Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

Nhoro · Jun 16, 2020

If anyone has managed to stagger to the end of this, I finally got some results from my own rifle at the range. Standard length barrel,25 " CZ 550. I had 2 loads and used a Labradar chronograph.The temperature was around 15-18 degrees Celsius so you could expect another 50 odd fps in summer in the Zambezi valley.

480 gr Peregrine solid, 2140 fps
450 gr peregrine solid, Vihtavuori 550 -2220fps.

pferraris · Oct 8, 2020

Opening post called for factory ammo being chronographed. Remington Safari Grade 450 gr Swift A Frame shot from pre 64 Winchester chronied at 2134 fps. The box states that advertised velocity is 2150 fps. Johannesburg 23 degrees. This ammo not exactly new!

Paul

Professor Mawla · Oct 10, 2020

The 500 grain Hornady DGS factory loads achieve a velocity of 2136 feet per second , from the 25 inch Douglas Premium barrel of my .458 Winchester Magnum .

500 grain Nosler Partition factory loads through the same weapon achieve a velocity of 2091 feet per second .

C.W. Richter · Oct 10, 2020

Greetings:. Had a nice customized whitworth 24 inch barrel Mauser in 458. It was a pleasure to shoot and very accurate. I tested many factory loads and hand loads as well using 500 grain and even 450 grain bullets and every load shot between 2030 and 2090 feet per second with the exception of the shorter woodleigh bullets which could just top 2100 ft per second. Although my son did down a buffalo with it in one shot at 20 yd I was unimpressed with it at greater distance so traded up in favor of a 416 Taylor. Get the Rigby. Apples and oranges in short.

Daga Boy · Oct 12, 2020

That about sums it up. The .458WM is under capacity with 500g bullets. It performs adequately as a hard hitting close range calibre with 450g bullets , but that sort of defeats the purpose of having a large calibre weapon. For this reason you will find very few in use here. The Lott tends to be the "go to", but more serious big game hunters and those involved in culling elephant favour even more powerful cartridges like the .458 3" , .450 Rigby and .458 Sabi - all of which make more sense.

Professor Mawla · Oct 12, 2020

In many of these posts , I see the name of a gentleman named Richard Harland . Mr. Harland is possibly the greatest living hunter of the African elephant and a former game ranger . He has authored three books , including “ Ndlovu : The Art Of Hunting The African Elephant “ . The pictures above are all pages from Mr. Harland’s aforementioned book , which specifically details the .458 Winchester Magnum calibre ( It is truly fascinating that the company , Flaig’s is mentioned in the book . My .458 Winchester Magnum was also built by the same company , albeit on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action instead of a Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 action ) . As can be seen , he is a massive admirer of the .458 Winchester Magnum and own(ed ) four different rifles in this calibre . He wholeheartedly recommends it as a dangerous game calibre and lays to rest many of the rumors about this much maligned calibre .

Furthermore , I have actually corresponded with Mr. Harland on multiple occasions ( we have a couple of mutual friends ) . This includes one time where we compared the hunting of Asiatic jungle elephants with their African counterparts ( we also compared the hunting of Royal Bengal tigers with African lions in other letters ) . I have attached a copy of the letter below .

As can clearly be seen from his own writings , this gentleman is as much of an admirer of the .458 Winchester Magnum as I am . While he did own a .505 Gibbs , he considers the .458 Winchester Magnum to be his favorite calibre .

Having used the .458 Winchester Magnum on Problem Animal Control Work ever since 1976 , I feel similarly about this calibre . Rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls , Gaur , marauding Royal Bengal tigers , marauding cheetahs and marauding Asian sloth bears have all fallen to my .458 Winchester Magnum . It is also the preferred calibre of choice of two other retired African professionals , whom I frequently correspond with : My close friend , Mr . John Coleman ( of Eastern Cape ) and renowned former game ranger , Terry Irwin ( of Tanzania ) . Then , there is also the great Ron Thompson and the late Finn Aagaard . None of us deny that there was a problem with the .458 Winchester Magnum . There certainly was and we all experienced it ourselves .

The .458 Winchester Magnum might not be the most modern calibre out there . It certainly lacks the patina and the old world charm of the traditional British sporting calibres ( such as the .404 Jeffery or the .416 Rigby ) . It is certainly not the best of anything . It’s not the most powerful , it’s not the most far reasoning and it certainly is no tack driver at anything past 100 yards . If you prefer other sporting calibres , then by all means ; select something else . The choices are sufficient varied for everyone’s tastes . But with proper bullets , a careful choice in gunpowders and appropriate ( hand ) loading techniques ; the .458 Winchester Magnum is certainly more than adequate for taking any animal that walks the earth . And for many of us ( who hunt or have hunted dangerous game for a living ) , we are content with that .

colorado · Oct 12, 2020

I agree go with the 416 Rigby. A much better cartridge. You can buy factory Norma ammo with 450g Woodleigh softpoints for your 416 Rigby if you decide you want to shoot heavier bullets than 400g. If you ever decide the recoil is too feeble, you can rebarrel to 450 Rigby (a lovely round).

Daga Boy · Oct 13, 2020

Professor Mawla said:
View attachment 371714
View attachment 371717
View attachment 371715 View attachment 371716
In many of these posts , I see the name of a gentleman named Richard Harland . Mr. Harland is possibly the greatest living hunter of the African elephant and a former game ranger . He has authored three books , including “ Ndlovu : The Art Of Hunting The African Elephant “ . The pictures above are all pages from Mr. Harland’s aforementioned book , which specifically details the .458 Winchester Magnum calibre ( It is truly fascinating that the company , Flaig’s is mentioned in the book . My .458 Winchester Magnum was also built by the same company , albeit on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action instead of a Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 action ) . As can be seen , he is a massive admirer of the .458 Winchester Magnum and own(ed ) four different rifles in this calibre . He wholeheartedly recommends it as a dangerous game calibre and lays to rest many of the rumors about this much maligned calibre .

Furthermore , I have actually corresponded with Mr. Harland on multiple occasions ( we have a couple of mutual friends ) . This includes one time where we compared the hunting of Asiatic jungle elephants with their African counterparts ( we also compared the hunting of Royal Bengal tigers with African lions in other letters ) . I have attached a copy of the letter below .
View attachment 371718
View attachment 371730
View attachment 371719
View attachment 371727 View attachment 371728
As can clearly be seen from his own writings , this gentleman is as much of an admirer of the .458 Winchester Magnum as I am . While he did own a .505 Gibbs , he considers the .458 Winchester Magnum to be his favorite calibre .

Having used the .458 Winchester Magnum on Problem Animal Control Work ever since 1976 , I feel similarly about this calibre . Rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls , Gaur , marauding Royal Bengal tigers , marauding cheetahs and marauding Asian sloth bears have all fallen to my .458 Winchester Magnum . It is also the preferred calibre of choice of two other retired African professionals , whom I frequently correspond with : My close friend , Mr . John Coleman ( of Eastern Cape ) and renowned former game ranger , Terry Irwin ( of Tanzania ) . Then , there is also the great Ron Thompson and the late Finn Aagaard . None of us deny that there was a problem with the .458 Winchester Magnum . There certainly was and we all experienced it ourselves .

The .458 Winchester Magnum might not be the most modern calibre out there . It certainly lacks the patina and the old world charm of the traditional British sporting calibres ( such as the .404 Jeffery or the .416 Rigby ) . It is certainly not the best of anything . It’s not the most powerful , it’s not the most far reasoning and it certainly is no tack driver at anything past 100 yards . If you prefer other sporting calibres , then by all means ; select something else . The choices are sufficient varied for everyone’s tastes . But with proper bullets , a careful choice in gunpowders and appropriate ( hand ) loading techniques ; the .458 Winchester Magnum is certainly more than adequate for taking any animal that walks the earth . And for many of us ( who hunt or have hunted dangerous game for a living ) , we are content with that .

As appears from posts earlier in this thread, I carry a .458WM in dangerous game territory and have done for about 20 years. I was initially unimpressed with the performance, but by handloading my cartridges to slightly longer than CIP (as recommended by Pierre Van Der Walt) , I have no problem getting 2150fps with a conventional 500g bullet. With a 450g copper monometal , 2300fps. This makes the rifle fine for my application. I also have not experienced any clumping or loss of performance with these loads, even when kept for a couple of hears. As these loads are over max length, they will not fit into every .458; however I am told that the "new" Hornady factory loads achieve the same sort of velocities.
The real problem with this calibre is that it requires a long barrel in order to achieve acceptable velocities - typically around 25" . This is not ideal, especially with a long action like the CZ550 as the rifle is not "handy". (Both the Rigby and the Sabi perform well with 23" barrels, and the Sabi fits into a standard 30-06 action, making for a very handy, fast handling rifle) .

Professor Mawla · Oct 13, 2020

Daga Boy said:
As appears from posts earlier in this thread, I carry a .458WM in dangerous game territory and have done for about 20 years. I was initially unimpressed with the performance, but by handloading my cartridges to slightly longer than CIP (as recommended by Pierre Van Der Walt) , I have no problem getting 2150fps with a conventional 500g bullet. With a 450g copper monometal , 2300fps. This makes the rifle fine for my application. I also have not experienced any clumping or loss of performance with these loads, even when kept for a couple of hears. As these loads are over max length, they will not fit into every .458; however I am told that the "new" Hornady factory loads achieve the same sort of velocities.
The real problem with this calibre is that it requires a long barrel in order to achieve acceptable velocities - typically around 25" . This is not ideal, especially with a long action like the CZ550 as the rifle is not "handy". (Both the Rigby and the Sabi perform well with 23" barrels, and the Sabi fits into a standard 30-06 action, making for a very handy, fast handling rifle) .

@Daga Boy
Your analysis is largely correct . My .458 Winchester Magnum ( a custom job built on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action ) uses a 25 inch Douglas Premium barrel . John Coleman’s .458 Winchester Magnum ( a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 ) also uses a 25 inch barrel . Terry Irwin’s .458 Winchester Magnum ( a made to order Mannlicher Schoenauer ) uses a 26 inch barrel .

Our generation had no issues with the ( relatively ) longer barrels on our rifles . I have used my .458 Winchester Magnum in the Sundarban mangrove forests , which is probably one of the most densely vegetated forests in all of southeast Asia . I always carry my own rifle ( since I do not trust gun bearers to stand their ground when a marauding Royal Bengal tiger or other dangerous game animal decides to charge ) and the 25 inch barrel length never bothered me . Then , short barrels became fashionable sometime around 1978 or so . Suddenly , hunters wanted barrels as short as 22 inches or even 20 inches . These were not barrel lengths which the .458 Winchester Magnum was originally intended to be used with , when it was envisioned .

So , yes . For hunters who prefer 23 inch or 22 inch barrels ( or even shorter ) , a calibre with a slightly larger case volume may be desirable . For those of us who consider a 25 or 26 inch barrel to be no handicap , the .458 Winchester Magnum is quite an acceptable contender for dangerous game .

C.W. Richter · Oct 13, 2020

Professor Mawla said:
View attachment 371714
View attachment 371717
View attachment 371715 View attachment 371716
In many of these posts , I see the name of a gentleman named Richard Harland . Mr. Harland is possibly the greatest living hunter of the African elephant and a former game ranger . He has authored three books , including “ Ndlovu : The Art Of Hunting The African Elephant “ . The pictures above are all pages from Mr. Harland’s aforementioned book , which specifically details the .458 Winchester Magnum calibre ( It is truly fascinating that the company , Flaig’s is mentioned in the book . My .458 Winchester Magnum was also built by the same company , albeit on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action instead of a Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 action ) . As can be seen , he is a massive admirer of the .458 Winchester Magnum and own(ed ) four different rifles in this calibre . He wholeheartedly recommends it as a dangerous game calibre and lays to rest many of the rumors about this much maligned calibre .

Furthermore , I have actually corresponded with Mr. Harland on multiple occasions ( we have a couple of mutual friends ) . This includes one time where we compared the hunting of Asiatic jungle elephants with their African counterparts ( we also compared the hunting of Royal Bengal tigers with African lions in other letters ) . I have attached a copy of the letter below .
View attachment 371718
View attachment 371730
View attachment 371719
View attachment 371727 View attachment 371728
As can clearly be seen from his own writings , this gentleman is as much of an admirer of the .458 Winchester Magnum as I am . While he did own a .505 Gibbs , he considers the .458 Winchester Magnum to be his favorite calibre .

Having used the .458 Winchester Magnum on Problem Animal Control Work ever since 1976 , I feel similarly about this calibre . Rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls , Gaur , marauding Royal Bengal tigers , marauding cheetahs and marauding Asian sloth bears have all fallen to my .458 Winchester Magnum . It is also the preferred calibre of choice of two other retired African professionals , whom I frequently correspond with : My close friend , Mr . John Coleman ( of Eastern Cape ) and renowned former game ranger , Terry Irwin ( of Tanzania ) . Then , there is also the great Ron Thompson and the late Finn Aagaard . None of us deny that there was a problem with the .458 Winchester Magnum . There certainly was and we all experienced it ourselves .

The .458 Winchester Magnum might not be the most modern calibre out there . It certainly lacks the patina and the old world charm of the traditional British sporting calibres ( such as the .404 Jeffery or the .416 Rigby ) . It is certainly not the best of anything . It’s not the most powerful , it’s not the most far reasoning and it certainly is no tack driver at anything past 100 yards . If you prefer other sporting calibres , then by all means ; select something else . The choices are sufficient varied for everyone’s tastes . But with proper bullets , a careful choice in gunpowders and appropriate ( hand ) loading techniques ; the .458 Winchester Magnum is certainly more than adequate for taking any animal that walks the earth . And for many of us ( who hunt or have hunted dangerous game for a living ) , we are content with that .

The two famed gunsmiths in PA at the time were Flaigs near Pittsburgh and Jaeger near Philadelphia. Their guns can easily be distinguished by stock design. Visited the latter many times and own one of his custom m98s. Have seen quite a few flaigs guns for sale over the years. His tend to be more ornate while the Jaegers tend to be excellent shooters and more simply beautiful (higher quality better figured wood, finer checkering, judicious use of Ebony, etc.). Many of the flaigs I've seen resemble hand carved cuckoo clocks with barrels! Friends and I have Jaegers in calibers ranging from 257 to 338 and they are all excellent shooters! Although I'm sure they both made DG caliber guns I never came across anything excepting those for sale in glass cases when I was a kid.

Professor Mawla · Oct 13, 2020

C.W. Richter said:
The two famed gunsmiths in PA at the time were Flaigs near Pittsburgh and Jaeger near Philadelphia. Their guns can easily be distinguished by stock design. Visited the latter many times and own one of his custom m98s. Have seen quite a few flaigs guns for sale over the years. His tend to be more ornate while the Jaegers tend to be excellent shooters and more simply beautiful (higher quality better figured wood, finer checkering, judicious use of Ebony, etc.). Many of the flaigs I've seen resemble hand carved cuckoo clocks with barrels! Friends and I have Jaegers in calibers ranging from 257 to 338 and they are all excellent shooters! Although I'm sure they both made DG caliber guns I never came across anything excepting those for sale in glass cases when I was a kid.

@C.W. Richter
By “ Jaeger Rifles “ do you mean “ Paul Jaeger “ ? A gentleman on AH forums by the name of @Von S. also had a .458 Winchester Magnum built by “ Jaeger Rifles “ . It was built on a Remington Springfield Model 1903A3 action with an aftermarket hinged floor plate .

Here is my .458 Winchester Magnum .

Custom built by Flaig’s ( in Millvale , Pennsylvania ) on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action with a 25 inch Douglas Premium barrel and a contoured French walnut stock . Not too immodest , I hope ?

C.W. Richter · Oct 13, 2020

Professor Mawla said:
@C.W. Richter
By “ Jaeger Rifles “ do you mean “ Paul Jaeger “ ? A gentleman on AH forums by the name of @Von S. also had a .458 Winchester Magnum built by “ Jaeger Rifles “ . It was built on a Remington Springfield Model 1903A3 action with an aftermarket hinged floor plate .

Here is my .458 Winchester Magnum
Custom built by Flaig’s ( in Millvale , Pennsylvania ) on a Winchester Enfield Model 1917 action with a 25 inch Douglas Premium barrel and a contoured French walnut stock . Not too immodest , I hope ? Yes-The Paul Jaeger (you can tell the Flaig's stock by the decor and the pistol grip-they nearly all looked like that.)

Nhoro · Oct 20, 2020

Daga Boy said:
As appears from posts earlier in this thread, I carry a .458WM in dangerous game territory and have done for about 20 years. I was initially unimpressed with the performance, but by handloading my cartridges to slightly longer than CIP (as recommended by Pierre Van Der Walt) , I have no problem getting 2150fps with a conventional 500g bullet. With a 450g copper monometal , 2300fps. This makes the rifle fine for my application. I also have not experienced any clumping or loss of performance with these loads, even when kept for a couple of hears. As these loads are over max length, they will not fit into every .458; however I am told that the "new" Hornady factory loads achieve the same sort of velocities.
The real problem with this calibre is that it requires a long barrel in order to achieve acceptable velocities - typically around 25" . This is not ideal, especially with a long action like the CZ550 as the rifle is not "handy". (Both the Rigby and the Sabi perform well with 23" barrels, and the Sabi fits into a standard 30-06 action, making for a very handy, fast handling rifle) .

Barrel length is a pretty interesting discussion and as I started the thread, I don't feel guilty starting a rabbit hole ! My rifle barrel is full factory length 25 " CZ barrel. The rifle was a bit light so I added weight to the butt with some empty cases filled with lead. It also balanced the rifle. I think that shortening the barrel has very little effect on how fast you can move it but everything to do with balance. A rear weighted rifle feels quick on to the target because the balance point is back towards the stock. A muzzle heavy rifle feels slow because of a forward balance point however it is usually more accurate offhand, better for moving shots and has less muzzle lift. Also, moving the balance point back helped when carrying the rifle in my hands. It now balances on the magazine plate and hangs slightly muzzle down-it used to balance under the front bridge/chamber area and it was too big/awkward to get my hand around. An extra 1/2 pound of weight and better balance has made recoil much more pleasant as well. Hot Lott(515gr @2339) rounds are easier to deal with than my win mag rounds (480 gr@2140)

So IMHO it is rifle balance that affects whether a rifle feels quick in the hands.

Pondoro · Oct 20, 2020

The belief that modern .458 ammo still has a short shelf life is nonsense.. I had a few boxes of Federal 500 grain solids (Woodleigh) laying around..about 25 years old at the time (made early 90s..). I checked a few before an elephant hunt, I did not have a crono but did a penetration test, ZKK 602 with 25" barrel, I stacked 2 x 8" pinewood to a 1 meter thick block and fired at it at 20 meters. The bullets went 97cm in that block and penetrated slightly better than (modern) Kynoch factory .475NE (480 grain Woodleigh solids) from my double rifle (23" barrels)..the ammunition performed well on heart/lung shots on ele later..

Regarding Hornady DGS...I have used 480 grainers in .458, compressed handloads...performed well on elephant. I supplied some Hornady factory DGS in .375H&H to a friend of mine....he has shot several ele with it and made a spectacular frontal brain shot....rifle ZKK 602, 25" barrel..

That said...I am building a .500 Jeffery on that .458 ZKK 602....I desire more fire/stopping power at the close ranges elephant is shot. .505 Gibbs is also a splendid round with low pressure..I think Norma´s ammo loaded with a 600 grain solid is excellent..

Badboymelvin · Oct 20, 2020

As some people might know, I'm a massive fan of the .458WM... always will be. I like the interesting history behind it and the way it polarises people!

But I always read threads like these with an open mind and value and take on board other people's experiences and opinions... you're never to old to learn something!

BUT, obviously I have to take on board MY OWN experiences with the .458 and they have been nothing but positive.
I have owned several .458's and my current one is a Zastava with a 24" barrel.

Old Red & White box Winchester factory ammo chronographed 2020fps from my rifle - only 20fps under the box velocity.

I have had nothing but success hand-loading for it too.
I get easy 2150fps with the Woodleigh 480gn and I am currently loading the 550gn Woodleigh for 2080fps.
I haven't had pressure problems with either load and in fact the only time I have ever had hard bolt lift was when I loaded a 500gn Woodleigh with a load that was 4 GRAINS over max! Even then I had to leave a round on the dashboard of the car in the direct sun until it was toot to touch before it would do it. But once again that was 4 GRAINS over max!

When people ask me about the .458 I always say that it has a case just big enough to propel a 480-500gn projectile at 2150fps. This is a proven formula and this is what it does - well in my experience anyway.
If you need more velocity than that (and history has proven that you really don't) than that get a different cartridge... but I don't see that as a knock against the .458.
It (well in 2020 at least) does the velocity it always promised and nothing more.
If that is a knock against the .458 well we should knock the .30-06 coz it can't give .300 Win Mag velocities - or the .300 Win Mag coz it doesn't give .300 Wby velocities and so forth...

I honestly believe that is someone was to be given a .458 right now and then told to work up a load for it, with modern powders and projectiles, they just might be surprised... and in the good way!

As always, only my opinion/ experience and I value and respect other people's if their's differs from mine.

Cheers,

Russ

Badboymelvin · Oct 20, 2020

I'll quickly add too that the first .458 I owned was a CZ550 with a hogsback stock, so making it a Lott would've been a simple job. I even got a quote from a gunsmith for the job!

I had in my mind that I wanted 2150fps with a 500gn projectile.
That, from what I had read, seemed to be a classic load for DG - not the biggest or baddest, but effective and proven... and I got that with the standard .458 so I just left it as is.

Now, if I was struggling to get that velocity or had problems with pressure - I would've Lott'd it... no worries!
But I didn't need to.
Since then, I admit I've developed a real soft-spot for the .458 - but it has earned that spot by always doing what I've wanted.

Also quickly... everyone I've spoken too - including African PH's that use the .458 (it's almost like if you own a .458 you're in a special club!) have said that going DOWN in bullet weight to the 450gn projectile has INCREASED it's effectiveness!
And that is the hand-on-heart truth.
When I mentioned on another forum that I had gone up to the 550gn projectile, an African PH (who uses a .458 and speaks glowingly of it) told me that he too had tried the 550gn - but ended up going down to the 450gn at around 2200fps.
He said it's just as effective and zips clean through elephant and buffalo while having less recoil...

It's not the first time I've heard this and it is food for thought...

Cheers,

Russ

BenKK · May 17, 2021

23” barrel, 500 grain factory bullets.

2103fps for one Federal round.
2178fps for one Hornady round.
2171fps for one Hornady round.

PaulT · May 17, 2021

Thanks for posting that Ben, long time no hear.

Thought maybe a croc had got you.

Wow, $135 for a box of Federals, when did you buy them, when you graduated from primary school ???

bruce moulds · May 17, 2021

bit disappointing in the penetration dept. ben.
i thought they should penetrate a prochrono no problems at all!
bruce.

BenKK · May 17, 2021

PaulT said:
Thanks for posting that Ben, long time no hear.

Thought maybe a croc had got you.

Wow, $135 for a box of Federals, when did you buy them, when you graduated from primary school ???

Not yet, but with all the news reports of increasing numbers and a good wet season we must be careful!

I bought them in 2018, I think. I was surprised too!

Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

Nhoro

pferraris

Professor Mawla

C.W. Richter

Daga Boy

Professor Mawla

colorado

Daga Boy

Professor Mawla

C.W. Richter

Professor Mawla

C.W. Richter

Nhoro

Pondoro

Badboymelvin

Badboymelvin

BenKK

PaulT

bruce moulds

BenKK

Members online

Forum statistics

Proudly sponsored by

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Share this page