What’s the thoughts on the .223 on all plains game with a match bullet trend ?

[Elkeater]

I have seen that particular .223 for big game thread. I do agree with using a .223 on many deer and smaller game animals effectively. I personally use 63gr absolute hammers at 3210fps in a .223 for a fair number of things from hogs to deer, and of course coyotes, fox, etc. It actually does a fantastic job and no I haven’t missed or lost an animal out of the probably 20-30 hogs/deer/feral goats I’ve taken. I do keep shot distances under 200 yards as well.

I would personally have no problem using a 60-70gr bonded or monolithic bullet in PG like Impala, Springbok, blesbok, and of course the tiny ten critters and many night critters like serval, porcupine, genet, etc. This of course if it’s legal to use.

I would NOT be trying a .223 with any bullet on any wildebeest, kudu, eland, or anything else bigger than a Blesbok sized critter.

 

[skydiver386]

Barnes makes a .224 62g TTSX that would be a killing machine with the right cartridge, rifle and shooter...
No way would I want to see anyone doing it with varmint or match bullets....In any caliber....

For some small Deer and Antelope species, this might be an ideal bullet. Tiny Ten sized animals, etc., but Eland and Kudu?

I may be wrong, but I see the World dividing into two groups, hunters and shooters. Hunters obviously shoot, but shooters don't necessarily hunt. My money says anyone that believes such a bullet, cartridge combination is appropriate for Eland, is a shooter, but is far from an ethical hunter.

 

[Ridge Runner]

And of course a gassed up .22 bullet is so effective shooting through jungle brush. Pfft.

"Spray and pray." I heard that thinking kept the chaplains busy.

Six to remove and care for wounded + the wounded = seven off the battlefield, in theory anyway. I suspect Pentagon analysts greatly exaggerated the quality of health care in North Vietnam.

Shoot em to wound only with dinky .223. If that doesn't work, incinerate with napalm. Hmmm.

LMFAO....on that last one.

Pretty sure the complaining mommies didn't think about other weapons or military branches killing opposing forces: ie artillery, Air Force bombers, helicopter pilots in gunships, etc.

Those complaining mommies also didn't think of their "babies" having enough firepower to defend themselves to stay alive long enough to return home.
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JMO
Had the M16 been calibered in 6.8 SPC, .243, etc., and with better quality more reliable ammo, anything but .223/5.56 it would have been more favorably accepted.

 

[Josh P]

The response to this topic in general is a pretty good way to gauge a person’s reading comprehension, open/closed mindedness, and willingness to observe and accept objective data-based information for making informed decisions on specific heavy-for-caliber choices. Nuance is a thing.

Use your favorite search engine to find the “223 for bear, deer, elk, moose” thread on that forum and actually read the reports of ethical hunters, look at the photographic evidence of the terminal ballistics, and make an informed decision.

Zero ethical hunters are advocating for the use of 55gr FMJs out of 1/12 twist M16 barrels. They are making an argument for heavy bullets, with a proven terminal ballistics performance, at appropriate velocities, as being an entirely different performer. Anyone who outright dismisses the possibility of 223 being ethically appropriate for anything above coyote hunting has simply not done the research.

Side note: the 77gr sierra match king is best noted for it’s performance in the GWOT era as feed for the MK12 (1/7 twist, 16” and 18” barrels) and the MK18 (1/7 twist 10.3” barrel) for taking down “game” that shoots back. Sierra does not market this “match” bullet for its (very under-advertised) terminal ballistic qualities, but rather for its external ballistic qualities. It is now gaining traction beyond target shooting as its terminal ballistic capabilities are being made known.

 

[Sketchy1973]

I just wasted 5 minutes of my life read this thread.

 

[Sika98k]

I was at a country show near Outjo, Namibia in 2019. There were some professional cull hunters there.
These people go to farms in Namibia and cull excess game. Springbok, impala and oryx. Firearms of choice,223,22/250 or 243.
Headshots only. Having seen one in action I was impressed. The guy I was accompanying used a 22/250 with home loaded rounds, Sierra 55 grain soft points.

 

[375Fox]

The response to this topic in general is a pretty good way to gauge a person’s reading comprehension, open/closed mindedness, and willingness to observe and accept objective data-based information for making informed decisions on specific heavy-for-caliber choices. Nuance is a thing.

Use your favorite search engine to find the “223 for bear, deer, elk, moose” thread on that forum and actually read the reports of ethical hunters, look at the photographic evidence of the terminal ballistics, and make an informed decision.

Zero ethical hunters are advocating for the use of 55gr FMJs out of 1/12 twist M16 barrels. They are making an argument for heavy bullets, with a proven terminal ballistics performance, at appropriate velocities, as being an entirely different performer. Anyone who outright dismisses the possibility of 223 being ethically appropriate for anything above coyote hunting has simply not done the research.

Side note: the 77gr sierra match king is best noted for it’s performance in the GWOT era as feed for the MK12 (1/7 twist, 16” and 18” barrels) and the MK18 (1/7 twist 10.3” barrel) for taking down “game” that shoots back. Sierra does not market this “match” bullet for its (very under-advertised) terminal ballistic qualities, but rather for its external ballistic qualities. It is now gaining traction beyond target shooting as its terminal ballistic capabilities are being made known.

I’d say it’s a better way to judge someone’s respect for the game animals they are hunting. Advocating a 223 for elk and moose is inappropriate regardless how much justification is done to try and say it isn’t. How many wounded animals were left in the field for each one with positive results?

 

[mdwest]

put enough velocity on a mini marshmallow, and you can kill a buffalo with it...

but is it a good idea?

I think anyone advocating for a 223 being a good solution for something like a paid kudu, waterbuck, eland, etc type hunt is either silly.. or simply foolish...

Why put yourself in a position where a) you have zero margin of error... b) have the potential to even if you kill the animal, end up having to spend hours tracking.. all the while the animal is suffering before dying.... when you c) had the option to use what everyone else on the planet knows is a more suitable cartridge?

Even if I have no concern for the animal and could care less that it might be wounded, suffering, etc.. (which would be shitty).. why would I be willing to stroke a $2-$3K check on a trophy fee that could have otherwise been underwritten by something that even Ray Charles could see was a better option for ensuring a quick kill and a fast recovery of the animal?

Im going to say its a pretty safe bet that the majority of people that would advocate a medium to large sized African antelope hunt with a .22 of any sort (22-250, 223, 220 swift, etc..etc..) have never hunted medium to large sized African antelope.. and they are simply squawking information from ballistics charts rather than speaking from actual experience...

 

[Mekaniks]

I’d say it’s a better way to judge someone’s respect for the game animals they are hunting. Advocating a 223 for elk and moose is inappropriate regardless how much justification is done to try and say it isn’t. How many wounded animals were left in the field for each one with positive results?

Yes sir

This thread is a perfect example that-
Some learn by reading…
Some learn by watching….
Some just gotta pee on the electric fence themselves….

 

[Josh P]

I’d say it’s a better way to judge someone’s respect for the game animals they are hunting. Advocating a 223 for elk and moose is inappropriate regardless how much justification is done to try and say it isn’t. How many wounded animals were left in the field for each one with positive results?

Ok, let me preface my response. It’s easy for me (to my own ears, after the fact) sound rude or harsh when I try to have a factual conversation. While I’ve never been diagnosed by a doctor,

…there are certain traits that may make me come across as impersonal, and I wish to avoid that. If the recipient isn’t as black/white in their thinking about data, it can be perceived differently than intended.


Now, there is a thread that has been mentioned that has hundreds of pages of posts discussing, almost verbatim, the same from-the-hip responses to the subject of 223 bullets for hunting. You can not lump all 223 projectiles and targets under one heading, just the same as you can’t say that because mid century 458wm performance was unsatisfactory you should not use modern loaded 458wm on African game.

I’m not advocating for the use of any particular projectiles on any particular game species on any particular continent. What I am advocating for is to do some reading before coming to a hard stance conclusion. There are now many examples of these bullets ethically killing grizzly bears, moose, elk, etc. Just look at the pictures and read the reports. That does not equate to me telling anyone, or even thinking, that they are appropriate for charging Cape buffalo, etc. I’m just saying that there is new, updated, modern and relevant information about the 223 caliber bullet that is, if nothing else, fascinating to read.

Wounded game? Ok, should we ban archery season because a lot of inexperienced hunters shoot deer in the hams with target points? Of course not. Their errors can be corrected with education, unless they actually are mentally deficient.

Read the thread with an open mind and see if your views on 223 are different afterwards. In general, again. Im not advocating for stopping a charge with a 223.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Professional cullers take head shots with zipper guns from bench rest in the back of a pickup. That's not hunting. It's shooting. If they miss the shot, no big deal. The animal is no worse for it. Just a little bit of powder and lead is wasted ... not a whole animal.

 

[Josh P]

Im going to say its a pretty safe bet that the majority of people that would advocate a medium to large sized African antelope hunt with a .22 of any sort (22-250, 223, 220 swift, etc..etc..) have never hunted medium to large sized African antelope.. and they are simply squawking information from ballistics charts rather than speaking from actual experience...

Again, I know we’re on an Africa hunting forum, but a lot of the argument against 223 for hunting in general is an argument against the caliber, and does not address weight and construction of the bullets themselves.

When I see fist- sized holes inside moose and grizzly, I don’t want to go shoot an African buffalo with one, but it gives me enough pause that I think it’s worth at least looking at accumulated data before I class 77gr otm bullets in the same camp as 55gr fmj varieties.

 

[375Fox]

Ok, let me preface my response. It’s easy for me (to my own ears, after the fact) sound rude or harsh when I try to have a factual conversation. While I’ve never been diagnosed by a doctor,
View attachment 627736
…there are certain traits that may make me come across as impersonal, and I wish to avoid that. If the recipient isn’t as black/white in their thinking about data, it can be perceived differently than intended.


Now, there is a thread that has been mentioned that has hundreds of pages of posts discussing, almost verbatim, the same from-the-hip responses to the subject of 223 bullets for hunting. You can not lump all 223 projectiles and targets under one heading, just the same as you can’t say that because mid century 458wm performance was unsatisfactory you should not use modern loaded 458wm on African game.

I’m not advocating for the use of any particular projectiles on any particular game species on any particular continent. What I am advocating for is to do some reading before coming to a hard stance conclusion. There are now many examples of these bullets ethically killing grizzly bears, moose, elk, etc. Just look at the pictures and read the reports. That does not equate to me telling anyone, or even thinking, that they are appropriate for charging Cape buffalo, etc. I’m just saying that there is new, updated, modern and relevant information about the 223 caliber bullet that is, if nothing else, fascinating to read.

Wounded game? Ok, should we ban archery season because a lot of inexperienced hunters shoot deer in the hams with target points? Of course not. Their errors can be corrected with education, unless they actually are mentally deficient.

Read the thread with an open mind and see if your views on 223 are different afterwards. In general, again. Im not advocating for stopping a charge with a 223.

I did attempt to read multiple pages of that thread. I stand by my opinion it’s inappropriate to even suggest and results in a lot of wounded game. I really don’t know what would motivate someone to use a 223 on large game animals other than a general lack of respect for what they are hunting. Maybe I’m closed minded on the subject but there are many more that are simply naive.

 

[Josh P]

I did attempt to read multiple pages of that thread. I stand by my opinion it’s inappropriate to even suggest and results in a lot of wounded game. I really don’t know what would motivate someone to use a 223 on large game animals other than a general lack of respect for what they are hunting. Maybe I’m closed minded on the subject but there are many more that are simply naive.

I agree about the naivety, on both sides. Just because “people on the internet” say one way or the other doesn’t mean it’s hard truth. Like many things in life, there are a variety of factors.

Looking at the terminal ballistics results of the bear and moose, do you honestly think it’s inappropriate for an experienced hunter to use the proper 223 bullet to hunt those animals?

 

[mdwest]

there is a world of difference between a 77gr bonded, quality made 223 projectile and a 55 gr FMJ projectile... there is no question about that...

that said.. the data accumulated on 60gr and heavier .223 (at least all of the data I have seen) clearly shows that 223 is not a reasonable caliber for medium to large PG..

will it work? absolutely.. thousands upon thousands of whitetail fall to .22 LR shot by poachers at 50 yards using flashlights at night... but that doesnt mean it is anywhere close to optimum for an actual hunt..

Especially when quite literally $2K or more is on the line with every trigger squeeze for the animals listed in the OP (assuming the shooter doesnt care about the animal.. but might care about his bank account)..

FWIW, I am extremely aware of the capabilities and limitations of 556/223 and the difference in performance between the most common light to heavy bullet weights and most of the actual projectiles being used to kill things.. I was personally involved in a T&E committee that selected which round a major metro SWAT team would carry based on performance records against both human and material targets (evaluated for penetration, under penetration, over penetration, expansion, permanent wound cavity, temp wound cavity, etc..etc..etc..).. spent countless hours talking to the FBI about their testing process and how they determined what was appropriate for them, etc..etc..etc..

My own home defense firearm is a 223 gun loaded with 62 gr bonded bullets that replicate the old FBI HRT load from the late 90's...

Having hunted dozens (granted, not hundreds.. but certainly not an insignificant number none the less) of large PG over the last decade.. and carried 223 rifles both domestically and internationally for both offensive and defensive purposes against humans for multiple decades... and having first hand seen what even the best performing rounds will do against a wide variety of mediums (to include humans and game animals)... as well as having been personally involved in a huge amount of research when we were converting from pistol caliber sub guns to centerfire rifles... Its my position that a 223 for kudu hunting is nothing short of stupid...

My opinion and .02 wont even buy a cup of coffee... so folks are welcome to take it or leave it...

 

[mdwest]

, do you honestly think it’s inappropriate for an experienced hunter to use the proper 223 bullet to hunt those animals?

in a word... YES...

It is wholly inappropriate..

because there is no proper 223 bullet for bear or moose..

I can easily kill a man with an ice pick...

does that mean its the best suited tool for the job?

or was that just the tool I selected? or was all that I had access too?

 

[Josh P]

I welcome your input on the subject, especially with that kind of experience. Law enforcement is a place where the 77gr projectiles are woefully underutilized, but that subject is something entirely different.

With my entirely lacking experience with PG, is it the size or the construction of the PG anatomy that gives you reason to believe the heavy 223 is inadequate?

 

[Sketchy1973]

Again, I know we’re on an Africa hunting forum, but a lot of the argument against 223 for hunting in general is an argument against the caliber, and does not address weight and construction of the bullets themselves.

When I see fist- sized holes inside moose and grizzly, I don’t want to go shoot an African buffalo with one, but it gives me enough pause that I think it’s worth at least looking at accumulated data before I class 77gr otm bullets in the same camp as 55gr fmj varieties.

I live in Washington state, our state requires 6mm or larger for medium game such as Black tail deer. 5.56/.223 isn't even a legal option, and it shouldn't be. So no, it's not even worth looking at. It's just dumb.

 

[Josh P]

because there is no proper 223 bullet for bear or moose..

I can easily kill a man with an ice pick...

does that mean its the best suited tool for the job?

I’ve attached some screenshots of one of the moose shot with a 223. I don’t see how the results are inadequate.

A man can kill an elephant with a 375 H&H, and if he’s going on a multi species hunt, some say it’s the best choice. If he were only hunting elephant, the same people would tell him to take a 470NE. Semantics, maybe.

 

[375Fox]

I agree about the naivety, on both sides. Just because “people on the internet” say one way or the other doesn’t mean it’s hard truth. Like many things in life, there are a variety of factors.

Looking at the terminal ballistics results of the bear and moose, do you honestly think it’s inappropriate for an experienced hunter to use the proper 223 bullet to hunt those animals?

Yes. How much trial and error did it take to arrive at that bullet? How many inexperienced hunters did they inspire to use a 223 instead of an appropriate cartridge with some margin for error? How many wounded animals were there for one with perfect results? Again, I really don’t know what would motivate someone to try using a 223 on large game except a lack of respect for the animal.