Tungsten buckshot for leopard follow up?

[503]

You obviously have not read and understood the concept. It clearly states that it is meant to blind the animal and get dispatched with a rifle or slug. If the animal can't see, it can't attack you. Tell some Guides in Alaska that hunt Grizzly Bears that it's a bad idea because some of them use this tactic.

I read it and understand the concept. It is a terrible concept. If you can make a head shot on a charging leopard then why do it with birdshot then follow up with something that will actually kill it?

Why not just shoot a round that will kill it in the first place. And even it it's blinded the first thing that cat gets ahold of is going to get shredded.

And while I've never hunted leopard I have been a cop for almost 20 years and I've pointed shotguns at a lot of people. And oddly enough we don't use birdshot to blind the armed felon so we can then shoot him with a rifle or something. We use slugs or buckshot because those are made to stop dangerous people/animals.

And if I did meet a grizzly guide who used birdshot to blind a charging bear I would tell him that's a terrible idea then pack my shit and leave because there's no way I'd hunt with that bozo.

Cheers

503

 

[HankBuck]

I read it and understand the concept. It is a terrible concept. If you can make a head shot on a charging leopard then why do it with birdshot then follow up with something that will actually kill it?

Why not just shoot a round that will kill it in the first place. And even it it's blinded the first thing that cat gets ahold of is going to get shredded.

And while I've never hunted leopard I have been a cop for almost 20 years and I've pointed shotguns at a lot of people. And oddly enough we don't use birdshot to blind the armed felon so we can then shoot him with a rifle or something. We use slugs or buckshot because those are made to stop dangerous people/animals.

And if I did meet a grizzly guide who used birdshot to blind a charging bear I would tell him that's a terrible idea then pack my shit and leave because there's no way I'd hunt with that bozo.

Cheers

503

Question for you - as a Police Officer familiar with how shotguns are used by Law Enforcement - do Police use #4 buckshot? I use to hire off duty police to provide security for a Retailer in NJ back in the 1980s and 90s - also in NYC. There had been a hostage situation in Plainfield NJ in 1985 and Police had to fire upon the hostage taker - 12 to 15 Officers fired service revolvers and All missed, one Officer fired two shots from 12ga pump w/#4 buck and over 40 pellets connected/eliminated perp. I asked him why Police used #4 buck vs. 00 etc.? He said “pattern kills”. Another Officer in Manhattan told me he was involved in a shooting and used 12 ga pump with Slugs to return fire - which surprised me ( I thought it was always buckshot). I have No first hand knowledge and was never a Police Officer, only worked with some and believe they were telling me accurate accounts.

 

[503]

Question for you - as a Police Officer familiar with how shotguns are used by Law Enforcement - do Police use #4 buckshot? I use to hire off duty police to provide security for a Retailer in NJ back in the 1980s and 90s - also in NYC. There had been a hostage situation in Plainfield NJ in 1985 and Police had to fire upon the hostage taker - 12 to 15 Officers fired service revolvers and All missed, one Officer fired two shots from 12ga pump w/#4 buck and over 40 pellets connected/eliminated perp. I asked him why Police used #4 buck vs. 00 etc.? He said “pattern kills”. Another Officer in Manhattan told me he was involved in a shooting and used 12 ga pump with Slugs to return fire - which surprised me ( I thought it was always buckshot). I have No first hand knowledge and was never a Police Officer, only worked with some and believe they were telling me accurate accounts.

I haven't heard of any depts around me using 4 buck in a long time. I think that was more popular back in the 60s thought the 80s.

Most depts run 00 buck or slugs. They do way better going through barriers like car windows etc. Our dept. Uses winchester ranger slugs and 00 buck. It's the low recoil stuff. I'm not too thrilled with that since low recoil means less energy but its what the gold badges buy so it's what I roll with.

I carry slugs in mine. I'd much rather have that for defense than birdshot for obvious reasons haha.

Cheers

503

 

[HankBuck]

I haven't heard of any depts around me using 4 buck in a long time. I think that was more popular back in the 60s thought the 80s.

Most depts run 00 buck or slugs. They do way better going through barriers like car windows etc. Our dept. Uses winchester ranger slugs and 00 buck. It's the low recoil stuff. I'm not too thrilled with that since low recoil means less energy but its what the gold badges buy so it's what I roll with.

I carry slugs in mine. I'd much rather have that for defense than birdshot for obvious reasons haha.

Cheers

503

Thank you for the insight - and the work you do...stay safe

 

[dchum]

Works

 

[steve white]

Works

Well, that just about settles THAT. Nothing like actual evidence.

 

[BeeMaa]

Works

View attachment 551560View attachment 551561View attachment 551562

Of course it works because that looks like at least #4 Buckshot (.24 inch diameter) if not bigger. Not #8 birdshot that was used to blind a charging cat as @archer36 was recommending.

Please don't leave @archer36. At least not until you have given the names of these mysterious AK guides that are using birdshot to blind charging bears.

 

[IvW]

Why wouldn't it work?

Nr.8 shot is for doves or quall.....they poses 0 sd....now unless we are hunting leopard spotted birds that are the size of my hand ....

I am truelly out of words that someone would even consider such as an option on a charging leopard......
What is the spread of Nr.8 shot at 5 feet?

Have you ever faced and stopped a charging leopard?

They wait until you are on top of them before they launch an attack....at truelly blinding speed....you need something that can stop it in its tracks not try and blind it.....it is 160 to 220lbs of bodybuilder muscle coming at you at blinding speed.....with the main intention of giving you a sex change and 200 stiches before you you can say bob....

Lead buckshot is also not something I ever used due to lack of penetration....unless you shoot it off the barrel so to speak which is often the case.....

I have not had an oportunity to test the new hotshot TSS stuff but if it lives up to its reputation some form off it in buckshot may do the trick....

A double barrel double trigger shotgun short in the barrels is what I use loaded with original Brenneke slugs.....not dove shot.....

As for using nr.8 shot to "blind" a charging grizzly...I have zero grizz experience....but I can assure you I sure as shit wont be booking a hunt with an outfitter who uses that combination as a backup rifle on grizzly bears.....

 

[dchum]

Of course it works because that looks like at least #4 Buckshot (.24 inch diameter) if not bigger. Not #8 birdshot that was used to blind a charging cat as @archer36 was recommending.

Please don't leave @archer36. At least not until you have given the names of these mysterious AK guides that are using birdshot to blind charging bears.

Ya it’s 00 buck is you read the post above too.
This is just for all the office chair PH’s that say nothing less than a 4 bore is good for a charging cat. Meanwhile all the best cat guys across Africa grab their 12g when going after a cat in the bush.

Of course it works because that looks like at least #4 Buckshot (.24 inch diameter) if not bigger. Not #8 birdshot that was used to blind a charging cat as @archer36 was recommending.

Please don't leave @archer36. At least not until you have given the names of these mysterious AK guides that are using birdshot to blind charging bears.

wasn’t talking about that. And there were many people saying buck shot is not a wise choice. My posts were to point out many top cat men reach for a shotgun these days with todays ammo

 

[juan pablo pozzi]

I used shotguns on mountain lion and another cats with good results.I fire shotguns year round so thats the matter if you are confident and expert with the shotgun you will wait and put the pellets atshort

I believe the single biggest factor in what one should have in his hands if following up a wounded leopard is ‘Which gun are you most proficient with under pressure?’ For me individually, that’d make it a 2 3/4” Beretta autoloading shotgun in 12 gauge. While I’ve shot rifles my entire life, I’ve fired shotguns many tens of thousands of times. I‘d want something that I know with certainty I‘d be able hit a fast moving target the first shot and make quick follow-up shots. I believe a load of TSS in T shot driven at 1,350 or so would be devastating on a leopard, especially with multiple shots delivered, which very few shooters could do with even a double rifle.

When I hunted lion and leopard long ago in Botswana, I brought along my Beretta A302, which is a 2 3/4” 12 gauge sporting a 26” improved cylinder barrel. My rationale was that since I’d fired that gun thousands of times at birds, hitting something moving fast would be instinctive and I could deliver 4 shots in rapid succession just by pulling the trigger. I don’t practice shooting my scoped rifles at fast moving targets and working the bolt to quickly fire additional shots in just a few seconds, nor does anyone else. But I’ve shot that old Beretta approximately 30,000 times since the early 1980’s at birds and I’ll argue that, other than the adrenaline and pucker factor, shooting a fast moving leopard would be a lot like shooting quail. Quick reaction, point and pull the trigger. And keep pulling it as fast as possible.

I expect that 1 1/4 oz (that’s 546 grains) of TSS T shot would spread a bit as it penetrated and it’d penetrate very deeply. With an entry hole measuring nearly .75” and a weight exceeding typical .458 caliber bullets, I don’t think a lack of hydrostatic shock would be an issue.

In closing, I have an acquaintance who shot a mountain lion while turkey hunting, at a distance of about 20 feet, in the front of the chest. The mountain lion was about 130 pounds, similar to that of a typical leopard. He was shooting #6 size lead shot. When I asked the guy who shot the lion how effective the shot was, he told me the cat simply crumpled in a heap at the shot. The game warden who investigated the incident (we do not have a lion season in California despite the highest lion population in USA) is a friend and he told me that since the wad was over 6” deep in the chest, it was clearly self defense. Think about TSS in T or 4 buck and how deep it’d penetrate if the wad goes in 6”.

While I hope to never follow a wounded leopard, if I had to, I know what I’d have in my hands if given a choice, and it wouldn’t be a bolt action rifle of any caliber. It’d be the gun I shoot instinctively and have shot many thousands of fast moving targets with.

 

[juan pablo pozzi]

I strongly believe that shotguns are for experts they are very difficult to use and if you arent a fan of them dont use for defense against 2 or 4 legs critters.To kill a big animal charging,you need to repeat fast at short distance ....pump ,or auto.,thats why many phs get injured .Yes tugsten its ok but waiting and then repeat fast its a must.

 

[HankBuck]

I strongly believe that shotguns are for experts they are very difficult to use and if you arent a fan of them dont use for defense against 2 or 4 legs critters.To kill a big animal charging,you need to repeat fast at short distance ....pump ,or auto.,thats why many phs get injured .Yes tugsten its ok but waiting and then repeat fast its a must.

@juan pablo pozzi: for many,duck hunters or competitive Clays shooters - a shotgun is “2nd nature” and after shooting 10,000s + rounds the “instinct” will kick in —- NOW, whether or not that applies to hitting a charging Leopard/Lion at 10 yards???No idea. I know most could hit a charging “Rabbit or Duck” at 10 yards.
For me (having NEVER faced a charge of Leopard, Lion, or Grizzly)——my choice would be 12 gauge semi auto Benelli w/3” 00 Buck shot {hevi shot or Tungston}…if I fu-k Up, then it was my fault and accept the consequences.