Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

[Hoss Delgado]

Correct...and with good reason....

.460 is only good if you can actually find somebody who can handle the recoil and shoot where he is aiming...a rare breed indeed. I never met one yet...

Most folks are better of with a .458 caliber between 2200-2400 fps...that is reality. On the front end you do not need the extra Mv anyway..

Never ever heard or know of any PH who has recommended a client to bring a 460 on safari...piece of crap, especially when on a Weatherby platform, fitted with a muzzle brake....eish

458 WM got me and the owners into too many bad situations before and I could never recommend that caliber after that...ever...

Rather use a 404, 416 or even a 375 but a 458 WM no thanks, not for me, same goes for the 460 Weatherby Magnum....

On a related subject , since you mentioned the .404 Jeffery , would the 400 grain Monolithic solids meant for use in a .404 Jeffery be acceptable for loading in 10.75 × 68 mm cases and fired from a 10.75 × 68mm rifle ?

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Correct...and with good reason....

.460 is only good if you can actually find somebody who can handle the recoil and shoot where he is aiming...a rare breed indeed. I never met one yet...

Most folks are better of with a .458 caliber between 2200-2400 fps...that is reality. On the front end you do not need the extra Mv anyway..

Never ever heard or know of any PH who has recommended a client to bring a 460 on safari...piece of crap, especially when on a Weatherby platform, fitted with a muzzle brake....eish

458 WM got me and the owners into too many bad situations before and I could never recommend that caliber after that...ever...

Rather use a 404, 416 or even a 375 but a 458 WM no thanks, not for me, same goes for the 460 Weatherby Magnum....

BTW , you're right about the .460 Weatherby . But l do know ONE PH who used to have one : Old John Knowles . He had a Weatherby Mark V in this caliber which had a broken stock held in place by epoxy and Land Rover door bolts. Apparently , he would wear out four stocks a year due to the excessive recoil of the gun. His clients would bring him Weatherby stocks .

 

[IvW]

On a related subject , since you mentioned the .404 Jeffery , would the 400 grain Monolithic solids meant for use in a .404 Jeffery be acceptable for loading in 10.75 × 68 mm cases and fired from a 10.75 × 68mm rifle ?

I doubt it as you will run into case capacity issues as the bullet will be seated too deep in the case.

 

[IvW]

BTW , you're right about the .460 Weatherby . But l do know ONE PH who used to have one : Old John Knowles . He had a Weatherby Mark V in this caliber which had a broken stock held in place by epoxy and Land Rover door bolts. Apparently , he would wear out four stocks a year due to the excessive recoil of the gun. His clients would bring him Weatherby stocks .

He is lucky to have survived that long....imagine being in a tight situation with some irate cow elephants and at your first shot the stock lets go and you cannot deal with the situation....I quess he was a good tree climber or his clients could shoot very well....

I also know a PH he used one but he downloaded it to just below 2400 which made it more acceptable recoil wise but he was still stuck with the crap platform as a DG rifle...

Remember most old time game dept officials only had access to the 458 WM as they where game dept issue and they had no choice but to make do with what they had.

 

[bruce moulds]

hoss,
be aware that the 10.75x68 only used bullets of about 350 gns.
a rifling twist suited to this bullet might well be too slow for 400 gn bullets, and even more so for 400 gn monolithics.
a little homework here might avoid the whole thing ending in tears.
bruce.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

hoss,
be aware that the 10.75x68 only used bullets of about 350 gns.
a rifling twist suited to this bullet might well be too slow for 400 gn bullets, and even more so for 400 gn monolithics.
a little homework here might avoid the whole thing ending in tears.
bruce.

You're right . I a will need a lot of research into this project , Bruce. l am recording my progress in another thread. Occasionally , l hit a dead end here and there. I guess l will stick with the old pattern 347 grain woodleigh full metal jacket rounds .

 

[bruce moulds]

hoss,
the twist for the long bullet would be ok for the short bullet, but not vice versa.
bruce.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

hoss,
the twist for the long bullet would be ok for the short bullet, but not vice versa.
bruce.

What about a 347 grain Monolithic ?

 

[Daga Boy]

Re Hoss Delgado's comments (and others of similar content), the truth is that the .458WM got a bad rep because of poor performance of factory ammo in the early days. In fact performance was so poor that it was sometimes below that of black powder loads and velocities were sometimes so low that bullets would nit even penetrate a buffalo shoulder - let alone an elephant head. This was caused by a combination of factors which included over-compression of propellants and consequent clumping. (The history is covered well in Pierre V D Walt's excellent book of African DG cartridges, which is an excellent read and investment for anyone interested in this kind of thing).
Modern loads (which use more sophisticated propellants) replicate the performance of the .450 Nitro , which was the original design objective.
In my book its a good close range/defence weapon but not a good "go to" as velocities are on the low side and trajectories are not great. Like the .450 Nitro its basically a 50m weapon - in my book anyway. It is also not great on a "going away" shot as the velocity is not high enough (given the calibre) to get the degree of penetration required.
Like IvW I have also never met anyone who either uses or recommends a .460 Weatherby. All else aside, the platform (rifle) has to be very heavy and cumbersome just in order to make the recoil manageable (after a fashion). I once met chap who had used one - he was trying to sell it as he found it unmanageable. To an extent this applies to all of the larger .458 cartridges, with the possible exception of the Lott - i.e. they are not for the fainthearted and it takes practice to be able to use them effectively. They also need to be of good weight (read "heavy") in order to tame the recoil.
I also agree with IvW re the need for this class of weapon by a client hunter. The reality is that a decent large medium/transition bore cartridge (like one of the .375's) is adequate for all "first shot" applications provided one observes the basics re range, angle and bullet placement; but if the need for larger calibre is perceived then either a .416 (there are currently several .416 cartridges) or .404 will do the job very nicely. As these are all roughly 5000ft/lb weapons, the recoil is of the same order as that of the .458WM but they all shoot much flatter than a .458 and they also penetrate very well. To put things in perspective, a 400grn .416 "solid" fired at around 2300fps can penetrate a buffalo bull from rump to dewlap. No-one needs more performance than that!

 

[bruce moulds]

I have read that early factory loads could be down around 1900 fps with a 500/510 gn bullet.
from personal experience, black powder will give similar wt bullets about 1300 fps in that case capacity, and that is with good swiss powder.
it will give 300 gn bullets more speed, but they are for smaller thin skinned game only.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

What about a 347 grain Monolithic ?

I don't know, without knowing the length of the bullet and the twist.
they might be ok if the twist has a bit to spare.
this is the danger with monolithics.
for the same weight they are longer.
the thing we tend to forget is how stable are they in flesh and bone?
the increased pressure that comes on the nose in penetration as opposed to in the air increases the overturning moment, thus the potential for tumbling rather than staying nose first and going straight.
1:18, or even 1:20 will keep 500 gn 458s stable in flight, but they put much faster twists in 45 cal dangerous game rifles for this reason.
bruce.

 

[IvW]

Hoss, just build a 404 Jeff on a ZKK602 action and you will have the best of both worlds. You would have the ultimate 'HOGGZILLA" killer which you could down load if you so wanted yet you could still use it on elephant...

The 10.75x68 will well be a hog gun...

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I don't know, without knowing the length of the bullet and the twist.
they might be ok if the twist has a bit to spare.
this is the danger with monolithics.
for the same weight they are longer.
the thing we tend to forget is how stable are they in flesh and bone?
the increased pressure that comes on the nose in penetration as opposed to in the air increases the overturning moment, thus the potential for tumbling rather than staying nose first and going straight.
1:18, or even 1:20 will keep 500 gn 458s stable in flight, but they put much faster twists in 45 cal dangerous game rifles for this reason.
bruce.

Thanks for warning me in time , Bruce. I am getting hesitant about this project in that case. I envisioned a 10.75 × 68mm rifle on a BRNO Zkk600 action with a 10.75 × 68 mm barrel ordered from Safari Outdoors ( thanks to IvW ) . I wanted it to fire 400 or at least 347 grain monolithic solids. I was very hesitant about using Woodleigh FMJ bullets , because according to the Staff at Woodleigh , their bullets are meant to mirror the original 10.75 × 68 mm loads exactly ( which were dismal on even cheetahs , let alone buffalo or elephant ) . I thought a 347 grain monolithic bullet from this caliber would finally make it a reliable cartridge for big non dangerous game. What l failed to understand ( before you guys clarified it ) was that using a monolithic solid in this caliber brings up new problems on it's own. I guess l will stick to the bullets the caliber was originally designed to shoot ; .423 caliber Woodleigh Full metal Jacket Round nose.
In this case , l will limit it's applications as a feral hog gun , rather than something l would take to Africa

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Hoss, just build a 404 Jeff on a ZKK602 action and you will have the best of both worlds. You would have the ultimate 'HOGGZILLA" killer which you could down load if you so wanted yet you could still use it on elephant...

The 10.75x68 will well be a hog gun...

That's actually a very sensible idea IvW. The way l see it now , is that there are some huge problems in my project :
1) There's no guarantee that a 10.75 × 68 mm can be chambered to work in a ZKK 600 action. It's untrodden ground as no one has done it before.
2) The Gun and it's caliber became obsolete DECADES before monolithic bullets even got invented. Hence even if l get a new barrel from Safari Outdoors , it will replicate the twist of the 1930s era 10.75 × 68 mm Mauser rifle ( naturally , as they are the only rifles of this caliber ever built ). This would make it unsuitable for the monolithic solids in 400 grain and 347 grain weight.
3) The only suitable bullets for this caliber would be Woodleigh 347 gr FMJ round noses , which would mean that the power of the gun is virtually the same as it was back in the '30s. Ergo , not only would it be useless for African beasts , but for American Grizzlies too. I would be limited in it's applications and , even though l love shooting hogs , it's kinda unwise to have a gun which good ONLY for that.
4) A minor disadvantage on the broader scheme of things but my gunsmith says that at most he can make 3 cartridges fit the Magazine , which is a little on the lesser side for this caliber , considering the original Mausers had a 6 round capacity.
I will contact Safari Outdoor and change my order from a 10.75mm barrel to a .404 Jeffery or better yet, a .425 Westley Richards. Who knows , that might even end up being my Buffalo rifle for 2020's Safari

 

[Dirtdart]

If anyone with a .458 Win and a chronograph really wants to know about original .458 velocity just for the hell of it.

Send me a PM and I will make you a deal on some ammo.

 

[bruce moulds]

hoss,
if Woodleigh makes a 347ish gn softpoint, that would be a deadly pig killer.
but as you say, very specialized.
would your brno action take 280 Remington.
this is a wonderfully balanced round that will also kill pigs reliably, as well as plains game, while shooting flat.
if it is a 600 action it should take the 280, and/or the 338/06 with little pain.
when you think about it, the 375 will do all that the 10.75x64 will do and more, with component availability.
bruce.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

hoss,
if Woodleigh makes a 347ish gn softpoint, that would be a deadly pig killer.
but as you say, very specialized.
would your brno action take 280 Remington.
this is a wonderfully balanced round that will also kill pigs reliably, as well as plains game, while shooting flat.
if it is a 600 action it should take the 280, and/or the 338/06 with little pain.
when you think about it, the 375 will do all that the 10.75x64 will do and more, with component availability.
bruce.

Bruce , it used to be for a .270 Winchester originally

 

[bruce moulds]

well then one would assume 280, 30/06. and 338/06 would be pretty trouble free.
my 1st 270 was a brno 600.
bruce.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

well then one would assume 280, 30/06. and 338/06 would be pretty trouble free.
my 1st 270 was a brno 600.
bruce.

Now that l think about it , 10.75 × 68 mm likely wouldn't even work on a ZKK-600 action , would it ?

 

[bruce moulds]

yes it might, but at what cost, and then how well?
there are alternatives for that action that would be idiotproof, just a new barrel and go shoot.
when you think about it, the place to start is the bullet.
diameter, weight(s), construction, and velocity.
then you go to a delivery system, namely the case, design, capacity.
then you go to the action that will handle all that reliably, and the twist to stabilize the longest bullet you will shoot.
then the style and weight etc of the gun.
also availability of components, with as many choices as possible for different jobs and increased availability.
getting cases and bullets at your local gunshop, or in the mail sure makes life easier.
using these criteria, how does the 416 rem (can make cases from 375 easily in a pinch) compare to the 10.75x68?
bruce.