Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

[Nhoro]

Hi All, Thanks for all your input and opinions. I had hoped to get some chrono results and some measurable facts. For those who own a 458 win mag and reload, I did find some interesting facts. Because the chambers of the 458 lott and win mag are different shapes, it does appear that many reloaders are seating bullets further out of the case to equal or possibly even exceed the case capacity of the Lott. This technique is common practice with benchrest shooters.You can check the SAAMI specifications and google for more details but it is worth knowing if you do have a 458 and want to avoid compressed handloads. As for the factory loads, it appears that no-one has put them over a chrono for about 20 yrs so if you own a chrono and a 458 please feel free to give it a go and post here !

 

[Pheroze]

the 458 (obviously not introduced in that order). All are short magnums made to work in a standard length action.

Hmmmm....me thinks Mr Jeffery's efforts in building DG calibers in a standard action produced better cartridges But, perhaps Winchester did not know how he achieved success.

 

[BenKK]

A few posts back I read a quote from Don Heath saying the .500NE struggles on big elephant bulls. That surprised me. I have never hunted elephant but have hunted dozens of bull buffalo with the .500NE. I’m interested to hear from folks who know both the cartridge and elephant.

 

[hntr58]

I get an honest 2,115 out of hand loads of 500gr Swift bullets. Remington custom shop model 700. Can't say I'm impressed with the gun itself. Have had it back to the custom shop to fix problems I've had with it with it from new.

 

[lwaters]

I have a chronograph and it will truly show you that the ammo people do not test their loads with the same rifles I use. I doubt if many of them big double rifles get much over 2000fps.

 

[IvW]

Sorry but I beg to differ-Don Heath aka Gunyana quoted from African Hunter and referring to Zimbabwe/Rhodesia culling operations- "For our elephant culling programmes we used .30-06 Springfield with 220gr A Square monolithic solids or Soviet armour piercing 7.62x 54R ammo. 30,000 elephants in a decade says this combination works. At the same time, our .500NE jesse guns proved they were not up to big bulls. From the short 18" barrels they just didn’t drive a .570gr bullet fast enough. Come to think of it, even from a 24" barrel they are marginal and require a good bullet to be considered satisfactory. For a client on an elephant hunt, a .40 calibre rifle is perfect and a .375 perfectly adequate assuming good bullets. "

Now I know that technically most of the culling were female and juvenile animals but they primarily used FN auto rifles for the bulk of killing so technically the 7.62 has probably killed more elephants than any other calibre and the AK 47 is sadly probably second.

Yes the 30-06 with 220 gr as well as the FN(7.62x51) was used on elephant and yes mainly on cows and calves and in many instances the elephants where darted and lying on the ground when shot.(Not only in Zim but also in the Kruger park).

His advice about .40 caliber and .375 H&H are also spot on.

As for the 7.62 x 54R well either a typo or whoever wrote that in the book is confused.

The 7.62 x 54R is a rimmed cartridge and was used in the Russian Draganov sniper rifles as well as the PKM machine gun and not in the FN!

The FN or R1 used a 7.62x51 or "aka" 308 cartridge.

The 404 Jeff was the standard issue for most game departments in most of Africa, not only Zimbabwe.

 

[BenKK]

IvW, what do you think of the comments above re: .500NE?

 

[IvW]

IvW, what do you think of the comments above re: .500NE?

I think it should be taken with a whole lot of salt.

I never heard of a 500 NE with a 18" set of barrels. So maybe they had one of these(that was cut down to 18") and yes then the performance as well as regulation would go for a ball of s....

They may well have tried it out and with 18" barrels and probably some ancient Kynoch ammo lying around and yes sure in that case it will not perform on big bulls in the thick jesse. To then generalise and say a 500 NE experiences penetration issues is ridiculous.

There may have been a few doubles around in the game departments but I can assure you that 18" 500 NE doubles where not standard issue to game department personnel. Tsuro, Richard Harlands tracker carried and used a 450 NE game department double that had it's stock butchered.

We need to bear in mind that these old time hunters who culled thousands of elephant used what they had available and what they were issued. A double makes a poor culling rifle when you are dealing with elephant herds and need to drop the whole herd in the shortest possible time.

A big double used by a professional hunter guiding clients and often hunting them in thick bush makes a whole lot of sense and may just be the best tool for the job.

The 500 NE in normal barrel lengths 24-26" loaded with a proper solid of 570 gr is devastatingly effective on elephant. It outperforms all other NE calibers up to and including the 470 NE in the penetration/knockdown department. (Not that any of the other doubles are not suitable).

Furthermore when compared to the .577, 600, 700 class well they just recoil too much and your recovery time for the second shot takes too long and they are heavy to carry all day. Some penetration tests I have seen shows that the 500 NE out penetrates these three big boys as well.

If I ever switch to a double it will be to a 500 NE for the big stuff and a 450/400 for the cat's, until such time I will stick to my 500 Jeff for the big stuff and my 9.3x74R/12ga combo and 12ga/12ga 24 inch barreled sxs(aka "poormans double") with brenneke slugs for leopard.

 

[BenKK]

Thank you.

 

[Nhoro]

Hi All, The only reference I have found to actual chrono measurements of 458 win mag. Aparently it makes 2140 fps with 24 " barrel and Hornady DGS ammo.

 

[Nhoro]

I think it should be taken with a whole lot of salt.

I never heard of a 500 NE with a 18" set of barrels. So maybe they had one of these(that was cut down to 18") and yes then the performance as well as regulation would go for a ball of s....

They may well have tried it out and with 18" barrels and probably some ancient Kynoch ammo lying around and yes sure in that case it will not perform on big bulls in the thick jesse. To then generalise and say a 500 NE experiences penetration issues is ridiculous.

There may have been a few doubles around in the game departments but I can assure you that 18" 500 NE doubles where not standard issue to game department personnel. Tsuro, Richard Harlands tracker carried and used a 450 NE game department double that had it's stock butchered.

We need to bear in mind that these old time hunters who culled thousands of elephant used what they had available and what they were issued. A double makes a poor culling rifle when you are dealing with elephant herds and need to drop the whole herd in the shortest possible time.

A big double used by a professional hunter guiding clients and often hunting them in thick bush makes a whole lot of sense and may just be the best tool for the job.

The 500 NE in normal barrel lengths 24-26" loaded with a proper solid of 570 gr is devastatingly effective on elephant. It outperforms all other NE calibers up to and including the 470 NE in the penetration/knockdown department. (Not that any of the other doubles are not suitable).

Furthermore when compared to the .577, 600, 700 class well they just recoil too much and your recovery time for the second shot takes too long and they are heavy to carry all day. Some penetration tests I have seen shows that the 500 NE out penetrates these three big boys as well.

If I ever switch to a double it will be to a 500 NE for the big stuff and a 450/400 for the cat's, until such time I will stick to my 500 Jeff for the big stuff and my 9.3x74R/12ga combo and 12ga/12ga 24 inch barreled sxs(aka "poormans double") with brenneke slugs for leopard.

I would also add that Kynoch ceased production in the 1960's of the NE cartridges I think. I dont know if any other manufacturers picked up that baton during the 70's and 80's when culling was happening. Those 500 NE guns were probably 30 years old and the ammo 10 to 20 years old. Also, my internet research suggests that construction of solids was not up to snuff in this time period, for all calibres. The 458 saga is well documented with claims that undersize bullets were glued into cartridges ! Who knows what happened in the bush in 80's Zim.

 

[Felipe]

Cambaco I y II . Pardal en Mozambique. 458 w = THE PERFECT SHOT

 

[Simon1111]

Cambaco I y II . Pardal en Mozambique. 458 w = THE PERFECT SHOT

I have no idea what your referring to other than possibly art Alphins manual.
I have that.
The load data is questionable.
If you follow the direction of the information I suggested reading, you will find testing on a large scale with actual truthful accurate results.

Always refer when developing load data, accurate references and testing by experienced developers.

The casual statements made by a great many are too dangerous to rely upon.

 

[Simon1111]

I realize that in some instances, in some areas,
There is a difficulty in obtaining proper components such as powders to reach desired velocities in some cartridges.
But to those who can, it has been long known that the .458 can EASILY achieve even in barrels as short as 22”, 2150 FPS with 500 grain projectiles at moderate pressure.
This is a fact.

I have been reading where the new .416 Ruger can barely achieve 2200 FPS with 400 grain bullets.

It is a fact that a 400 grain bullet can attain 2350-2400 FPS out of a 20” Barrel at moderate pressures.

I know. I have 2 of them.

I have a strong feeling that many are too attached in their britophile ideas to look at facts and decry their beloved British rounds.

An example.
2 Ruger Alaskans 20” barrels.
Hornady factory 400 grain DGS solids.
Both rifles 10 rounds each over a labradar.
Average velocity for both rifles in 86 deg. Temp.
2354 FPS.

So, heat over there is different from heat over on the other side of the world?
Average velocity immediately drops to give an advantage to the .416 Rigby as it crosses an ocean?

 

[Felipe]

Cambaco, caça grossa em Moçambique y Cambaco II, memorias dum caçador africano.

 

[Felipe]

http://faunabraviademocambique.blogspot.com/2013/01/122-jose-pardal-minha-homenagem.html

 

[Ray B]

It's too bad that no one has the information for which the thread was originally requesting. It would be interesting to see how current production factory 458 WM 500gr bullets fired in standard production rifles performed over a chronograph, both at 70 degrees F & about 110 degrees F; and compare those results to what was obtained back in the day factory and also what can be done with presently available handloading components. Enough of the comparison of this and that; just answer the question.

 

[IvW]

Hi All, Thanks for all your input and opinions. I had hoped to get some chrono results and some measurable facts. For those who own a 458 win mag and reload, I did find some interesting facts. Because the chambers of the 458 lott and win mag are different shapes, it does appear that many reloaders are seating bullets further out of the case to equal or possibly even exceed the case capacity of the Lott. This technique is common practice with benchrest shooters.You can check the SAAMI specifications and google for more details but it is worth knowing if you do have a 458 and want to avoid compressed handloads. As for the factory loads, it appears that no-one has put them over a chrono for about 20 yrs so if you own a chrono and a 458 please feel free to give it a go and post here !

Seating bullets further forward to try and increase case capacity in a DG rifle poses its own set of challenges. Unless the bullets have additional crimping grooves this will be another disaster waiting to happen. If you try and crimp the bullets without a crimping groves the ones lower down in the magazine may get forced back into the case which in turn would cause pressures to increase dangerously and could end up in a deadly firing for the shooter.

Lot's of crony info on the net.

As for the 458 WM don't try and get it to do what it cannot do safely. If it does not achieve what you want rechamber to something that can or sell and buy something else.

 

[meigsbucks]

I used to have a Ruger 77 in .458 Win. I looked at my records and found that the Remington SP load was giving 1917 out of a 24" barrel. I don't think Remington produces this round any more. Handloading 500gr Hornadys I was able to get to the 2030 mark.

 

[Daga Boy]

This is an intersting thread and as usual IVW knows what he is talking about. However let's not go way off trackor compare apples with oranges.
Sure the 500 Jeffrey is a much better calibre than the 458 wm , and sure any 416 shoots flatter and will out-penetrate any. 458.
However the Q had to do with .458 factory ammo. Current Hornady supetformance ammo is listed as doing 2150 from a 24" barrel. I am told this is genuine
I am planning to do a short article/video on loading for and shooting with the 458wm. I think the results will interest a few people.