Wanting .458 win mag chronograph results of factory

[IvW]

I have chrono some old win factory loads (old stock) and consistently reads around 2000 fps I have been working up loads using H335 powder and 500gr and get an honest 2160 fps with a deviation of 5-10 fps these are not compressed loads and I practice in summer months 90+ degree weather and never had problems with pressure/extraction. I never been to Africa. Only trying to simulate conditions. I have been shooting this load for a while. My question is, the extraction problem s that happened are they due to the older powders? Because i seem to not have a problem with it . Thank you

What rifle are you using and what bullets are you using?

That is the one issue with factory ammo they never exceed 2000 fps and in most cases less.

 

[Don458]

What rifle are you using and what bullets are you using?

That is the one issue with factory ammo they never exceed 2000 fps and in most cases less.

Rifle is a Whitworth Express Loads i made using Hornady interloc round nose / and DGS both 500 gr . Also 450 barnes solids that chrono at 2250 fps using Rl 7.

 

[Nhoro]

I have checked with some people in Zim, well respected in the field. One is the organiser/examiner for the PH shooting exam. His comments are as follows:

1.Reloads with South African powders are reliable for one year only because they are slightly compressed loads.

2. American factory ammo is no problem

He leant towards the 416 Rigby.

 

[Nhoro]

Another Pro Guide friend of mine currently uses a 458 Ackley and has said to me that he is selling it and buying a 458 win mag. He said that the cheaper rounds allow more practice and therefore better shot placement. He has harvested several elephants as part of his licence and is entirely happy with the 458 win mag and american made factory ammo. Here in Zim, 458 rounds are about $12 USD and 416 rounds are about $30 USD.

 

[IvW]

2. American factory ammo is no problem

He leant towards the 416 Rigby.

Only problem American ammo battles to make 2000 fps.

Clever man for leaning towards the 416 Rigby when compared to the 458 WM

 

[IvW]

Another Pro Guide friend of mine currently uses a 458 Ackley and has said to me that he is selling it and buying a 458 win mag. He said that the cheaper rounds allow more practice and therefore better shot placement. He has harvested several elephants as part of his licence and is entirely happy with the 458 win mag and american made factory ammo. Here in Zim, 458 rounds are about $12 USD and 416 rounds are about $30 USD.

After several elephants with 458 Ackley(far superior to a 458 WM) he scales down to a inferior cartridge based on the difference of 90 US cents???

Personally I think this will be a decision he will soon regret.

 

[Nhoro]

After several elephants with 458 Ackley(far superior to a 458 WM) he scales down to a inferior cartridge based on the difference of 90 US cents???

Personally I think this will be a decision he will soon regret.

Just to clarify,the difference is $18 PER ROUND not 90 c. He shot the elephants with a win mag, now has an ackley but is going back to the win mag.

 

[HWL]

End of the 50's, Steyr offered their Mannlicher-Schönauer MC in .458 Win-Mag, they refused to accept orders with barrels shorter than 65 cm/25.6 ".
They said, the cartridge never will perform to factory ballistics with shorter barrels!
They said this, because they tested it!
This was before 60 years.... and still is the truth.
Even today, with modern powders and a 26 " barrel, you can have a lot of fun with a .458 Win-Mag.
A .458 Win-Mag in a short barrel is like a Ferrari on bicycle wheels...

HWL

 

[Nhoro]

I have also found claims that Hornday DGS over a chrono with a 24 " barrel made the published 2140 fps. Can anyone corroborate that ?

 

[IvW]

I have also found claims that Hornday DGS over a chrono with a 24 " barrel made the published 2140 fps. Can anyone corroborate that ?

And how well does that combination pan out for elephant hunting?
Very bad choice of bullet for DG hunting especially elephant.

Now we have almost the speed but not the bullet to do the job with.
Just get a 458 caliber that can produce 2300 fps with a premium grade bullet and have satisfaction. I never could understand that a few dollars per round takes preference to the safety of a PH and his clients when hunting DG. Shoot the best that is available.

If 2100 is the desired speed rather get a double in a classic NE caliber.

In 1956 Winchester introduced a rifle called the “African” for their new .458 Winchester Magnum. Their aim was the increasing number of sport hunters from the US who went on safari in Africa after big game. They wisely tried to duplicate the performance of the old and well-tried .450 Nitro Express by maintaining the .458” bullet diameter and aiming for a muzzle velocity of the same 2150 fps that made the .450 NE so successful. The designers at Winchester’s, however, utilized the fact that a bolt action can withstand a much higher working pressure than a double rifle.

However, time would show that the designers might had been better off by making a slightly larger case capacity as the muzzle velocity of many factory loaded cartridges in .458 Win. Mag. only was slightly over 1900 fps.

Loads at even 2050 fps and about 4000 ft lbs in 458 caliber just does not cut the bacon. The 458 WM's case is just too small.

On the DG caliber and bullet topic, we all have preferences and dislikes. Never will we all agree and one size will not fit all.

Confidence in one's chosen rifle, caliber and bullet preferences only comes from extensive use in the field under practical conditions and it is a very important factor when hunting DG. If you do not have 110% confidence in your rifle, cartridge and bullet selection and their performance on DG, it is a accident waiting to happen.

For my use I prefer not to use marginal cartridges or bullets and for me the 458 WM is on the wrong side of this margin, so to for the ammo mentioned.

 

[CTDolan]

And how well does that combination pan out for elephant hunting?
Very bad choice of bullet for DG hunting especially elephant.

Now we have almost the speed but not the bullet to do the job with.
Just get a 458 caliber that can produce 2300 fps with a premium grade bullet and have satisfaction. I never could understand that a few dollars per round takes preference to the safety of a PH and his clients when hunting DG. Shoot the best that is available.

If 2100 is the desired speed rather get a double in a classic NE caliber.

In 1956 Winchester introduced a rifle called the “African” for their new .458 Winchester Magnum. Their aim was the increasing number of sport hunters from the US who went on safari in Africa after big game. They wisely tried to duplicate the performance of the old and well-tried .450 Nitro Express by maintaining the .458” bullet diameter and aiming for a muzzle velocity of the same 2150 fps that made the .450 NE so successful. The designers at Winchester’s, however, utilized the fact that a bolt action can withstand a much higher working pressure than a double rifle.

However, time would show that the designers might had been better off by making a slightly larger case capacity as the muzzle velocity of many factory loaded cartridges in .458 Win. Mag. only was slightly over 1900 fps.

Loads at even 2050 fps and about 4000 ft lbs in 458 caliber just does not cut the bacon. The 458 WM's case is just too small.

On the DG caliber and bullet topic, we all have preferences and dislikes. Never will we all agree and one size will not fit all.

Confidence in one's chosen rifle, caliber and bullet preferences only comes from extensive use in the field under practical conditions and it is a very important factor when hunting DG. If you do not have 110% confidence in your rifle, cartridge and bullet selection and their performance on DG, it is a accident waiting to happen.

For my use I prefer not to use marginal cartridges or bullets and for me the 458 WM is on the wrong side of this margin, so to for the ammo mentioned.

When Winchester developed the 458 Win Mag, short magnums were all the rage (sound familiar???). They had the 264, the 300, the 338 and the 458 (obviously not introduced in that order). All are short magnums made to work in a standard length action. Winchester did not have to do this for their M70 as it could handle the length of a proper magnum (such as the 375 H&H), but they went with what was in vogue, closed their eyes, crossed their fingers and hoped for the best. And we all know how that went.

Today I do not think it is such an issue. For sure, if the option exists, you'd be much better served with the Lott (anything between the 458 Lott and 450 Rigby, actually), but if the 458 Win Mag is all that is available, or if it is desired for other compelling reasons, it'll serve a person well. Finn Aagaard used one for years and, as best I am aware, had no complaints.

However, if asked to chose between a 416 Rigby and a 458 Win Mag (as per an early comment from the one who originated the post), I'd take the Rigby, no two ways about it.

 

[Foxi]

@lvW
you certainly know what you're writing about.
Yet i'd like to know how many elephants you lost with well-placed shots from the.458..........
I asked today a well-known, a former ranger from the kruger park, how they are armed.
"Mostly by bike, mostly they have the R1 with .308.
For aggressive buffalo and elephants use the .375 H+H, or the .458 Win".
I don't think most of the rangers there have a clue about the ballistics. Practical experience, however, probably more than all of us put together.
And I don't want to praise the .458 for DG in the sky, but it doesn't deserve that bashing. I don't hear anything bad around me, except you can't shoot far with it.

Kruger Park control (picture woodleigh)

For the .416 fraction amongst you :
Yesterday I got that pics from a Ph in Zimbabwe (Tukutela Safaris).

A lot of Boeuf Stroganoff
A cow for the kitchen,shot with his .416 Rigby,400 gn Barnes TSX.
His beloved standard for everything.
Except:

Foxi

 

[1dirthawker]

Loads at even 2050 fps and about 4000 ft lbs in 458 caliber just does not cut the bacon. The 458 WM's case is just too small.

IVW,

i appreciate your opinions regarding almost everything you have written, that i have read. gotta point out that a 500 gr 458 bullet going 2050 fps turns out about 4,670 ft lbs.

although it might not be a great ele cartridge, i'd be surprised if it would bounce off either.

i agree that more gun is not a bad idea regarding ele, just seems like lots of them have died from a 458 win. i would think if close (and i believe one should be) and good bullets, it would do a fine job. you, however, would know better than i.

 

[IvW]

IVW,

i appreciate your opinions regarding almost everything you have written, that i have read. gotta point out that a 500 gr 458 bullet going 2050 fps turns out about 4,670 ft lbs.

although it might not be a great ele cartridge, i'd be surprised if it would bounce off either.

i agree that more gun is not a bad idea regarding ele, just seems like lots of them have died from a 458 win. i would think if close (and i believe one should be) and good bullets, it would do a fine job. you, however, would know better than i.

@1dirthawker, I was typing a bit fast. I remember from factory rounds we chronographed that some only achieved 1900-1950 fps which puts them in the 4000 ft lbs range.

Sure it aint going to bounce off and with current new poders may be better than it use to be, but for me is still a poor choice for elephant and certainly for back-up.

 

[IvW]

@lvW
you certainly know what you're writing about.
Yet i'd like to know how many elephants you lost with well-placed shots from the.458..........
I asked today a well-known, a former ranger from the kruger park, how they are armed.
"Mostly by bike, mostly they have the R1 with .308.
For aggressive buffalo and elephants use the .375 H+H, or the .458 Win".
I don't think most of the rangers there have a clue about the ballistics. Practical experience, however, probably more than all of us put together.
And I don't want to praise the .458 for DG in the sky, but it doesn't deserve that bashing. I don't hear anything bad around me, except you can't shoot far with it.
View attachment 224521
Kruger Park control (picture woodleigh)

For the .416 fraction amongst you :
Yesterday I got that pics from a Ph in Zimbabwe (Tukutela Safaris).
View attachment 224522
A lot of Boeuf Stroganoff
A cow for the kitchen,shot with his .416 Rigby,400 gn Barnes TSX.
His beloved standard for everything.
Except:
View attachment 224523

Foxi

Hi @Foxi

I have never lost an elephant with well placed shots from a 458 Win as I do not use a 458 Win for back-up work, I only use my 500 Jeff with 570 gr bullets on elephants.

I have however experienced issues with clients using a 458 WM.

Yes well placed shots work. You do not always have that privilege though, especially in back-up situations. I would never use the 458 WM for back-up work. If for some reason my 500 Jeff could not be used I would use my 375 H&H with 340 gr Rhino solids as it out penetrates the 458 WM by a long margin.

As for game rangers, yes they have no choice, they work for a government department and they have to use what they are issued with, period. Which at the moment is 375 H&H and 458 WM for animal control/culling work. Remember that in all of Africa, the 404 Jeff has killed more DG than any other caliber. The reason? That was the rifle and cartridge that was issued to the game departments at that time.

Also remember that currently game rangers are more at risk from poachers than from any wild animals including elephant. When they are on anti poaching control, they use FN R1 in caliber 7.62x51(.308) or South African made R4 in caliber 5.56x45(.223). Poachers are armed with full automatic rifles in many cases the old AK47, a .458 or 375 is hardly appropriate for that task.

This is the difference, a recreational hunter has a choice that these guy's do not have.

My opinion is that for such a hunter, there are much better choices than the 458WM.

By the way the game ranger on the bicycle is a very old photo and the rifle he has over his shoulder is a old .303 SMLE and not a FN R1.

Yes agreed the 416 Rigby is far superior and a good choice, great caliber.

Let me just clear up my opinion.

There are many better choices for a visiting hunter to use especially for elephant. The same goes for any backup work on elephant.

Rather choose a caliber that will get the job done every time from any angle than a caliber that can only do so when the "perfect shot" is presented.

Obviously there are 458 WM supporters and users and they can use what the wish, however for me it does not cut the bacon and therefore I do not recommend or use it.

 

[BenKK]

G’day IvW,

I read your comments with interest and respect, even though I am fond of my old .458WM (which unfortunately I sold to pay African trophy bills) and I love traditional archery! I know lots about Australian buffalo, but not much about elephants - even though I once got a thorough fright from a couple in the Okavango. Anyway, in the .458WM debate, as stated, there are folks like yourself and Mr Sanchez-Arino on the one side, and Mr Harland and - who was that Greg fellow, who wrote that little red book? - on the other side. When I used .458WM on buffalo, I wanted to experience the effects of a moderately loaded 500 grains (softs and solids). I found it effective but not as effective as the .416 Rigby (or the various big fifties). I never used the Woodleigh 480 grain projectiles. I was wondering what your thoughts are on the effectiveness of the .458WM loaded with 480 grain Woodleigh solids on elephant?

Cheers,

Ben

 

[IvW]

G’day IvW,

I read your comments with interest and respect, even though I am fond of my old .458WM (which unfortunately I sold to pay African trophy bills) and I love traditional archery! I know lots about Australian buffalo, but not much about elephants - even though I once got a thorough fright from a couple in the Okavango. Anyway, in the .458WM debate, as stated, there are folks like yourself and Mr Sanchez-Arino on the one side, and Mr Harland and - who was that Greg fellow, who wrote that little red book? - on the other side. When I used .458WM on buffalo, I wanted to experience the effects of a moderately loaded 500 grains (softs and solids). I found it effective but not as effective as the .416 Rigby (or the various big fifties). I never used the Woodleigh 480 grain projectiles. I was wondering what your thoughts are on the effectiveness of the .458WM loaded with 480 grain Woodleigh solids on elephant?

Cheers,

Ben

Ben,

I would not recommend them. If you are wanting to use a 458 Caliber rifle use one that can fire a 500-550 grain bullet at a respectable velocity. When you try and up the velocity by reducing bullet weight you are on the wrong track.

My old school opinion, heavy for caliber bullets perform much better on DG than light for caliber bullets.

 

[Pondoro]

I have to concurr with lvW here...from what limited ele hunting I have done I am rebarreling my ZKK 602 from .458Win. to .500 Jeffery...cant wait to test that round on elephant...will make it to weigh 11,5 lbs to combat recoil..

 

[IvW]

I have to concurr with lvW here...from what limited ele hunting I have done I am rebarreling my ZKK 602 from .458Win. to .500 Jeffery...cant wait to test that round on elephant...will make it to weigh 11,5 lbs to combat recoil..

Good choice, best elephant caliber ever developed for stopping elephant from a bolt action rifle.

 

[Nhoro]

Remember that in all of Africa, the 404 Jeff has killed more DG than any other caliber.

Sorry but I beg to differ-Don Heath aka Gunyana quoted from African Hunter and referring to Zimbabwe/Rhodesia culling operations- "For our elephant culling programmes we used .30-06 Springfield with 220gr A Square monolithic solids or Soviet armour piercing 7.62x 54R ammo. 30,000 elephants in a decade says this combination works. At the same time, our .500NE jesse guns proved they were not up to big bulls. From the short 18" barrels they just didn’t drive a .570gr bullet fast enough. Come to think of it, even from a 24" barrel they are marginal and require a good bullet to be considered satisfactory. For a client on an elephant hunt, a .40 calibre rifle is perfect and a .375 perfectly adequate assuming good bullets. "

Now I know that technically most of the culling were female and juvenile animals but they primarily used FN auto rifles for the bulk of killing so technically the 7.62 has probably killed more elephants than any other calibre and the AK 47 is sadly probably second.