Understanding The Barnes TSX Controversy

[ofbiro]

Dr.Carl Gremse, Senior Researcher of the Brandenburg State Forest Service (Germany), developed a very useful method to evaluate the bullet wounding behaviour.

 

[PerH]

Dr.Carl Gremse, Senior Researcher of the Brandenburg State Forest Service (Germany), developed a very useful method to evaluate the bullet wounding behaviour.

And all State German Forrest areas are lead free also for hunts , and they tried and seen the best and worst of all kinds of bullets . And accidents and injuries also due to richochets on hard ground .

 

[grand veneur]

A political background to all these studies cannot be denied. Lead-free bullets are increasingly required in many areas of various countries in Europe. Not everyone at beginning liked that, especially not hunters who were satisfied with their classic old bullets for decades. There were initially problems with various lead-free bullets, external ballistic problems in older rifles, but also terminal ballistic so that it became necessary to demonstrate to us through various studies that it is possible to kill game with lead-free bullets. In the meantime, the majority of us believe that, but still not all.

 

[Sarg]

I had a lot of German & Austrian hunters this year complaining about the mono bullet/lead free rules & one I remember shot for years all his game with a 30/06 & conventional lead core bullets but after many lost & wounded animals upped the caliber to 300Win Mag to do the same job.

I think he was not a reloader so couldn’t just juice up his 30/06 loads ?

 

[skydiver386]

A political background to all these studies cannot be denied. Lead-free bullets are increasingly required in many areas of various countries in Europe. Not everyone at beginning liked that, especially not hunters who were satisfied with their classic old bullets for decades. There were initially problems with various lead-free bullets, external ballistic problems in older rifles, but also terminal ballistic so that it became necessary to demonstrate to us through various studies that it is possible to kill game with lead-free bullets. In the meantime, the majority of us believe that, but still not all.

That is an important point. If non toxic projectiles become mandatory, thing will have to change on what constitutes a proper hunting load.

When non toxic steel shot became mandatory for waterfowl hunting here in the United States, gauges, chokes, wads, gunpowder, etc. all had to change to adapt. Tungsten, Bismuth, and other non toxic projectiles have complicated things even more.

All copper bullets v lead core will be no different. Calibers, bullet weights, twist rates, powders will all have to be worked out to see what gives the best performance.

The biggest change that will have to be made is our way of thinking.

 

[RichieG]

I this age of BC imperative this issues with barnes are solved by two things I suspect:

1. Hardness of the copper (Would you get a better result with a little annealing?)
2. Meplat, or width of hollow point.

I wonder if the pinholing (I've had it in 308 150gr TSX@ 2850fps odd MV reasonably close on an impala) isn't caused when either the bullet strikes no bone (well established) or the hollowpoint strikes at an angle which closes the hollow point rather than expands it. I think the peregrines with the wide meplat don't seem to have this issue because the impact pressure always expands the copper.

For me lead-core, bonded bullets with a solid shank like a TBBC or Safari Bullet Company are the most consistent hunting bullet out there. Swift is up there but not widely available which is a pity

Obviously lots of other bullets can work perfectly but we need to chose them carefully because speed, twist, quarry and distance all are critical inputs. Cost of hunting bullets maybe shouldn't be a consideration for most of us who don't hunt for a living.

 

[PerH]

Home - Fox Bullets - Since 2015!

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They are copper , but filled with tin or other metals . Performing like a cup core .

On YT there is some British channels trying them out and they like them much

Blaser loads them in a couple of cartridges also .

 

[colorado]

I have had a bag of 25 570g A-Frames sitting on my reloading shelf for about 5 years. The 570 TSXs shot and functioned so well I haven't bothered. This thread has got me motivated to load some up. I've also ordered another 100 from Swift

 

[Velo Dog]

Greetings all Hunters (especially fellow Rifle Grumps),

Reportedly, Barnes monumental expanding bullets are more reliable than when first introduced, especially their latest version, with that plastic thingy in the nose.
And that is definitely good news.
Having said that, evidently now and then, even that newest version fails to expand in some critter, resulting in an undesirable “ice pick type wound”.

With hunting rifles, I have experienced such consistently excellent performance from heavy for caliber, blunt shaped projectiles, within about 300 paces that, I see no reason to waste what little time I have left (I’m a geezer) with new bullet experimentation.
“Hollow point spitzers, bah-humbug”

If anyone wants to clobber me for that, go ahead.
Undoubtedly I’ve had worse.
(Been married twice).

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[skydiver386]

Greetings all Hunters (especially fellow Rifle Grumps),

Reportedly, Barnes monumental expanding bullets are more reliable than when first introduced, especially their latest version, with that plastic thingy in the nose.
And that is definitely good news.
Having said that, evidently now and then, even that newest version fails to expand in some critter, resulting in an undesirable “ice pick type wound”.

With hunting rifles, I have experienced such consistently excellent performance from heavy for caliber, blunt shaped projectiles, within about 300 paces that, I see no reason to waste what little time I have left (I’m a geezer) with new bullet experimentation.
“Hollow point spitzers, bah-humbug”

If anyone wants to clobber me for that, go ahead.
Undoubtedly I’ve had worse.
(Been married twice).

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

Well you know what they say about marriage. There are 3 rings.

1. The engagement ring.

2. The wedding ring.

3. The suffering.

 

[Velo Dog]

4. The bath tub ring.

Actually, my 2nd wife has put up with me for 31 years now, (28 of those in marriage).
She is a peach and what she sees in me remains a mystery.
So, perhaps I should use caution in typing jokes at her expense.
She’s that hypothetical “one in a million” and a real keeper.

 

[Graham Hunter]

I have switched from Barnes TSX to Hornady CX whenever the caliber is available. I have found 3 consistent things. 1. Less copper fouling. 2. Slightly better accuracy. 3. Less powder very small difference to acheive the same velocity. Also the expansion is better at longer ranges. Hornady is a Copper alloy vs Barnes all copper. Also CX is more available.

 

[ldmay375]

The terminal bullet performance of the 338 / 225 TSX, .375 / 270 TSX, .416 / 350 TSX & TTSX has been excellent when shooting moose. Bullet impacts were above 2000 fps. When gutting the animals, I have never had reason to doubt that those expanded.

Barrels vary, but even the old non-grooved X-bullets were no worse for copper fouling than the Swift A-Frames in my rifles. Neither of were of consequence for most hunting rifles' uses.

I am not Barnes zealot. I have never thought they were perfect. I also buy CEB, Hammer, and North Fork. I still have Swift A-Frames I would use with hesitation. I think in certain applications, certain bullets fit a purpose better. As do calibers and cartridges.

 

[Rafiki]

I wonder if the pinholing (I've had it in 308 150gr TSX@ 2850fps odd MV reasonably close on an impala) isn't caused when either the bullet strikes no bone (well established) or the hollowpoint strikes at an angle which closes the hollow point rather than expands it. I think the peregrines with the wide meplat don't seem to have this issue because the impact pressure always expands the copper.

I sure hope you are correct about Peregrines as in 9-days I'm leaving for a TZ buffalo hunt and Peregrine Bushmasters are all I'm taking.

 

[Rule 303]

I haven't read the last 2 pages but from what I can see impact velocity and rate of spin are needed to have Barnes work properly. I have seen some mono metal bullets with cuts on the outside of the nose. It would seem the depth and length determine how soon and how much for given velocities and rotational effect they open up.

I had not considered the rotational effect. However I did give in, always said I given Barnes enough of my money, and tried some 85 grain TSX? 270 cal designed for the 6.8SPC in my 6.8SPC. You would thought I would have learnt. Fired into two goats side on at 20mts. Took 3 shots on each, they just penciled through. The goats would have died from the first shot as was through the heart. Accuracy was so, so. About 1.5MOA. Yep, threw the rest of them in the bin.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Clipped the top of the heart? He’s dead!

Sounds like the other shots were not necessary. Could have waited a few more minutes.

Your comments are correct. Please allow me to elaborate:

1.) I am not a fan of frontal shots. There is a lot less room for error.
2.) At the time of the hunt, we did not know where I had hit the bull, only that we both heard the kugleschlauch and knew he was hit hard. We did not learn the details until later in the skinning shed.
3.) While I did not realize this bull was a world record trophy until told this later by my PH, the PH KNEW it was a very proper bull and likely a record class animal and he did not want to risk him getting up and running away.
4.) Neck shots are not great options since the spine is a small tgt and the bull was moving to raise his head at the time (moving small tgt). But, he was down in high grass and we were not in position to see other potential aiming points and did not want to shoot him in the head.
5.) Yes, he would have died anyway, but we did not know that at the time and PH wanted to finish him out of respect for the animal. I agreed and sent the shots.
6.) My earlier post was to point out that my limited experience with the TSX was underwhelming and while it worked, I did not think it to be all that impressive. I will however, continue to hunt with them. In comparison, I was very impressed with the terminal affects of the Federal Fusion ammo that was simply a hammer in every case. I had never hunted with it before either as I always used it for practice ammo since it was cheap. Having used it now, I have a newfound respect for it.
7.) Bullet placement is more important than bullet design. Choose a quality bullet that is tough enough and fast enough to penetrate your planned prey and that shoots well in your rifle and you will have fresh game in the bag. "Mic Drop"

 

[RichieG]

I sure hope you are correct about Peregrines as in 9-days I'm leaving for a TZ buffalo hunt and Peregrine Bushmasters are all I'm taking.

Have a great hunt Rafiki! What a pleasure.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS POST IS PURELY FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES WITH NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER TO CRITICIZE BARNES BULLETS

(I am still an avid fan & regular user)

Below is a 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load at 2150 FPS) that was recovered from an African Cape buffalo. Expansion was non-existent and the Cape buffalo required other shots in order to be taken down.

Photograph Source: Thaba Mahaka Safaris
View attachment 637494
Below is a 300Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Barnes VOR-TX factory load at 2530 FPS) recovered from an Asiatic Gaur. Expansion was quite beautiful.
View attachment 637493
So here we have two scenarios involving the Barnes TSX bullet. One quite disconcerting & one quite encouraging.

Let's try to understand why this happens. In the late 2000s, quite a few reports were emerging of Barnes TSX bullets (as well as the earlier unbanded Barnes X bullet) failing to expand properly on certain big game when fired from certain calibers. The phenomenon was chalked up to either:
a) Faults in the initial batches of copper alloy
Or
b) Faulty hand loads (as well as some factory loads) which weren't being loaded to the ideal spec

Then, in the last one decade... the complaints suddenly seem to have stopped. Until the recent incident with the .500 Nitro Express and the Cape buffalo. As well as a few incidents involving the .470 Nitro Express (more details on those incidents will hopefully reach me soon).

I always discouraged usage of the Barnes TSX bullet on soft framed big game such as lions or leopards (or tigers, hypothetically speaking). My reasoning was that the all-copper hollow points would not expand quick enough on the great cats (esp. for broadside heart-lung shots taken at this kind of game feeding on baits). There would simply not be enough resistance in order for the bullets to begin expanding properly. But a Cape buffalo is a very thick framed game anima which provides ample resistance for bullets. And that 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet should have expanded properly.

My hypothesis is that the high velocity (2530 FPS) of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Barnes VOR-TX factory load enabled my 300Gr Barnes TSX bullet to open up satisfactorily. While the relatively low velocity (2150 FPS) of the .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load impeded the bullet's expansion. This might also explain why there have also been documented issues of 500Gr Barnes TSX bullets failing to expand upon being fired from .470 Nitro Express rifles (at a velocity identical to the .500 Nitro Express) but not Barnes TSX bullets being fired from higher velocity calibers like the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or .416 Rigby.

Any thoughts/ insights here would be most welcome.

Warmest Regards,
Habib

@Hunter-Habib
Everything I heard and read Barnes need velocity. The faster the better and velocity under 2,200 fps may result in minimum expansion or zero expansion despite the claims by Barnes they will expand down to 1800fps.
I know a person that uses a 200 gn in his 44 mag on pigs and goats with great success BUT these have a hollow point you could get lost in its that big
Bob

 

[Rare Breed]

I used the 180gr TSX out of a .30/06 @ ~2600 in Namibia. I got good performance on zebra, gemsbok, two springbok and a steinbok from 20 yds to 250 yds. All made exit, but wrecked the vitals. I wouldn’t hesitate to use that combo again.
I shot a buffalo, two BWB, warthog, zebra, waterbuck, kudu and an impala with a .416 Ruger and a 400gr TSX. Longest shot was ~125 yds. All were one shot kills. Only bullets recovered were from a frontal shot on the buff and an insurance shot with a Banded Solid that went thru the spine, out the brisket and lodged in a leg.View attachment 637597
I’ve used Barnes TSX, TTSX and LRX in several other rounds at higher velocity and got similar or better performance on deer sized game. A friend used a 127gr LRX from a 6.5 CM last year to take a cow elk and got exit. He’s also gotten exit with a 130gr TTSX from a .308 on elk. He is an avid user of Barnes bullets and prefers lighter weights for caliber at higher velocity.

My experience is the larger the animal and thicker skin the Barnes TSX is great…when you go the opposite way not so much

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hard to draw any firm conclusions from a sample of one bullet. I am sure that every bullet design will have experienced a failure to expand or perform adequately at some time or other but unless the bullet is recovered it is hard to say if it has failed. Saying that it is entirely possible for one batch to be more or less likely to expand at a given velocity due to material variations, alterations in annealing etc. Was the batch of ammunition chronographed as giving 2150fps or is that data off the box? I assume the range for both shots was similar - sub 80m? If the data was off the box then could the velocity have been much lower?
I have a moderate amount of experience with Barnes bullets having shot three to four hundred deer with them as well as some African game, buff, warthog, kudu etc with the 300 grain .375 TSX at 2550fps. I agree that velocity helps these bullets do incredible things. Providing there is sufficient velocity I find they show signs of very rapid expansion indeed.
I should add that I tend to use the 130gr TTSX at 3000fps (.308W) and the 120g TTSX (7mm Rem Mag at 3450fps)

@SRvet
My experience is limited to the 25cal 100 TTSX at over 3,600fps. At those speeds they are absolutely devastating on light thin skinned game. Very rapid expansion and no recovered bullets.
Bob