation. So, getting back to Tiger hunting in Africa.....is this the wise use of a resource? In my opinion it is not. Certainly, a few individuals will be able to turn a profit by promoting this activity, but that doesn't mean it is ethical. There are a lot of examples of non-native (feral ) wildlife being hunted around the world. For example; water buffalo hunting in Australia is acceptable to most people, as a means of controlling a non-native species. However, most people wouldn't accept the release of African Cape buffalo in Australia, for hunting purposes. Likewise, tiger hunting in Africa does't pass the litmus test. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Foxi]

I don't mean to tell other people what to do, it's just my standard.

It sounds good and normaly I would agree with you.
But are you quiet when your neighbour is beating his wife or his children or doing other things ?
No.

Tell hunters from Zambia ,Zimbabwe or Tansania ,that you are also a lion hunter,but in South Africa and you get their respect immediately
Canned hunting on big cats is a shame ! A shame !
Foxi

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I am against all sorts of "pet" "hunting".
No matter if it is a lion in South Africa or a red stag in New Zealand.

If the tiger, jaguar or lion is released inside a large high fence area and left there for some months before the hunt, I support it.

But how it mostly is done, I really don't like it at all, and I have big difficulties understanding how people can be proud of their "tame" trophy that have been released a few hours or days before the "hunt" and often still full of drugs.

I realize it can be very dangerous and a adrenaline rush to "hunt" these "tame" cats that are not afraid of people, but I don't think it is hunting.

 

[K-man]

I think you missed the whole point of my post. Re-read it again, please. The first part says, does the animal know it is fenced? And equating a legal hunt with an illegal act against another human is just bonkers. That sounds like the same crap that anti-hunters spew out, not gentleman hunters on this forum. You need to take a step back and read before you hit "reply"

It sounds good and normaly I would agree with you.
But are you quiet when your neighbour is beating his wife or his children or doing other things ?
No.

Tell hunters from Zambia ,Zimbabwe or Tansania ,that you are also a lion hunter,but in South Africa and you get their respect immediately
Canned hunting on big cats is a shame ! A shame !
Foxi
View attachment 42755

T

 

[Foxi]

I think you missed the whole point of my post. Re-read it again, please.
The first part says, does the animal know it is fenced? And equating a legal hunt with an illegal act against another human is just bonkers. That sounds like the same crap that anti-hunters spew out, not gentleman hunters on this forum. You need to take a step back and read before you hit "reply"
T

does the animal know it is fenced:
this is absolut unimportant-I know it,thats enough.

Cats breeded in better cages and then out when a client lays the money on the table.
Legal .But not in order.
Read the advertising section "Farmes Weekly " -Cats over Cats (mostlyLions)

The thread starter wants to know our opinion about that.
Here is the mine.
Apologise,that I have misjudged you.
Yes I'm an anti.
I'm against zooshooting from big cats and sell that as hunting.
Foxi

 

[Wouter Roets]

Hi Guys

Just for the record. There is a very big population of tigers in South Africa. A lot of lion breeders also have tigers in breeding programs for reasons only known to themselves. Maybe they just like them or maybe they see a future in the hunting of them or maybe they are just concerned over their survival. They do extremely well in captivity and breeding programs. Currently tiger hunting is a rarity but does happen. As far as I know there is no export permits available but hunting of them is legal. This has to do with our laws not making allowance for foreign animals bred in SA. These laws are being revised as we speak.

Most if not all of these animals was purchased or received without costs from zoo's that was overcrowded. I have been offered Siberian, Bengal and Indian tigers with regularity from breeders and brokers.

Tigers natural habitat definitely does not only constitute jungle(tropic) and forested snowfall areas(Siberia). Their habitat constitutes a wide variety of habitats and you would be hard pressed to see the difference between some of their natural homeland and African regions without being a botanical expert.

One PH that specialized mainly on lion hunting has hunted two tigers. On the second one a big male Siberian was shot point blank in the face with a 460 Wheatherby. The shot miraculously missed brain and spine. It was not knocked down but fled of only to receive three more shots before it went down for the count. He assures me that he has never experienced this reaction from a lion and till this day he says that experience haunts him.

Most of the breeders also reports extreme intelligence and awareness far exceeding that of lion. They continuously tests the live wires and adapt very fast to freedom in bigger areas. It normally takes them lees time than a lion to make their firs kill.

My thoughts on conservation. We are living in a strange and complex world. The end resort of conservation is showing that animal to my kids and theirs albeit it not being on their natural habitat and not in a picture book or internet. Make use of any means in succeeding in this purpose. If this means hunting them then so be it.

Regards
Wouter

 

[billc]

All these threads go the same way. You hunt a raised cat your not a hunter or if it was not hunted in tanz.,zim or moz those ph don't respect it. But none of those guys have a problem hunting bait they put out or cutting an ele or buff track from some man made waterhole. Why do you hunt bait or water so you can cut down the area normally to be hunted and the animals come to those areas. I dont care if you hunt a million acres when there is limited water your not hunting the million acres. WE all know you dont go to the far side of the million acres with no water and start hunting.

Now if that makes you better then the guys who hunted raised cats or other game great for you. For the record I don't care if you hunt bait ,water or raised high fence areas it is all hunting plan and simple. IF it is legal and done right why complain to help the other side. Not all are for everyone but you don't have to do any you dont like.

I just know all the talk about raised animals period helps one group and that is the anti- hunters. So if the guys who complains about this and think they are helping anyone but the anti hunters your kidding yourself. When the goal is to stop hunting they don't care if it is raised or born in the wild.

Why we lose to the anti-hunters all the time and less people hunt. Bow guys think rifles are bad and then rifle hunters think bows are no good. Then trophy hunters think there better the meat hunters and hunters just fight with each other. What do the antis do they stick together and all just hate hunting and the killing of any animal. You don't have to like it or support it even but talking bad about any hunting other then illegal stuff is not good for any hunter.

 

[NickyMaz]

Here's my two cents on this. As others have said there is almost no chance to ever hunt these animals in there natural range for a multitude of reasons and I have no issue with them being hunted. If they can be preserved in another area I think that's a good thing. Others have pointed out the Scimitar Oryx as an example of this.

We hunt animals outside their natural ranges all the time whether it's fallow deer in South Africa, Tahr in New Zealand, or Scimitar Oryx or Blackbuck in Texas. Clearly these animals (and their species) are better off and I think there is nothing wrong with hunting them and I would love to go on these hunts any day.

It's a shame the South African model isn't being adopted in places like India or Central America so we could preserve the tiger and jaguar and allow the opportunity for sportsmen to hunt them. Until that happens (which I think is very unlikely) the next best thing is to bring them to a place that allows that. As far as the conduct of the specific hunts I would like to see them as 'un-canned' as possible.