TV star hunts livestock

[Blue Moon]

Thanks! Maybe not the best entry though.

 

[Nyati]

Welcome to AH, I have hunted moose in Loppi, southern Finland, driven hunt, with beaters and dogs.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Nothing like making a big splash.

 

[CAustin]

Welcome to AH sir.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Well..........once in a Blue Moon. One and done. Good job Jerome!

 

[MAdcox]

Well handled sir, welcome to the site.

 

[GuttormG]

Sweeden does not have any wild reindeer, they are all domesticated for 100s of years, have eartags and owners. They are herded between pastures as season change and the surplus butchered and sold of (very nice meat!!).
Legal or not I do not now, but deffinitly no challenge of any kind to shoot one.
If one wants to shoot wild reindeer Norway is the place to go.

Yes, the posted video did not show any reindeer beeing hunted, but the text clearly said that the full movie included hunting of reindeer.


Making a small mental note, read all before posting☺

 

[Shootist43]

Welcome aboard Blue Moon. Now that the "fog" has been cleared away it is relatively easy to see that you are an ethical hunter whose posts belong here. Thank you for clarifying your point and not giving up on AH. How about posting some stories and photos of your previous hunts. Do you have any plans or thoughts about hunting Africa in the future?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The anti-hunting influence is on the increase and as everyone knows ethics surrounding hunting is more important than ever. It is therefore pretty sad to discover that one of the most recognized names in the business, Jim Shockey, apparently seems to have been in Sweden filming a hunt on domesticated reindeer and that the show is airing on one of the networks.

https://www.wildtv.ca/preview/5769

No hunter in Sweden with any form of moral compass would hunt these animals and if so they would instantly become the laughing stock of the community. According to a journalistic text in one of the national hunting magazines, it is also questionable whether it is legal due to the fact that these animals are categorized as livestock.

Another case concerning a Hungarian politician has hit the headlines the last couple of days:

https://budapestbeacon.com/semjen-might-have-illegally-downed-a-reindeer-in-sweden/

Nevertheless, I just wanted to give everyone a heads up so that you do not book any of these hunts without knowing.

PS: For hunting wild reindeer neighboring Norway is a much better choice.

This thread raises a couple of questions for me and leaves me a little confused. In these posts it has been said that the reindeer in Sweden are free roaming but owned by the Sami people. And specifically in the Hungarian article, the link you provided it says:

Earlier Hungarian wildlife filmmaker Gábor Török who had made several films about reindeer in Sweden noted in a Facebook post that has since been removed that wild reindeer became all but extinct in Sweden about 150 years ago, therefore it is impossible that Semjén downed a wild animal. According to Török, during the autumn herding season Sámi reindeer herders usually sort out larger bulls, whose flesh is untasty after the breeding season, and for a fee they allow tourists to shoot them.

It would seem reasonable that these people who own the animals would have some level of property rights to conduct such hunts if they want. Perhaps not much of a hunt particularly to a native Swede, but is it illegal? I know you provided a link to another Swedish article that says it is. But in so doing you've posted two articles that contradict the other. Which am I to believe?

Regarding Mr. Shockey, I will concede I am biased. I've met Jim and his wife a number of times over the years. The first time was at a small show before he became the celebrity he is now. I find him to be pretty much the same gentleman now as I did then.

Jim's shows which have been filmed all over the world, have always in my opinion did a great job of showing conservation through hunting. I have also appreciated that he has shown hunters in a better light then the typical American deer hunting shows that portray hunters as clowns.

Now Jim is human and certainly just like the rest of us capable of error. However I find it hard to believe he would be stupid enough to not only participate in an illegal hunt, but also to film it and advertise it. I do believe that Jim has earned some benefit of doubt through his contributions to conservation and preserving hunting world wide.

So I'm quite hesitant to jump in and do what we as hunters are so inclined to do and turn on one of our own. There are very few facts about this situation known, at least from my perspective. It seems we can be confident that Jim went to Sweden for hunting trip. And it would seem he took a reindeer while there. But the details of that hunt are pretty much unknown at this point. Until those details are known, I will withhold any opinion.

 

[IdaRam]

This thread raises a couple of questions for me and leaves me a little confused. In these posts it has been said that the reindeer in Sweden are free roaming but owned by the Sami people. And specifically in the Hungarian article, the link you provided it says:

Earlier Hungarian wildlife filmmaker Gábor Török who had made several films about reindeer in Sweden noted in a Facebook post that has since been removed that wild reindeer became all but extinct in Sweden about 150 years ago, therefore it is impossible that Semjén downed a wild animal. According to Török, during the autumn herding season Sámi reindeer herders usually sort out larger bulls, whose flesh is untasty after the breeding season, and for a fee they allow tourists to shoot them.

It would seem reasonable that these people who own the animals would have some level of property rights to conduct such hunts if they want. Perhaps not much of a hunt particularly to a native Swede, but is it illegal? I know you provided a link to another Swedish article that says it is. But in so doing you've posted two articles that contradict the other. Which am I to believe?

Regarding Mr. Shockey, I will concede I am biased. I've met Jim and his wife a number of times over the years. The first time was at a small show before he became the celebrity he is now. I find him to be pretty much the same gentleman now as I did then.

Jim's shows which have been filmed all over the world, have always in my opinion did a great job of showing conservation through hunting. I have also appreciated that he has shown hunters in a better light then the typical American deer hunting shows that portray hunters as clowns.

Now Jim is human and certainly just like the rest of us capable of error. However I find it hard to believe he would be stupid enough to not only participate in an illegal hunt, but also to film it and advertise it. I do believe that Jim has earned some benefit of doubt through his contributions to conservation and preserving hunting world wide.

So I'm quite hesitant to jump in and do what we as hunters are so inclined to do and turn on one of our own. There are very few facts about this situation known, at least from my perspective. It seems we can be confident that Jim went to Sweden for hunting trip. And it would seem he took a reindeer while there. But the details of that hunt are pretty much unknown at this point. Until those details are known, I will withhold any opinion.

Amen, and very well said. Thank you Phil!

 

[GuttormG]

It is illegal, it is slaughter of livestock and goverened by same rules and regulations as slaughtering of any other livestock.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Obviously the clip does not show any Reindeer hunting, but it is in the title.

I'm all for calling something out, when the facts are in. Is there a Grey area??

Can anyone show us the link to the law that would apply to hunting Reindeer?



Reindeer husbandry today in Sweden is a small industry on a national scale, but both in a Sámi and local context, it has great importance. Reindeer husbandry is not only important economically and in employment terms, it is also one of the most important parts of the Sámi culture. According to the reindeer husbandry act the Reindeer Husbandry should be economically, ecologically and culturally sustainable. In other words, reindeer husbandry in Sweden should be conducted in a way so it gives a reasonable number of entrepreneurs a good living.
http://reindeerherding.org/herders/sami-sweden/

https://www.laits.utexas.edu/sami/diehtu/siida/herding/herding-sw.htm

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Obviously the clip does not show any Reindeer hunting, but it is in the title.
View attachment 222537



I'm all for calling something out, when the facts are in. Is there a Grey area??

Can anyone show us the link to the law that would apply to hunting Reindeer?



Reindeer husbandry today in Sweden is a small industry on a national scale, but both in a Sámi and local context, it has great importance. Reindeer husbandry is not only important economically and in employment terms, it is also one of the most important parts of the Sámi culture. According to the reindeer husbandry act the Reindeer Husbandry should be economically, ecologically and culturally sustainable. In other words, reindeer husbandry in Sweden should be conducted in a way so it gives a reasonable number of entrepreneurs a good living.
http://reindeerherding.org/herders/sami-sweden/

https://www.laits.utexas.edu/sami/diehtu/siida/herding/herding-sw.htm

http://huntingconsortium.com/europe/sweden/

The European Reindeer boasts the biggest trophy mass, compared to its body weight, of any member of the deer family. In Sweden these animals are considered the property of the Sami people, in the region known unofficially as “Lapland”, where reindeer roam freely. Hunting for nonresidents is generally not available, but sometimes exceptions are made. Many of the top 10 bulls listed in the SCI Record Book were taken by our clients.

 

[Hunting Sailor]

There’s no law about it as it is domesticated animals, like the rest, cow, horse, sheep, etc. No season, no limitation on calibers etc.

So, I highly doubt anything illegal is taking place in shooting a reindeer, with the approval of the owner.

//Gus

 

[GuttormG]

It is illegal, it is slaughter of livestock and goverened by same rules and regulations as slaughtering of any other livestock.

I need to correct myself, it is NOT illegal to shot this reindeers given one has the owners permission.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I need to correct myself, it is NOT illegal to shot this reindeers given one has the owners permission.

Thank you for doing so, that is a significant correction.

 

[Dragan N.]

I need to correct myself, it is NOT illegal to shot this reindeers given one has the owners permission.

That makes more sense now, as assuming Sweden has similar property laws as most of the West, I would find I surprising that it would be illegal to "hunt" livestock given the owner's permission. As livestock I assume is considered the owner's property.

However, if reindeer in Sweden are considered livestock and there are no wild herds left I can definitely understand blue Moon's point. As if a hunting t.v. star went on a hunt for a cow on a cattle ranch in the American west I think it is safe to say it wouldn't look very good...

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

That makes more sense now, as assuming Sweden has similar property laws as most of the West, I would find I surprising that it would be illegal to "hunt" livestock given the owner's permission. As livestock I assume is considered the owner's property.

However, if reindeer in Sweden are considered livestock and there are no wild herds left I can definitely understand blue Moon's point. As if a hunting t.v. star went on a hunt for a cow on a cattle ranch in the American west I think it is safe to say it wouldn't look very good...

I don't disagree but consider this is Jim Shockey. He is a spokesperson for hunting as a whole. He promotes sustainable use conservation and lauds those who practice it. Could it be that this episode is being used to praise the efforts of Sami people and their conservation of reindeer and not so much about some epic hunt? I don't know the answer to that obviously, but again I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt and wait until I've had a chance to see the show. I realize these reindeer have been domesticated. But I'm not sure the rest of the world necessarily sees these animals like a cow or a pig.

 

[Blue Moon]

Everything that has to do with hunting is very regulated, more so than in many other countries. As GuttormG pointed out, these animals are registered as livestock not as wild animals, which means that a totally different set of rules apply. The owners can of course slaughter them, but that does not by definition give them the right to sell permits to outside hunters on public land, which they do not own. Generally speaking, hunting rights come with land ownership, and the Sames who own and work these herds do not own the land. They have constitutional rights to manage these herds on both private and public land. On public land in the mountain regions (where these hunts have been conducted) they also have hunting rights on wild animals but species, hunting periods and other things are strictly regulated through rules and regulations on state level.

Legal issues set aside (it is clear that it is somewhat of a grey area), the main problem is that it is not considered good sportsmanship to hunt these animals since they are domesticated and not afraid of humans. I have read the hunting reports on this forum and everyone contains amazing achievements by dedicated and very skilled hunters. These reindeer hunts would not qualify in to that category. I feel sorry for those hunters who have paid large sums in the belief that it is comparable to a hunt on wild animals, but on the other hand you are always responsible to do your own due diligence. At the end of the day, these hunts are not good publicity for the hunting community and as everyone knows we live in times where hunting constantly is questioned by some media outlets and politicians.

 

[Blue Moon]

There’s no law about it as it is domesticated animals, like the rest, cow, horse, sheep, etc. No season, no limitation on calibers etc.

So, I highly doubt anything illegal is taking place in shooting a reindeer, with the approval of the owner.

//Gus

You are right absolutely right about the no law regarding caliber etc., but one of the issues here is that owners of the herd do not own the land and hunting rights come with land. As soon as you put a rifle in the hand of an outside person he needs to have a permit or at least permission from the landowner. For instance I cannot cross anothers man's property with a rifle unless I have permission to do so.