Understanding The Barnes TSX Controversy

[grand veneur]

Ultimately it's all a question of impact velocity, although there should hardly be any problems with current small and medium caliber rifles. When it comes to big bore rifles and especially when it comes to the choice of suitable ammunition for double rifles, things can look completely different. If the involved double rifle moreover is an old and used rifle, the problem can become even more difficult.

Despite the fact that I also appreciate the Barnes bullets for many reasons, I remain of the opinion that for many big bore rifles and especially double rifles, you should primarily use classic SP bullets. Such statement leave some people outraged, but unfortunately that is so. These types of bullets are more suitable when the impact velocities are lower and due to the different jacket thickness, some are also suitable for older used double rifles. Nowadays we have enough premium SP bullets available for the big bore caliber classes. It is certain that Barnes TSX or Swift A-Frame bullets are superior to SP bullets, but they have to work as desired and not behave after impact like a frangible bullet or like a FMJ bullet.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I like Barnes bullets and have a few rifles that love them. I shoot a handloaded 100gr TTSX’s out of my 257Wby at astonishingly high velocities well over their factory loaded specs.

I’d suggest maybe looking into the metallurgical side of things. I have suspected something changed at some point in this, as I’ve seen differences in expansion, hit reaction, and wound channels from animals shot with the same gun and loading at very similar distances.

 

[Philip Glass]

I suppose anything can happen. I’ve used Barnes in 6 calibers including the 500g in the .470. I’ve always had good expansion.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hard to draw any firm conclusions from a sample of one bullet. I am sure that every bullet design will have experienced a failure to expand or perform adequately at some time or other but unless the bullet is recovered it is hard to say if it has failed. Saying that it is entirely possible for one batch to be more or less likely to expand at a given velocity due to material variations, alterations in annealing etc. Was the batch of ammunition chronographed as giving 2150fps or is that data off the box? I assume the range for both shots was similar - sub 80m? If the data was off the box then could the velocity have been much lower?
I have a moderate amount of experience with Barnes bullets having shot three to four hundred deer with them as well as some African game, buff, warthog, kudu etc with the 300 grain .375 TSX at 2550fps. I agree that velocity helps these bullets do incredible things. Providing there is sufficient velocity I find they show signs of very rapid expansion indeed.
I should add that I tend to use the 130gr TTSX at 3000fps (.308W) and the 120g TTSX (7mm Rem Mag at 3450fps)

I take it you're shooting those guns with cans attached?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

My experience with Barnes bullets and big bore calibers is limited to the shooting of two buffaloes with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum and the 450gr TSX bullet. It was a maximum load with a muzzle velocity of approximately 2600 fps. The shooting distances were in both cases between 50 and 100 yards. In both cases the bullets were maximally expanded.

As far as the rifling is concerned, that certainly plays a role by the use of modern bullets and there are differences between modern barrels for bolt action rifles caliber 375, 416 or 458 and barrels for double rifles caliber 470 and above.

You must be a big fella to hang onto that gun with those bullets at that velocity. Wow!

 

[JG26Irish_2]

My experience with Barnes TSX is quite limited. This past July on a Safari to Africa, I took one animal with my 375HH FN Browning using the 300g TSX ammo. This was a rather large Blue Wildebeest bull that weighed in at just over 600lbs. The first shot at 160y was a frontal shot slightly quartering right that hit the right lung, clipped the top of the heart and just clipped the left lung before penetrating about 36" lodging in the paunch. The bull jumped, bucked and ran about 60y before falling. We approached to 60y where my PH suggested a 2nd shot to anchor the bull. That shot was to the neck and was a thru and thru shot but did not finish the animal. When we got to 10y more or less I fired a third shot to the chest that finished the beast. That bullet was found under the hide on the opposite side. MV was about 2500fps and impact vel for shot one was about 2250fps. That shot opened up to 0.72" or about 1.9x. Shot 3 at very close range opened up to 0.80" or 2.1x.

In comparison my 308 loaded with 180g bonded bullets managed to drop five animals at ranges from 20y to 202y all with one shot kills and none ran further than 60y (Gemsbok shot at 202y). I was a bit underwhelmed by the Barnes performance. While the first shot killed the Wildebeest it still took two more to finish it. The hunt was a dress rehearsal for a DG hunt in 2025. I am still pondering which ammo to use for Cape Buffalo on that hunt. My rifle shots the Barnes very well and at closer ranges I should not worry about it expanding. From what I have seen, it does seem to expand more slowly than traditional soft point ammo. My other option is Swift A-Frames also in 300g.

I am tuning up a Husqvarna 30-06 for PG hunting next year as we will be in Free State for part of that time and I want to hunt some critters that will possibly take longer shots. I have tested 180g Barnes TTSX and Swift Sciroccos, as well as Fusion bonded (What I used with the 308). The rifle shot them all well but liked the Swift and Barnes pills the best. I will probably not use the Barnes for that rifle.

Below is a pic of the two recovered TSX bullets from my Wildebeest as well as a pic of the animal which measure about 1/8" short of a Rowland Ward record book trophy (Prelim numbers).

 

[skydiver386]

Well the issue is when TSX bullets seemingly fail to expand at normal factory loads, and at middling if not short distance. Not an issue of too long a range, or a weak load.

Barnes may say 1500, but my eyebrows are raised when there are reports of broadside, 100 yards 30 caliber shots from factory loads which should be at 2500 penciling through.

Similarly, I find the thoughts on twist interesting: Would the Barnes TSX reliably expand at 2400 out of my 1:10, but fail for someone with a 1:12?

The answer is YES!

This is a direct quote from Cutting Edge Bullets.

"If your rifle has the listed twist rate or faster, you will be able to shoot that bullet. If it is slower, you WILL NOT be able to shoot that bullet. These listed twist rates are a REQUIREMENT to shoot said bullet, not a suggestion."

This requirement for faster twist rates is not just for accuracy through the air, it's also important at the point of impact with the animal.

Telling someone to "Just drive e'm fast and you'll be ok" is horrible advice. It leaves out half of the formula that makes most mono bullets perform properly on game.

Twist Rate X Velocity = Rotational Speed

When a bullets forward speed slows down, it's ROTATIONAL SPEED also slows down. Once the bullets ROTATIONAL SPEED (read that as centrifical force) goes below a certain level, that bullet will fail even if it's forward speed is above the recommended minimum!

This is exactly why a .458 500 grain bullet out of a rifle with a 1-10 twist performs wonderfully, but a .458 500 grain out of an older rifle with a 1-16 twist will often fail.

Adding velocity only partially solves the problem because it is only half of the equation.

 

[ldmay375]

My experience with Barnes TSX is quite limited. This past July on a Safari to Africa, I took one animal with my 375HH FN Browning using the 300g TSX ammo. This was a rather large Blue Wildebeest bull that weighed in at just over 600lbs. The first shot at 160y was a frontal shot slightly quartering right that hit the right lung, clipped the top of the heart and just clipped the left lung before penetrating about 36" lodging in the paunch. The bull jumped, bucked and ran about 60y before falling. We approached to 60y where my PH suggested a 2nd shot to anchor the bull. That shot was to the neck and was a thru and thru shot but did not finish the animal. When we got to 10y more or less I fired a third shot to the chest that finished the beast. That bullet was found under the hide on the opposite side. MV was about 2500fps and impact vel for shot one was about 2250fps. That shot opened up to 0.72" or about 1.9x. Shot 3 at very close range opened up to 0.80" or 2.1x.

In comparison my 308 loaded with 180g bonded bullets managed to drop five animals at ranges from 20y to 202y all with one shot kills and none ran further than 60y (Gemsbok shot at 202y). I was a bit underwhelmed by the Barnes performance. While the first shot killed the Wildebeest it still took two more to finish it. The hunt was a dress rehearsal for a DG hunt in 2025. I am still pondering which ammo to use for Cape Buffalo on that hunt. My rifle shots the Barnes very well and at closer ranges I should not worry about it expanding. From what I have seen, it does seem to expand more slowly than traditional soft point ammo. My other option is Swift A-Frames also in 300g.

I am tuning up a Husqvarna 30-06 for PG hunting next year as we will be in Free State for part of that time and I want to hunt some critters that will possibly take longer shots. I have tested 180g Barnes TTSX and Swift Sciroccos, as well as Fusion bonded (What I used with the 308). The rifle shot them all well but liked the Swift and Barnes pills the best. I will probably not use the Barnes for that rifle.

Below is a pic of the two recovered TSX bullets from my Wildebeest as well as a pic of the animal which measure about 1/8" short of a Rowland Ward record book trophy (Prelim numbers).

View attachment 637943View attachment 637945

Seems to me the bullets performed very well.
A shot to the neck, without hitting the spinal cord is a stunning shot, or a bleed out shot if by chance the large blood vein is hit; at best.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Twist Rate X Velocity = Rotational Speed

Good stuff but the forumla is:
Bullet RPM = MV X 720/Twist Rate (in inches)

Example at 2400 fps with 1 in 14" twist
RPM = 2400 x 720/14
RPM = 2400 x 51.429
RPM = 123,430

Example at 2400 fps with 1 in 10" twist
RPM = 2400 x 720/10
RPM = 2400 x 72
RPM = 172,800

 

[dchum]

My experience with Barnes TSX is quite limited. This past July on a Safari to Africa, I took one animal with my 375HH FN Browning using the 300g TSX ammo. This was a rather large Blue Wildebeest bull that weighed in at just over 600lbs. The first shot at 160y was a frontal shot slightly quartering right that hit the right lung, clipped the top of the heart and just clipped the left lung before penetrating about 36" lodging in the paunch. The bull jumped, bucked and ran about 60y before falling. We approached to 60y where my PH suggested a 2nd shot to anchor the bull. That shot was to the neck and was a thru and thru shot but did not finish the animal. When we got to 10y more or less I fired a third shot to the chest that finished the beast. That bullet was found under the hide on the opposite side. MV was about 2500fps and impact vel for shot one was about 2250fps. That shot opened up to 0.72" or about 1.9x. Shot 3 at very close range opened up to 0.80" or 2.1x.

In comparison my 308 loaded with 180g bonded bullets managed to drop five animals at ranges from 20y to 202y all with one shot kills and none ran further than 60y (Gemsbok shot at 202y). I was a bit underwhelmed by the Barnes performance. While the first shot killed the Wildebeest it still took two more to finish it. The hunt was a dress rehearsal for a DG hunt in 2025. I am still pondering which ammo to use for Cape Buffalo on that hunt. My rifle shots the Barnes very well and at closer ranges I should not worry about it expanding. From what I have seen, it does seem to expand more slowly than traditional soft point ammo. My other option is Swift A-Frames also in 300g.

I am tuning up a Husqvarna 30-06 for PG hunting next year as we will be in Free State for part of that time and I want to hunt some critters that will possibly take longer shots. I have tested 180g Barnes TTSX and Swift Sciroccos, as well as Fusion bonded (What I used with the 308). The rifle shot them all well but liked the Swift and Barnes pills the best. I will probably not use the Barnes for that rifle.

Below is a pic of the two recovered TSX bullets from my Wildebeest as well as a pic of the animal which measure about 1/8" short of a Rowland Ward record book trophy (Prelim numbers).

View attachment 637943View attachment 637945

Clipped the top of the heart? He’s head!

Sounds like the other shots were not necessary. Could have waited a few more minuets.

 

[Deepfork]

It is twist rate.

This is a quote from Steve at Hammer bullets.

"We learned this when we first started impact testing bullets in the beginning of marketing Hammers. We were low velocity testing to confirm proper performance at 1800 fps. Launched a bullet at 1800 fps and recovered it looking like it could be loaded again. The only distortion was engraving from the rifling. Very disappointing as this is our advertised min. We decided to increase the vel to find out the min for this particular bullet, but could not get any more powder in the case. We had another rifle of the same caliber with a larger case so we grabbed it. First launch was right at 1800 fps. I remember thinking " That was a wasted shot". Went and dug the bullet out of the media to find a perfectly deformed shank. Hmmm... The only diff was barrel twist. Lots of lightbulbs went on at that moment. Ran the stability numbers and the first bullet was about 1.2 sg and the second bullet was over 1.5 sg.
Just because you can get a bullet to an animal accurately does not mean the bullet will perform properly. Marginally stable for ballistics can shoot extremely accurately but significantly increase the odds of failure to expand."

Straight from the designer of the Hammer mono metal bullets "THE ONLY DIFF WAS BARREL TWIST. LOTS OF LIGHTBULBS WENT OFF AT THAT MOMENT "

To make this as simple as possible, I'll use a very basic illustration. If you had a 30-06 with a smoothbore barrel (no rifling twist), and fired a Barnes TSX bullet from it at 2900 fps into a block of ballistic gel at point blank range, it would likely fail to expand. It would enter the ballistic get point forward, and very rapidly yaw sideways until it had turned 180 degrees, and the base was pointing forward. The nose of the bullet will be pushed inward, not outward. This 180 turn is very common for projectiles with limited gyroscopic stability, and the M-16 rifle was famous for it during the war in Vietnam.

This is most likely the reason for the bullets failure to expand, and also explains the small exit wounds noted by some.

That same 30-06 with the same bullet at the same 2900fps velocity, but with a rifled barrel spinning the bullet at a rate of 1 turn for every 8 inches of forward travel, or 1/8, will produce a beautifully mushroomed 4 petal Barnes X. What is the difference between the two examples? Twist. Centrifical force. 2900fps X 1 turn in 8 inches = 261,000 RPM!

You don't crush the bullet nose open on a Barnes X, you SPIN the bullet nose open.

I like that a minimum barrel twist is listed for every Hammer bullet.

I have same weight/caliber .338 (185gr) bullets from Hammer, Barnes and Hornady CX. I thought it would be interesting to work up loads with all three of the copper bullets in my .338WM and 338.06AI. On paper the Hammer bullets out performed the other two easily as far as velocity and accuracy.

In .308 my 135gr Hammer load out performs the 130gr TTSX.

I have shot a lot of deer and wild pigs with .30 cal Barnes bullets and it is not unusual to see exits the same size as entry wounds. I have had better results with lead bullets with a solid shank or partition...A-frames, Nosler Partitions or Federal TBT. My opinion they are a better choice on deer sized animals at .308 - 30-06 velocities than any copper.

 

[skydiver386]

You are 100% correct. I was trying to simplify things.

Good stuff but the forumla is:
Bullet RPM = MV X 720/Twist Rate (in inches)

Example at 2400 fps with 1 in 14" twist
RPM = 2400 x 720/14
RPM = 2400 x 51.429
RPM = 123,430

Example at 2400 fps with 1 in 10" twist
RPM = 2400 x 720/10
RPM = 2400 x 72
RPM = 172,800

Bullet Spin Rate Calculator - Calculator Academy

Bullet Spin Rate Calculator Enter any 2 values to calculate the missing variable Muzzle Velocity ft/s m/s Barrel Twist Rate inches per turn cm per turn

calculator.academy

The question we should be asking is, what is the minimum remaining spin rate required to get a Barnes X to expand.

 

[dogcat1]

I cannot address twist rate but I shoot the TSX and TTSX in .223, .243, .257 wby, 7x57, .280 Rem, .7mm Rem Mag, .300 HH and .300 WM and .375 HH. All work and kill everything I have hunted with them.
I use some factory ammo and some reloads. I much prefer these to Accubonds, Partitions and others. To me, the only better killer is the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

 

[Safari Dave]

IMO, the Barnes TSX should be treated as somewhat of a hybrid between a solid and an expanding bullet in the larger, slower, cartridges.

(maybe the perfect one bullet safari option??? - IDK)


Every one that I have shot has expanded, (a little) in .470NE.


I think it is a great bullet, for some expansion, and deep penetration, but I think there is a distinct possibility that one might exit and hit another animal, if not used properly.

 

[Deepfork]

To me, the only better killer is the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

Yep, Trophy Bonded Tip are basically the same but with a polymer tip,

 

[OxfordTheCat]

Yep, Trophy Bonded Tip are basically the same but with a polymer tip,

I did just get some Federal Premium Trophy Copper.
Which is Federal's loading of the Nosler Etip.

Googling suggests its slightly harder than the TSX, but opens more readily because of a larger cavity.

 

[Deepfork]

I did just get some Federal Premium Trophy Copper.
Which is Federal's loading of the Nosler Etip.

Googling suggests its slightly harder than the TSX, but opens more readily because of a larger cavity.

Never worked with those. Seems like all of the Federal bullets a almost impossible to get, they are more about loaded ammo.

 

[BryceM]

I've chatted many times with several of the Barnes guys. Their shop isn't so far from where I live. They're pretty open with information. Give them a call. My understanding is that the design impact velocities of different calibers are different, but I haven't heard that directly from them. They obviously know just about every .458, .474, or .500 bullet is going to be used in slower rifles.

I've used them for years with excellent results. That said, I'm not so sure I'd favor them in big bores with less than 2000 fps muzzle velocities.

Also, I wouldn't be so surprised that a buffalo required additional shots to bring it down. As others have said, it's pretty hard to design a bullet that will expand and penetrate perfectly at every angle and in every situation on buffalo.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

@Deepfork

I found your comments earlier interesting - the dog I have in this hunt is that I pulled in some 30-06 170 Lapua Naturalis, 180 Barnes TSX, and 180 Federal Trophy Copper.

I was planning on taking a crack at moving away from the 220gr Corelokt and Sako Hammerhead, but this thread (and the litany of others) has me reconsidering the merits. Your feeling is that the coppers can result in pass throughs without expansion in 30 Cal?

Stick to basics?
The big shoot off to see what the rifle might prefer is Canadian Thanksgiving weekend, so that's my interest beyond the usual curiosity when it comes to TSX and related things.
Admittedly, I was hoping the Naturalis would win out from what I've seen in other penetration and performance related data.

But the common theme here is that guys that like the TSX seem to like them, and use them in a laundry list of calibers.

Big part of why I like these threads and find them interesting

 

[Deepfork]

@Deepfork

I found your comments earlier interesting - the dog I have in this hunt is that I pulled in some 30-06 170 Lapua Naturalis, 180 Barnes TSX, and 180 Federal Trophy Copper.

I was planning on taking a crack at moving away from the 220gr Corelokt and Sako Hammerhead, but this thread (and the litany of others) has me reconsidering the merits. Your feeling is that the coppers can result in pass throughs without expansion in 30 Cal?

Stick to basics?
The big shoot off to see what the rifle might prefer is Canadian Thanksgiving weekend, so that's my interest beyond the usual curiosity when it comes to TSX and related things.
Admittedly, I was hoping the Naturalis would win out from what I've seen in other penetration and performance related data. But wanted to jump on the TSX boat if I could.

Yes that is exactly my experience with the copper bullets vs lead tips for Deer and pigs at home and a few plains animals in Africa. Bigger exit wounds, more blood and quicker recoveries with Trophy Bonded Tips and Partitions vs TSX bullets.