What’s the thoughts on the .223 on all plains game with a match bullet trend?

[Doug Hamilton]

Yup, you are open-minded and not caustic at all....and certainly seeking truth.

You should never let your mind be so open that your brain falls out...

 

[375Fox]

You should never let your mind be so open that your brain falls out...

I’ve never heard that statement before but that’s a great statement

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I’ve never heard that statement before but that’s a great statement

I used to say it a lot to offenders and when training new officers in the prison system.

No one should be so accepting that they throw common sense out. Maybe we could teach that to some of these "woke" radicals?

 

[Zambezi]

As a data driven argument that's all good and well. Except that the data is derived at the expense of animals we want to dispatch humanely and at the expense of ever increasing animosity towards the sport we participate in.

Lets say, for the case of argument, that this idea now takes off. The .223 is the most common calibre in the USA. Now every yahoo with an AR simply goes out and buys match bullets because he has heard they are the way to go for all plains game. This is going to result in a lot of wounded animals. Why, I hear you ask? Simply because not all of those Shooters (not Hunters) have the skill or patience to wait for the perfect shot at the perfect distance. Why would they? They have the latest data showing that .223 can be used on all plains game.

They are not going to ALL be using the best bullet because that is the nature of the human. They are not going to wait for the perfect shot for the same reason. This results in very little margin for error and marginal shots being taken. The .223 shooter has to have the stars align for success (shot placement, distance, etc).

Scenario: Kudu at 200m slightly quartering to/away. Or even broadside.
You have a .223 with "the wonder bullet" pushing 77gn or 30.06 A-frames pushing 180gn...

All things being equal (perfect shot placement to take out heart /lung), the 30.06 drops the animal 99/100... the .223 I would GUESS 80-90/100. Even on the high side that is unacceptable failure rate just to prove a point. Being generous the .223 is marginal at best.

Pushing this ".223 is good for all plains game" is not only cruel to the animals we hunt but is also dangerous to our sport if it becomes mainstream. Advocating for the "benefits" of it is ludicrous!

 

[matt85]

See the signature under my post. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

 

[Flewis]

But it has to be true, I read it on the internet.

 

[TMac]

Over the past 15 ish years I’ve had my kids and grands, when very young/small, use a 223 for game up to the size of mule deer. All medium to smaller specimens, 225 pounds/100 kg ish sized. 62 gr. Fusion bonded bullets mostly, one with a 77 gr. TMK.

We use it in bolt action rifles and keep ranges modest. So far results are stellar, all one shot kills. The 77 gr TMK was almost too damaging on the deer relative to meat loss. It did not exit on a small deer.

This is a rifle they can shoot often at the range and with the near zero recoil, basically zero when suppressed, so they shoot it very well. Once they grow some we move them up to a .243, .257 and then a .277 caliber rifle.

Would I use it for elk/moose, no. But for smaller game, with proper bullet selection, it is lethal and a viable choice for smaller shooters.

 

[Jeff505]

I have read thru all 8 pages of this post and have come to some conclusions based on the evidence presented, I think these positions I am about to take are a result of careful study. So let’s look at some facts.

Fact 1- A 223 is a little bullet.
Fact 2- Some animals are big.
Fact 3 - Some men are small and can’t tolerate recoil.
Fact 4 - Some men don’t have lots of money to spend on big bullets.
Fact 5 - Some men who hype 223s don’t drink whiskey ( I don’t no why I added this)
Fact 6 - A creature of the forest can grow to a majestic size, how cheap for it to lose its life to an undignified caliber.
Fact 7 - Some men own cats.
Fact 8 - Some guns are black and have plastic stocks.
Fact 9 - Some men dress in women’s clothing.

These are 9 obvious facts that I don’t think will be disputed, I am sure other members will add to this list. So if a man were to hunt an eland with a 223 does that mean he is light in the loafers, not necessarily. If he also owns a cat and wears womens clothes, then yes I would say from a caliber standpoint that he
has blurred the line between hunting and cross dressing.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this discussion, I hope I was able to add some clarity to this area of dispute.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

See the signature under my post. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Hey there matt85!. Wasn't it you that that said the .223 was roughly equivalent to an 8 gauge double rifle? No? maybe I misread it. ;-).

 

[Ridge Runner]

I disagree, but that’s ok. Statements like, “All of the XYZ is designed to be inflammatory.” are themselves inflammatory. Why is it so hard to have an objective, data-based conversation about smaller calibers, just like we do all day with the larger calibers?

Margins. Yes. Control and accuracy are another end of the margins spectrum. There are plenty of real world reports about people shooting various Weatherby calibers that illustrate this. The ones that can control and be accurate with such calibers are sitting pretty!

There are Weatherbys, (eh) and then there are Weatherbys (yeah!).

There is a vast difference between the two!

Weatherby (yeah!) means the rifle is chambered for Weatherby designed ammo only. ie. 300 Weatherby, 460 Weatherby, etc, etc.

Then there's

Weatherby (eh) means it is a Weatherby rifle but chambered to fit the common calibers 300WM, 458WM, etc, etc.

The difference between the two are and have been the topic/complaint for generations past, present, and future.

IMO you used a bad example using Weatherby as a comparison.

You would be better off comparing Remington to Savage or Mossberg.

________________________________________________

Why is it so hard to have an objective, data-based conversation about smaller calibers, just like we do all day with the larger calibers?

I would be for an objective conversation for small bore calibers in the same manner as we have for big bore calibers.

Now, Let's discuss finding a (1) PH, a (1) tracker, who will risk their lives and yours to shoot any of the Dangerous 7 with your smaller bore, because you are of the opinion your small bore is just as effective as a big bore.

Or perhaps be a bit more fair we discuss your small caliber using heavy for caliber bullets versus a bigger caliber using a proper weight bullet both bullets traveling at 2700+, 2800+, 2900+/- fps velocity once it hits the 4th rib bone solid center mass, on a quartering away shot, on an eland at 300 yards.

Since this is a hypothetical discussion we can discuss kinetic energy as in foot pounds of knock down power.

Even better we will omit custom reloads and just compare factory available ammo.

________________________________________________

Or

We can have a more, better, informative discussion on small caliber optimums for small to medium game. And what small caliber, bullet weight, bullet velocity, etc works best for hunting certain species.

Pretty much the same as we discuss bigger bores on large game.
________________________________________________

Oh yeah,.....We are discussing legal firearms for Africa and Canada and pretty worldwide,....minus USA.....your AR is history. Your only firearm action choices are: double, bolt action, or lever action (where legal), rifle.

 

[Safari Dave]

I have read thru all 8 pages of this post and have come to some conclusions based on the evidence presented, I think these positions I am about to take are a result of careful study. So let’s look at some facts.

Fact 1- A 223 is a little bullet.
Fact 2- Some animals are big.
Fact 3 - Some men are small and can’t tolerate recoil.
Fact 4 - Some men don’t have lots of money to spend on big bullets.
Fact 5 - Some men who hype 223s don’t drink whiskey ( I don’t no why I added this)
Fact 6 - A creature of the forest can grow to a majestic size, how cheap for it to lose its life to an undignified caliber.
Fact 7 - Some men own cats.
Fact 8 - Some guns are black and have plastic stocks.
Fact 9 - Some men dress in women’s clothing.

These are 9 obvious facts that I don’t think will be disputed, I am sure other members will add to this list. So if a man were to hunt an eland with a 223 does that mean he is light in the loafers, not necessarily. If he also owns a cat and wears womens clothes, then yes I would say from a caliber standpoint that he
has blurred the line between hunting and cross dressing.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this discussion, I hope I was able to add some clarity to this area of dispute.

Have at it man!

IMO, a .223 will take any animal that walks the earth, under the right conditions.

However, I don't often find myself in optimal conditions. In NA, a .30/06 will be most likely to be in my hands.

I'm still "old school" when it comes to projectiles, although I have and do use the latest and greatest when I choose to hunt with smaller cartridges.

I usually go for "overkill" because I want to be ready with the buck of a lifetime steps out at 500 yards or a 400 pound black bear shows herself.

I also want to be ready, to use whatever the local hardware store might have in stock, if all of my luggage doesn't make it (which has happened to me before).

No doubt, we can all, probably, can shoot a lighter recoiling rifle more accurately than we can one with more recoil, all things being equal.


Just based on personal experience, I'm not a fan of a .243 Winchester - I've had to make 2 perfect shots on a whitetail buck (15 minutes apart) to get a kill.

My hunting partner made a good shot on a pronghorn with a .243 Winchester. It got up, and was, literally, trotting off into the sunset, when I handed him my .270 Winchester to anchor it for good.


I am a scientist.

I know "anecdotal" evidence, is not evidence.

 

[Safari Dave]

There are Weatherbys, (eh) and then there are Weatherbys (yeah!).

There is a vast difference between the two!

Weatherby (yeah!) means the rifle is chambered for Weatherby designed ammo only. ie. 300 Weatherby, 460 Weatherby, etc, etc.

Then there's

Weatherby (eh) means it is a Weatherby rifle but chambered to fit the common calibers 300WM, 458WM, etc, etc.

The difference between the two are and have been the topic/complaint for generations past, present, and future.

IMO you used a bad example using Weatherby as a comparison.

You would be better off comparing Remington to Savage or Mossberg.

________________________________________________



I would be for an objective conversation for small bore calibers in the same manner as we have for big bore calibers.

Now, Let's discuss finding a (1) PH, a (1) tracker, who will risk their lives and yours to shoot any of the Dangerous 7 with your smaller bore, because you are of the opinion your small bore is just as effective as a big bore.

Or perhaps be a bit more fair we discuss your small caliber using heavy for caliber bullets versus a bigger caliber using a proper weight bullet both bullets traveling at 2700+, 2800+, 2900+/- fps velocity once it hits the 4th rib bone solid center mass, on a quartering away shot, on an eland at 300 yards.

Since this is a hypothetical discussion we can discuss kinetic energy as in foot pounds of knock down power.

Even better we will omit custom reloads and just compare factory available ammo.

________________________________________________

Or

We can have a more, better, informative discussion on small caliber optimums for small to medium game. And what small caliber, bullet weight, bullet velocity, etc works best for hunting certain species.

Pretty much the same as we discuss bigger bores on large game.
________________________________________________

Oh yeah,.....We are discussing legal firearms for Africa and Canada and pretty worldwide,....minus USA.....your AR is history. Your only firearm action choices are: double, bolt action, or lever action (where legal), rifle.

Do not count Weatherby cartridges within the the realm of "normal" cartridges.

Roy must have met the devil at the crossroads...

 

[Inline6]

There are Weatherbys, (eh) and then there are Weatherbys (yeah!).

There is a vast difference between the two!

Weatherby (yeah!) means the rifle is chambered for Weatherby designed ammo only. ie. 300 Weatherby, 460 Weatherby, etc, etc.

Then there's

Weatherby (eh) means it is a Weatherby rifle but chambered to fit the common calibers 300WM, 458WM, etc, etc.

The difference between the two are and have been the topic/complaint for generations past, present, and future.

IMO you used a bad example using Weatherby as a comparison.

You would be better off comparing Remington to Savage or Mossberg.

________________________________________________



I would be for an objective conversation for small bore calibers in the same manner as we have for big bore calibers.

Now, Let's discuss finding a (1) PH, a (1) tracker, who will risk their lives and yours to shoot any of the Dangerous 7 with your smaller bore, because you are of the opinion your small bore is just as effective as a big bore.

Or perhaps be a bit more fair we discuss your small caliber using heavy for caliber bullets versus a bigger caliber using a proper weight bullet both bullets traveling at 2700+, 2800+, 2900+/- fps velocity once it hits the 4th rib bone solid center mass, on a quartering away shot, on an eland at 300 yards.

Since this is a hypothetical discussion we can discuss kinetic energy as in foot pounds of knock down power.

Even better we will omit custom reloads and just compare factory available ammo.

________________________________________________

Or

We can have a more, better, informative discussion on small caliber optimums for small to medium game. And what small caliber, bullet weight, bullet velocity, etc works best for hunting certain species.

Pretty much the same as we discuss bigger bores on large game.
________________________________________________

Oh yeah,.....We are discussing legal firearms for Africa and Canada and pretty worldwide,....minus USA.....your AR is history. Your only firearm action choices are: double, bolt action, or lever action (where legal), rifle.

I'm not following your logic.

If we do not try different things we would still be stuck with sharp sticks.

 

[Sheldor]

70 grain Barnes TSX has worked really well for me. I used 5.56 for a few seasons out of a 14.5 inch Noveske project ARES. I only had one doe not drop on the spot. 3 does and one decent buck taken.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I'm not following your logic.

If we do not try different things we would still be stuck with sharp sticks.

AR/military surplus rifles are legal to use in the US.
AR/military surplus rifles are illegal to import into most other countries.
________________________________________________

When Weatherby initially marketed his firearms they did not use standard ammunition. When purchasing a Weatherby caliber the purchaser was destined to purchase Weatherby because the Weatherby firearm wouldn't chamber standard cartridges. ie a 7mm Weatherby is not the same as a 7mm Win.

Since then, and those early days of Weatherby initial production firearms, Weatherby has been manufacturing firearms in standard calibers.

Also when Weatherby initially started manufacturing firearms and ammunition they came with a hefty price. Buying a Weatherby factory firearm back then, the purchaser was essentially buying a custom gun compared to buying a Winchester, Remington, or Browning in that era.
_______________________________________________

Small bores/calibers are meant for small and medium thin skin game.

Middle bores/calibers are meant for medium thick skin big game.

Big bores/calibers are meant for tough skin, heavy muscle Big game and especially for dangerous game.

Just because ballistics say it can. Would you trust your life to any small caliber, ie 223/5.56, 22CM, 22-250, etc. in a double rifle, bolt rifle, lever action rifle to stop a pissed off elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, hippo charging at you from 15 yards or less?

 

[Inline6]

AR/military surplus rifles are legal to use in the US.
AR/military surplus rifles are illegal to import into most other countries.
________________________________________________

When Weatherby initially marketed his firearms they did not use standard ammunition. When purchasing a Weatherby caliber the purchaser was destined to purchase Weatherby because the Weatherby firearm wouldn't chamber standard cartridges. ie a 7mm Weatherby is not the same as a 7mm Win.

Since then, and those early days of Weatherby initial production firearms, Weatherby has been manufacturing firearms in standard calibers.

Also when Weatherby initially started manufacturing firearms and ammunition they came with a hefty price. Buying a Weatherby factory firearm back then, the purchaser was essentially buying a custom gun compared to buying a Winchester, Remington, or Browning in that era.
_______________________________________________

Small bores/calibers are meant for small and medium thin skin game.

Middle bores/calibers are meant for medium thick skin big game.

Big bores/calibers are meant for tough skin, heavy muscle Big game and especially for dangerous game.

Just because ballistics say it can. Would you trust your life to any small caliber, ie 223/5.56, 22CM, 22-250, etc. in a double rifle, bolt rifle, lever action rifle to stop a pissed off elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, hippo charging at you from 15 yards or less?

I'm not sure who said they were planning on taking an AR hunting in Africa? Plenty of bolt guns chamber in 223.
____________________________________________

Weatherby believed speed kills, he was doing things other were not. His work still stands, guess he got something more right than wrong.
____________________________________________

Conventional thoughts, many people have successfully taken large animals. With what many on this forum consider small caliber. While I am not advocating that practice, some people have limits of what they can handle. If someone could only handle up to a 7mm. It would be nice for that person doing research to know they can kill and Eland. They would need the proper bullets and good shot placement to make that happen. Truth is people show up over gunned and hit animals in spots other than the correct area, due to flinching. I would be that happens as much or more than animals lost with to small of a caliber.
____________________________________________

Who said anything about using a 22cal for a stopping rifle? The same could be said with 30-06, would you feel comfortable with that in your hands in the same situation? Someone I'm sure will say yes. Stopping rifle are a completely different subject. I'll take it a step further, some PHs use a 375h&h for a stopping rifle, manly due to funds. Most would want the first number to start with a 4 at a minimum if I had to guess.
____________________________________________

We are at times quick to discount what does not fit into our box of ideas. Yet some of the ideas work really well (Think about CEB bullets for example). Have been shooting and hunting for the last 40 years, I'm learning everyday.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I'm not following your logic.

If we do not try different things we would still be stuck with sharp sticks.

Do you remember Major Khan? He used to write a lot on AH about hunting in India when it was still legal. He wrote often about a friend of his that was a shikari and guided a hunter to a tiger and he shot it with a .22-250. Head shot if I remember right. The tiger killed the hunter. the Indian government hanged the guide for allowing such a stupid stunt.

I'm working off memory, so a detail could be off, but the bottom line is that hunter shot a tiger with a .22-250 (or maybe .220 Swift?) Tiger killed hunter. Guide was executed for it. Maybe Hunter-Habib knows more?

Trying new things is fine but being experimental should not overrule common sense.

 

[IvW]

223 is a great jackal caliber......

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I'm not sure who said they were planning on taking an AR hunting in Africa? Plenty of bolt guns chamber in 223.
____________________________________________

Weatherby believed speed kills, he was doing things other were not. His work still stands, guess he got something more right than wrong.
____________________________________________

Conventional thoughts, many people have successfully taken large animals. With what many on this forum consider small caliber. While I am not advocating that practice, some people have limits of what they can handle. If someone could only handle up to a 7mm. It would be nice for that person doing research to know they can kill and Eland. They would need the proper bullets and good shot placement to make that happen. Truth is people show up over gunned and hit animals in spots other than the correct area, due to flinching. I would be that happens as much or more than animals lost with to small of a caliber.
____________________________________________

Who said anything about using a 22cal for a stopping rifle? The same could be said with 30-06, would you feel comfortable with that in your hands in the same situation? Someone I'm sure will say yes. Stopping rifle are a completely different subject. I'll take it a step further, some PHs use a 375h&h for a stopping rifle, manly due to funds. Most would want the first number to start with a 4 at a minimum if I had to guess.
____________________________________________

We are at times quick to discount what does not fit into our box of ideas. Yet some of the ideas work really well (Think about CEB bullets for example). Have been shooting and hunting for the last 40 years, I'm learning everyday.

I believe Weatherby was marketing novelty as much if not more than anything else. He dressed his rifles up a LOT and made them in unique proprietary very sharp-shouldered, sharp-recoiling cartridges. If you owned a Weatherby you owned something very expensive and very special. Was 300 Weatherby really that much better elk killer than plain jane Win Model 70 300 Win Mag or Remington 700 in 7mm Magnum? Meh. But the people who used up their kids' lunch money to buy one had to convince themselves owning a Weatherby made them special elk killers. Why not? Who wants to be normal? Life's too short. "Maybe I can't go to Africa but I can own an African elephant gun. That's something ... and something is better than normal."

I think that's what this goofy 223 fad really boils down to: people exploring ways to make themselves be special. I get that. But hey, go take up rock climbing or stock car racing. Something where the explorerer only risks screwing himself up, not some of Nature's wonderous creations.

 

[375Ruger416]

We have wandered far from the OP’s original question - what is people’s opinions of 77 gr Match bullets in 223 for PLAINS GAME? There has been a significant move towards smaller calibers and bullets from the time of 8 bore double rifles which has continued through the ultra-high velocity era exemplified by the Weatherby (to give maximum PBR and compensate for the lack of bullet mass) and more recently Nosler cartridges. The move from solid bullets to expanding bullets has also been a trend which has increased tissue damage relative to the size and weight of projectile used. The Berger, Hornady ELD-M, and Sierra TMK exemplify this trend.

The combination of the smallest possible caliber for hunting- 22 with very frangible bullets is pushing the limits of both these trends. This increases the risk of failure IMO. I have taken pronghorn with an ELD-M and it was DRT. However, it was a small framed animal and I was using a 6.5 CM 147gr which gives some room for penetration due to momentum and bullet mass even with low retained bullet weight. Others, like Gunwerks, have taken many, many animals with Berger’s and ELD-M. Setting aside the ethics of extreme long-range hunting, I believe they work within the following parameters: modest velocity, heavy for caliber, and adequate caliber to counterbalance the potential for bullet ‘blowup’ and inadequate penetration to the vitals or, conversely, bullet pencilling and not expanding at all. Gunwerks recommends a 7mm - I.e. LRM, Rem Mag, PRC as having the optimum balance of terminal performance and modest recoil.

Returning to 223 and rapidly expanding match bullets, I am aware of the reports of their ‘good’ performance on a wide variety of game. If going this route however, I would go with a modest recoiling cartridge with a similar muzzle and impact velocity with similar sectional density increasing the margin for error. Say a 6.5 with 140gr, 7mm-08 with 140gr, 30 cal with 160 gr range or if you have to go with the smallest possible 6mm with 105gr (the 6mm CM also has quite a good reputation in this realm). If I bought into this approach, I would still go with a caliber that is legal in a wide variety of jurisdictions and MATCH the caliber to the game. 5.56 is ok for small deer sized game IMO. Not great, but adequate. There is too much evidence anecdotal or otherwise that it works to ignore. To take that to mean it is a good idea on larger, tougher and stronger framed plains game is an exaggeration of the evidence (limited external validity, low quality evidence (anecdotal).

Clean kills are the result of good shot placement, adequate penetration, and tissue destruction (either by adequate original caliber, expansion, or a combination of both). I choose to use calibers generally accepted for the game being targeted, modest muzzle velocity (2500-3000 fps), heavy for caliber, reasonable recoil, with projectiles that both penetrate and expand. For my upcoming trip to Namibia, I was planning to use a 6.5 PRC for smaller plains game and 375 H&H for eland. Unfortunately, I’m still waiting for my R8 and haven’t had time to get familiar with it yet. So, I’m taking a 300 PRC and using 208 gr LRX. They are designed to expand more rapidly than TSX and penetrate deep. Other ‘balanced’ projectiles include the accubond, partition, CX, Tipped Game King, ELD-X, Swift A-frame and Scirrocco. Given the quality and variety of hunting bullets on the market there I don’t see any reason to use anything else.

For specific use (culling in expert hands and hunting smaller game for beginning hunters), match bullets in 223 may have their place. For general hunting use, there are simply better options. The ability to penetrate to the vitals from any reasonable shot angle AND expand to increase tissue damage is simply too valuable to not use. No reason we can’t have a civil discussion about it though.