Tungsten buckshot for leopard follow up?

[BeeMaa]

@SAFARIKIDD - I found this website that makes full on starter kits to load your own TSS shells in nearly any configuration you desire. All you would need is a shotshell loader and appropriate powder.

https://www.super18tungstenshot.com/

 

[Daisy]

Still no real advantage over lead when you are talking about distances of less than 10 yards. The reason for using TSS is to extend the range and be able to use smaller pellets (which means more pellets) in the same shell length.

Use TSS for home defense if you like, it will not upset me at all. The marginal performance difference difference between the two at the expected range to target isn't enough for me to warrant the cost.

So all I read here is why be cheap on ammo for a once in a lifetime trip hunting in Africa. Yet when it comes to self defense for your family and life, cost suddenly becomes an issue?

Practice with cheap stuff, and spend 50 dollars TOTAL for 5 great shells to keep in your shotgun for the RARE but real scenario for home defense.

Same for turkey or duck hunting. Practice with cheap stuff and spend 250 dollars on tss for that awesome duck trip to Arkansas.

I haven’t read any of your old posts. But my guess is you would only go to Africa hunting with great premium ammo, even though it probably makes only a small difference over the cheaper stuff.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I wonder how many visiting leopard hunters plan on bringing a rifle and a shot gun? We have never had anyone bring their own shotgun for leopard backup.

Lon

 

[BeeMaa]

So all I read here is why be cheap on ammo for a once in a lifetime trip hunting in Africa. Yet when it comes to self defense for your family and life, cost suddenly becomes an issue?

Practice with cheap stuff, and spend 50 dollars TOTAL for 5 great shells to keep in your shotgun for the RARE but real scenario for home defense.

Same for turkey or duck hunting. Practice with cheap stuff and spend 250 dollars on tss for that awesome duck trip to Arkansas.

I haven’t read any of your old posts. But my guess is you would only go to Africa hunting with great premium ammo, even though it probably makes only a small difference over the cheaper stuff.

Shoot some pattern boards, then some ballistics gel covered in heavy canvas at 10 yards using the same size shot, same payload at the same speed in the same gauge in both lead and TSS. I'd be interested in the results.

Or we could keep this thread on track and further discuss the lunacy of using TSS on leopard.

 

[Daisy]

Shoot some pattern boards, then some ballistics gel covered in heavy canvas at 10 yards using the same size shot, same payload at the same speed in the same gauge in both lead and TSS. I'd be interested in the results.

Or we could keep this thread on track and further discuss the lunacy of using TSS on leopard.

Know I just like to talk about it. I have great respect for you guys on this board. I do much more bird hunting than anything else, it’s why I even chimed in on this thread.

 

[IvW]

Maybe every one is barking up the wrong tree. A charging Leopard can't hurt what it can't see. Possibly a open choke shotgun with number 8 bird shot put squarely in the eyes would take it off it's intended target. Then you can follow up with a shot from a high caliber rifle. Why use one or the other.

Most stupid suggestion I have heard in a long time......

 

[cajunchefray]

Most stupid suggestion I have heard in a long time......

It seems apparent from many writings, of seasoned safari hunters of the past 100 years, hit them with the most powerful rifle, and a rapidly expanding softs as you can accurately place in the kill/ stopping zone.

The PH has the reflexes to make this shot.

I have no interest in a shotgun in that close encounter, I don't care about shot size and TSS pellets.

@IvW's .500 Jeffery with Woodleigh softs seems like a good tool
.
I imagine that will knock the p#ss out of a charging cat. I know it does wild hogs, but not a real comparison. Hogs are not trying to eviscerate you in 2 seconds.

TSS shot in a 12 gauge sounds awesome for ducks and geese down here, when they are flying high.

 

[mikesheree]

The rifle, as with the shotgun, at ten feet will, indeed, make one entrance hole ( although a “rat-eaten“ one from the shotgun). But the terminal(internal) ballistics cannot, necessarily, be equated. Those nine ( or, in some cases, 12) projectiles will not be coaxial/paralell.

 

[mikesheree]

It seems apparent from many writings, of seasoned safari hunters of the past 100 years, hit them with the most powerful rifle, and a rapidly expanding softs as you can accurately place in the kill/ stopping zone.

The PH has the reflexes to make this shot.

I have no interest in a shotgun in that close encounter, I don't care about shot size and TSS pellets.

@IvW's .500 Jeffery with Woodleigh softs seems like a good tool
.
I imagine that will knock the p#ss out of a charging cat. I know it does wild hogs, but not a real comparison. Hogs are not trying to eviscerate you in 2 seconds.

TSS shot in a 12 gauge sounds awesome for ducks and geese down here, when they are flying high.

The animals intentions and actions have no effect on the physics/ballistics and physiology of gun shot wounds. Disruption of the motor neuron tracts doesn’t care how “tough”, aggressive or pissed off ANY biological organism is. Just my view as a hunter and retired forensic pathologist.

 

[DLSJR]

I believe the single biggest factor in what one should have in his hands if following up a wounded leopard is ‘Which gun are you most proficient with under pressure?’ For me individually, that’d make it a 2 3/4” Beretta autoloading shotgun in 12 gauge. While I’ve shot rifles my entire life, I’ve fired shotguns many tens of thousands of times. I‘d want something that I know with certainty I‘d be able hit a fast moving target the first shot and make quick follow-up shots. I believe a load of TSS in T shot driven at 1,350 or so would be devastating on a leopard, especially with multiple shots delivered, which very few shooters could do with even a double rifle.

When I hunted lion and leopard long ago in Botswana, I brought along my Beretta A302, which is a 2 3/4” 12 gauge sporting a 26” improved cylinder barrel. My rationale was that since I’d fired that gun thousands of times at birds, hitting something moving fast would be instinctive and I could deliver 4 shots in rapid succession just by pulling the trigger. I don’t practice shooting my scoped rifles at fast moving targets and working the bolt to quickly fire additional shots in just a few seconds, nor does anyone else. But I’ve shot that old Beretta approximately 30,000 times since the early 1980’s at birds and I’ll argue that, other than the adrenaline and pucker factor, shooting a fast moving leopard would be a lot like shooting quail. Quick reaction, point and pull the trigger. And keep pulling it as fast as possible.

I expect that 1 1/4 oz (that’s 546 grains) of TSS T shot would spread a bit as it penetrated and it’d penetrate very deeply. With an entry hole measuring nearly .75” and a weight exceeding typical .458 caliber bullets, I don’t think a lack of hydrostatic shock would be an issue.

In closing, I have an acquaintance who shot a mountain lion while turkey hunting, at a distance of about 20 feet, in the front of the chest. The mountain lion was about 130 pounds, similar to that of a typical leopard. He was shooting #6 size lead shot. When I asked the guy who shot the lion how effective the shot was, he told me the cat simply crumpled in a heap at the shot. The game warden who investigated the incident (we do not have a lion season in California despite the highest lion population in USA) is a friend and he told me that since the wad was over 6” deep in the chest, it was clearly self defense. Think about TSS in T or 4 buck and how deep it’d penetrate if the wad goes in 6”.

While I hope to never follow a wounded leopard, if I had to, I know what I’d have in my hands if given a choice, and it wouldn’t be a bolt action rifle of any caliber. It’d be the gun I shoot instinctively and have shot many thousands of fast moving targets with.

 

[archer36]

Most stupid suggestion I have heard in a long time......

Why wouldn't it work?

 

[503]

Yea, why wouldn't a round made to break clay pigeons and kill rabbits work on a raged out 200 pound murder cat?.....

 

[dchum]

I saw a Instagram post today from a well known Zim PH and it made me think of this thread.

“suddenly there was a deep grunt and a blur of spots as the cat came in full charge (, he broke from about 18 paces, he was lying to the right of the Broken branch in a slight depression) Dean fired first with his Lot and raked him, I fired my first shot of 00 Buck at 5 paces and it knocked the big cat flat, pellets penetrated the skull in various places and for sure saved my ass !!! Quite unusual that this leopard behaved like a wounded lion ( lot of growling before and during charge”

 

[mikesheree]

Folks, if you want a fact based discussion, let’s talk physics(ballistics essentially), and physiology (neurobiology) . Remove the extraneous bs. I’ve shot them and/or i’ve dissected them. This is not a “sporting” topic or mystery. Significant ballistic research,(internal, external and terminal) has gone on for ages. At the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology we did not have any mysteries left behind as regards bullet wound injury.

Annectdotal info is useful as as a start point of investigation. I really think we pretty much put a boat load of”X” bullets/other projectiles thru , well, you pretty much name it.
Needless to say, we had funds.

Then, I spent sig time playing Quincy on dead meat.

Questions? Dr. Michael R. Sherman MD
MD. Univ. of Illinois 1977
Surgical intern San Diego Naval Hospital 78-79
Board Certified Anatomical and Clinical Pathology 1985
Board certified Forensic pathology 1986
Forensic pathology fellowship Armed Forces institute of Pathology 85-86.
USN S.E. regional M.E. 86-88. (think NASA “problems”).
mikesheree@aol.com

It goes on. If you want to call bs, fine.

Please just remove the emotion and subjectivity around PHYSICAL questions that do not involve emotion, etc.

And, i’m sure i can ear hole that bitch at 150 with my 22 hornet!.(right!)

 

[archer36]

Yea, why wouldn't a round made to break clay pigeons and kill rabbits work on a raged out 200 pound murder cat?.....

You obviously have not read and understood the concept. It clearly states that it is meant to blind the animal and get dispatched with a rifle or slug. If the animal can't see, it can't attack you. Tell some Guides in Alaska that hunt Grizzly Bears that it's a bad idea because some of them use this tactic.

 

[BeeMaa]

You obviously have not read and understood the concept. It clearly states that it is meant to blind the animal and get dispatched with a rifle or slug. If the animal can't see, it can't attack you. Tell some Guides in Alaska that hunt Grizzly Bears that it's a bad idea because some of them use this tactic.

This isn’t Helen Keller we are talking about, it’s a 200 lb charging animal that’s nothing but claws and teeth. Blinding something doesn’t stop the momentum of a charge. If the animal runs into someone, even if it’s blind, that someone will be mauled.

You know what, I’m done. I’m really starting to think that you are trolling. Exactly which guides in AK are using this technique with bears? BS. Enjoy the rest of this thread without me.

 

[archer36]

This isn’t Helen Keller we are talking about, it’s a 200 lb charging animal that’s nothing but claws and teeth. Blinding something doesn’t stop the momentum of a charge. If the animal runs into someone, even if it’s blind, that someone will be mauled.

You know what, I’m done. I’m really starting to think that you are trolling. Exactly which guides in AK are using this technique with bears? BS. Enjoy the rest of this thread without me.

I had enough of this thread too. Lots of opinions is all. A waste of time.

 

[HankBuck]

I believe the single biggest factor in what one should have in his hands if following up a wounded leopard is ‘Which gun are you most proficient with under pressure?’ For me individually, that’d make it a 2 3/4” Beretta autoloading shotgun in 12 gauge. While I’ve shot rifles my entire life, I’ve fired shotguns many tens of thousands of times. I‘d want something that I know with certainty I‘d be able hit a fast moving target the first shot and make quick follow-up shots. I believe a load of TSS in T shot driven at 1,350 or so would be devastating on a leopard, especially with multiple shots delivered, which very few shooters could do with even a double rifle.

When I hunted lion and leopard long ago in Botswana, I brought along my Beretta A302, which is a 2 3/4” 12 gauge sporting a 26” improved cylinder barrel. My rationale was that since I’d fired that gun thousands of times at birds, hitting something moving fast would be instinctive and I could deliver 4 shots in rapid succession just by pulling the trigger. I don’t practice shooting my scoped rifles at fast moving targets and working the bolt to quickly fire additional shots in just a few seconds, nor does anyone else. But I’ve shot that old Beretta approximately 30,000 times since the early 1980’s at birds and I’ll argue that, other than the adrenaline and pucker factor, shooting a fast moving leopard would be a lot like shooting quail. Quick reaction, point and pull the trigger. And keep pulling it as fast as possible.

I expect that 1 1/4 oz (that’s 546 grains) of TSS T shot would spread a bit as it penetrated and it’d penetrate very deeply. With an entry hole measuring nearly .75” and a weight exceeding typical .458 caliber bullets, I don’t think a lack of hydrostatic shock would be an issue.

In closing, I have an acquaintance who shot a mountain lion while turkey hunting, at a distance of about 20 feet, in the front of the chest. The mountain lion was about 130 pounds, similar to that of a typical leopard. He was shooting #6 size lead shot. When I asked the guy who shot the lion how effective the shot was, he told me the cat simply crumpled in a heap at the shot. The game warden who investigated the incident (we do not have a lion season in California despite the highest lion population in USA) is a friend and he told me that since the wad was over 6” deep in the chest, it was clearly self defense. Think about TSS in T or 4 buck and how deep it’d penetrate if the wad goes in 6”.

While I hope to never follow a wounded leopard, if I had to, I know what I’d have in my hands if given a choice, and it wouldn’t be a bolt action rifle of any caliber. It’d be the gun I shoot instinctively and have shot many thousands of fast moving targets with.

While I have No experience with Leopard (only know what I’ve read or learned on this Forum) - I have some with Mountain Lion and many others on this forum might also. The Mountain Lion is Not known for “carrying lead” unlike the Leopard - that seems to have a reputation to be much tougher pound-for-pound. Mountain Lion/Cougar are “easy” to kill {my limited experience & what a few Guides have told me} and at close range (tree’d by hounds) - .223 & up or .357 mag handgun and up work. Guides seem to prefer .243 rifle & up or .44 mag for Clients to use but one pair of guides in Idaho told me they’ve seen .223 used and very effective. Note - these are NOT stopping a charge and these are putting bullets in the vitals.....but they are reflective of “close shots” - 10 to 20 yrds. These Guides see 8 - 10 cats killed a year and for many years. I asked about using a .223 on my hunt but they requested a .243 or larger, my handgun in .357 w/hardcast 180 gr bullets was OK “if” we get close opportunity (under the tree). Guides usually want the Cat to hit the ground dead so that the dogs don’t get torn up and a cat can do lots of damage to a pack of hounds in 30 seconds -even though they are looking to “get away” - unlike Leopard that seem to be looking to “Get You”. I would take the advice of my PH or someone that has been in on many wounded Leopards as to what-gun/load-to use. On “paper” TSS looks great and my “guess” would be it would work well — I’m also more confident I could hit a charging Leopard with a shotgun then a rifle (I assume hitting is important) but I’ve got to defer to a PH and let someone else “experiment”...

 

[HankBuck]

You obviously have not read and understood the concept. It clearly states that it is meant to blind the animal and get dispatched with a rifle or slug. If the animal can't see, it can't attack you. Tell some Guides in Alaska that hunt Grizzly Bears that it's a bad idea because some of them use this tactic.

Is this kidding - just a little bit? I’m sure what you are writing is “possible” but I’m interested is what Guide has a “two part solution” to killing a wounded Grizzly (first shoot the eyes out & then finish with rifle?). How would you even know that you blinded “both” eyes - that’s hitting two “marbles” being thrown at you, even then bear still has His sense of Smell & hearing to easily locate you. Seems like an interesting Theory but would need to hear of a few accounts of it actually being employed....plus - I’m Not hunting with that Guide EVER !

 

[HankBuck]

W

I had enough of this thread too. Lots of opinions is all. A waste of time.

Well, I think respectful discourse is ok and although few seem to share your opinion - it is “possible”. I think the real disagreement is that any person would follow a wounded Griz with the “Plan” to pepper the Eyes with bird shot and “then” finish with a rifle. Now, If I was bird hunting and was charged by a Griz - Yes I’d try to face shoot it —- to stop the charge....because I don’t have any better options