Tungsten buckshot for leopard follow up?

[HankBuck]

Bit of a detour...but what is the hornady nickel plated buckshot like?....bought a box but can't remember what written on box as to which one it is....can't check as it's back at ranch....

I’ve used it on deer as well as Winchester copper plated - No performance difference vs regular lead assuming same pellet size & velosity.....but the pellets look pretty. I think buckshot is buckshot - lead is lead - only significant difference is when Tungston or Hevishot pellets are used and they do penetrate much better. Inside of 20 yards they all work but farther then that and lead buckshot is less consistent...after 40 yards NONE can be relied upon for deer. I was hired by a farmer to do “deer control” on a State issued Depredation Permit (his corn crops were sustaining heavy damage). Shot 20-40 deer each Summer & early Fall on his 70 acre farm - year after year and it ONLY Shotguns were allowed by the State. Used 12ga 000 buckshot the first 2 years then switched to Slug gun. Inside of 20 yrds the 000 buck was impressive (knocked deer off their feet) but inconsistent over 30 yrds (killed them but they often ran off). The scoped slug gun was very reliable out to 100 -110 yrds.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’ve used it on deer as well as Winchester copper plated - No performance difference vs regular lead assuming same pellet size & velosity.....but the pellets look pretty. I think buckshot is buckshot - lead is lead - only significant difference is when Tungston or Hevishot pellets are used and they do penetrate much better. Inside of 20 yards they all work but farther then that and lead buckshot is less consistent...after 40 yards NONE can be relied upon for deer. I was hired by a farmer to do “deer control” on a State issued Depredation Permit (his corn crops were sustaining heavy damage). Shot 20-40 deer each Summer & early Fall on his 70 acre farm - year after year and it ONLY Shotguns were allowed by the State. Used 12ga 000 buckshot the first 2 years then switched to Slug gun. Inside of 20 yrds the 000 buck was impressive (knocked deer off their feet) but inconsistent over 30 yrds (killed them but they often ran off). The scoped slug gun was very reliable out to 100 -110 yrds.

Were you using Remington or Federal 000 Buck ? And what choke ?

 

[HankBuck]

Maybe every one is barking up the wrong tree. A charging Leopard can't hurt what it can't see. Possibly a open choke shotgun with number 8 bird shot put squarely in the eyes would take it off it's intended target. Then you can follow up with a shot from a high caliber rifle. Why use one or the other.

Gotta be kidding? I get the “logic” but can’t imagine this could be a realistic way to finish off a wounded leopard.

Were you using Remington or Federal 000 Buck ? And what choke ?

I started using a Mossberg 835 12ga with Mossberg mod & full choke tubes. Then switched to a “patternmaster” choke tube in Full. None of these chokes gave consistent tight patterns using Winchester 3” 000 buck but the patterns were decent. After 30 yrds - all patterns were spread over 24” but I could count on at least 3-4 pellets inside of 15” - which is “enough” but not going to knock a deer down (unless head/neck/spine hit).
At 25 yrds or closer almost all deer (shot broadside or frontal) were knocked off their feet. I also shot many deer on the run (like jump shooting rabbits) while walking thru standing corn, used a Browning 12 ga O/U and skeet or IC chokes and Remington 12 ga #1 buck (2 3/4” 16 pellets). This was effective 15-25 yrds “if” centered the pattern on a running broadside shot.
Penetration was Never impressive - even with 000 unless under 30 yrds. No pellet ever “exited” other side but on a broadside shot - many pellets would lodge just under the hide on far side. I did have some deer shot with 12 ga Hevishot 00 (2 3/4” with 9 pellets). Penetration was better-deeper, knock down power seemed similar. Did not shot enough to determine if they were more effective over 30 yrds and did Not pattern test (too expensive). Learned a lot in 5-7 years of doing this and shot well over 100 deer with shotgun & slug gun - except for very close shots (25 yrds or less) I would ALWAYS prefer a slug gun - much more consistent, one big hole that often exits, deer run 50-100 yrds and easily recovered.

 

[HankBuck]

Gotta be kidding? I get the “logic” but can’t imagine this could be a realistic way to finish off a wounded leopard.

I started using a Mossberg 835 12ga with Mossberg mod & full choke tubes. Then switched to a “patternmaster” choke tube in Full. None of these chokes gave consistent tight patterns using Winchester 3” 000 buck but the patterns were decent. After 30 yrds - all patterns were spread over 24” but I could count on at least 3-4 pellets inside of 15” - which is “enough” but not going to knock a deer down (unless head/neck/spine hit).
At 25 yrds or closer almost all deer (shot broadside or frontal) were knocked off their feet. I also shot many deer on the run (like jump shooting rabbits) while walking thru standing corn, used a Browning 12 ga O/U and skeet or IC chokes and Remington 12 ga #1 buck (2 3/4” 16 pellets). This was effective 15-25 yrds “if” centered the pattern on a running broadside shot.
Penetration was Never impressive - even with 000 unless under 30 yrds. No pellet ever “exited” other side but on a broadside shot - many pellets would lodge just under the hide on far side. I did have some deer shot with 12 ga Hevishot 00 (2 3/4” with 9 pellets). Penetration was better-deeper, knock down power seemed similar. Did not shot enough to determine if they were more effective over 30 yrds and did Not pattern test (too expensive). Learned a lot in 5-7 years of doing this and shot well over 100 deer with shotgun & slug gun - except for very close shots (25 yrds or less) I would ALWAYS prefer a slug gun - much more consistent, one big hole that often exits, deer run 50-100 yrds and easily recovered.

Used mostly Winchester 3” 000, some Federal & Remington in 00 and for running/jumpshooting with 12ga O/U Remington 2 3/4” #1 buck. Don’t think there is any difference in actual killing effectiveness between brands of ammo — they all work. If I were to improve effectiveness - extensive testing on a pattern board with different chokes would make the most sense.

 

[Daisy]

What a fun conversation.

There is zero doubt that you have a better chance to hit a closing lion or leopard with a shotgun than a rifle. People gravitate to what they know, and it seems for last 30-40 years PH’s have been trained on rifles only.

I bird hunt 8-10 times a year. A flying quail at 10-20 yards is easily hit with a shotgun. No one would use a rifle. A .375 caliber had exactly that at impact, 1/3 of an inch area. A shotgun at same range has 1-2 feet of spread. Even at 5 yards a 4 inch spread is orders of magnitude greater size than .375. Also, shotguns are designed for swinging shots and fast target acquisition. Someone mentioned a red dot on their trusty rifle. The same red dot can be fitted on a shotgun, and are at all times.

Now to knockdown power. To me this is more debatable. I would never trust lead on a charging dg animal. Steel is somewhat different, and Tungsten is a game changer. Remember real world data takes years and years to establish. But the scientific ballistic data is there now. It is similar to switch to monometal bullets in rifles. Now tungsten is the copper Barnes bullet of rifles. The change took a while, but “most” would agree a Barnes ttsx is better than the older leaf core and solids, and many don’t even load solids anymore.

The next step is the monometal fragmenting bullets with penetrating shank (hammer and CEB). The data is clear that they work better, and it is just taking time for the real world data to catch up. Can’t really do a 50 vs 50 study on Cape buffalo. It takes 100 hunters going on hunts and comparing for 10 years to convince some people. And that is a good thing.

Based on ballistic data I think a 12 gauge shotgun with tungsten pellets would be devastating and more accurate for close range dg encounters. It will just take young PH willing to follow the data and prove it over time. Good IMO.

My field is medicine and this argument is very applicable. Young doctors come out of training with spit and vinegar and all the new data. But they don’t know shit about real patient care. The flip side is old docs have been doing it for years with good results, but often don’t switch to newer tech because “what I’ve been doing for years has worked great.” IMO, there is a sweet spot of the 40-55 year old doc that is close enough to the new tech, but had enough real world experience to give the best outcomes. This situation reminds me of a lot of the debates here.

Just my two cents.

 

[Foxi]

I’ve used it on deer as well as Winchester copper plated - No performance difference vs regular lead assuming same pellet size & velosity.....but the pellets look pretty. I think buckshot is buckshot - lead is lead - only significant difference is when Tungston or Hevishot pellets are used and they do penetrate much better. Inside of 20 yards they all work but farther then that and lead buckshot is less consistent...after 40 yards NONE can be relied upon for deer. I was hired by a farmer to do “deer control” on a State issued Depredation Permit (his corn crops were sustaining heavy damage). Shot 20-40 deer each Summer & early Fall on his 70 acre farm - year after year and it ONLY Shotguns were allowed by the State. Used 12ga 000 buckshot the first 2 years then switched to Slug gun. Inside of 20 yrds the 000 buck was impressive (knocked deer off their feet) but inconsistent over 30 yrds (killed them but they often ran off). The scoped slug gun was very reliable out to 100 -110 yrds.

You can sure use a shotgun with 4 mm up to 20 yards.
The Swiss shoot their roes with it (and the Swedes too) up to 30m.
However, strong roe have a live weight of around 25-30 KG.
So they are smaller than your whitetail.
But Im sure at that distance its never a problem.
I know not so less wild pigs killed by 3-4 mm(shouldershots)
But when they are come in front.........
No one of our PH use buckshot in thick cover,only bullets.

Last autumn at the Save a PH from HHK (10 outfits in Zimb) told me about a hunt for a wounded leopard.
2 shotguns with 00 (lead) could not kill it. Only when shot by a bullet did he give up.
He and some colleagues never try buckshot again.
It doesn't matter what kind of material.

What kind of scope do you use on your slug shotgun?

 

[HankBuck]

You can sure use a shotgun with 4 mm up to 20 yards.
The Swiss shoot their roes with it (and the Swedes too) up to 30m.
However, strong roe have a live weight of around 25-30 KG.
So they are smaller than your whitetail.
But Im sure at that distance its never a problem.
I know not so less wild pigs killed by 3-4 mm(shouldershots)
But when they are come in front.........
No one of our PH use buckshot in thick cover,only bullets.

Last autumn at the Save a PH from HHK (10 outfits in Zimb) told me about a hunt for a wounded leopard.
2 shotguns with 00 (lead) could not kill it. Only when shot by a bullet did he give up.
He and some colleagues never try buckshot again.
It doesn't matter what kind of material.

What kind of scope do you use on your slug shotgun?

For me, I always used a Bushnell 1.5x to 4x power scope on my Browning 12ga Bolt action slug gun for “deer control”. Then I later changed the scope to a Leopold VII 2x to 7x power scope for “hunting deer”. Most of the time either scope was set on “3 or 4 power”. Very rarely was I ever able to get off a 2nd shot, working the bolt action took too much time to get off a 2nd shot - unless I missed clean and the deer “stopped” long enough to get a 2nd chance. For the most part, the much cheaper costing Single Shot slug guns were just as accurate or more and could almost be reloaded “as fast” as working a bolt action...of course I was a Lefty operating a right handed bolt action.

 

[Daisy]

My buddy just sent me this Drillinf pic. Then we all could be right!

 

[HankBuck]

My buddy just sent me this Drillinf pic. Then we all could be right!
View attachment 550652

Does that scope only have one anchor point? Photo only shows one point of contact with the gun? If so, can’t imagine that scope would hold zero

 

[Daisy]

Does that scope only have one anchor point? Photo only shows one point of contact with the gun? If so, can’t imagine that scope would hold zero

 

[Daisy]

 

[BeeMaa]

Agree, tried 3 1/2 turkey loads “once” - recoil was ridiculous and “pointless” because they don’t kill any further then 3” or likely even 2 3/4” (choke/pattern/shot size much more important)...but the 3 1/2” shell development was Marketing Genius and convinced an entire generation of Hunters they “needed” a 3 1/2” load to kill Geese/ducks/turkeys AND had to buy a New shotgun that could use that length shell (wish I though of that). The requirement for Steel Shot opened the door for the creation of 3 1/2” shells and “maybe” they have a marginal performance advantage vs Steel in shorter shells (I doubt it). But for lead - No reason. The greatest advancement in shotgun shells for extended range is the use of Tungston; Hevishot etc...that does make a difference and can add 10-15 yrds IMO.
But 3 1/2” shells only excel at loosening my teeth ! (Just my opinion and based on my experience and general closed minded thinking and know-it-all-attitude!!!)

The Federal TSS Turkey loads I use are 3.5" shells and have 2 1/4" of #7 shot. If you move down to the 3" shell they only have 1 3/4 oz of #7 shot.

#7 TSS has 220 pellets per ounce so that means the 3.5" shell has 495 pellets, while the 3" shell has 385. That's over a 20% gain in the number of pellets. There's no way to make up for the pellets you don't have with a 3" shell. So, in fact they do kill further because there are simply more pellets to do so.

I have also personally seen turkeys get absolutely pole axed at distances of 50 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to take shots out beyond 60 yards when my patterns are like this...

Now - would I recommend TSS for following up on a wounded leopard? No, I'm not a PH and am in no position to make any such recommendations. However, I would recommend that a client practices with his rifle in low light (or no light) conditions until they are confident in making a proper first shot or they don't take one at all. In the event of a wounded leopard...listen to the PH and do EXACTLY as you are told. It's your hunt, but your PH is in charge of the safety of the entire hunting party. He will use whatever firearm he wishes and I'll be happy to keep my mouth shut and let him do his job.

 

[HankBuck]

The Federal TSS Turkey loads I use are 3.5" shells and have 2 1/4" of #7 shot. If you move down to the 3" shell they only have 1 3/4 oz of #7 shot.

#7 TSS has 220 pellets per ounce so that means the 3.5" shell has 495 pellets, while the 3" shell has 385. That's over a 20% gain in the number of pellets. There's no way to make up for the pellets you don't have with a 3" shell. So, in fact they do kill further because there are simply more pellets to do so.

I have also personally seen turkeys get absolutely pole axed at distances of 50 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to take shots out beyond 60 yards when my patterns are like this...
View attachment 550665
View attachment 550664


Now - would I recommend TSS for following up on a wounded leopard? No, I'm not a PH and am in no position to make any such recommendations. However, I would recommend that a client practices with his rifle in low light (or no light) conditions until they are confident in making a proper first shot or they don't take one at all. In the event of a wounded leopard...listen to the PH and do EXACTLY as you are told. It's your hunt, but your PH is in charge of the safety of the entire hunting party. He will use whatever firearm he wishes and I'll be happy to keep my mouth shut and let him do his job.

BeeMaa, OK, I get your point and wouldn’t argue your ballistics or theory — on “paper” you make perfect sense and maybe in the field too....so let’s have some “fun” with this: If I’m going to go with a clearly superior “dence” shot that holds a tighter pattern and penetrates deeper at longer ranges AND can use smaller shot size/more pellets - Why wouldn’t I take full advantage of that and shoot a 1- 1 1/4oz load out of a 2 3/4” shell (keep most of my teeth) and still kill turkeys well out to 50 yrds.? I’ve used 3” Lead #4s (or #2s where legal) 1 5/8 oz & 1 7/8oz. Loads and have killed turkey cleanly at 45 & 50 lazer range finder yards thru my IM choke in my SBE. Now for the past 12-15 years use older (discontinued) Remington WingMaster Hevishot and have taken gobblers at 57 & 58 yrds. Pellets broke wing bone and penetrated to opposite side or bird chest, usually had 8-10 pellets recovered (these weren’t lucky head/neck shots). I am carefull Not to shoot any gobbler inside of 35 yrds because of excessive damage - forces me to head shoot and that’s risky “if they move”. No one needs 100+ pellets in a bird to kill it, 10-20 is plenty “center bird” with big shot or slightly smaller Hevi type shot. I’m sure your load might kill cleanly out to 70 yrds and maybe further, so if that’s true - Your load is better...as a Bazooka is better for deer then a .30-06. There is a lot of “advertising & marketing” behind these loads - how else can a Hunter justify spending $12-$15 PER SHELL for turkey/geese??

By the way - those are impressive patterns you show on those targets...but nobody wants to have Thanksgiving at your house ! (Kidding you a bit - and I’m no expert)..

 

[BeeMaa]

@HankBuck - Check out these threads on TSS. One is specifically on TSS, the other is a goose hunt I did from last year. The top one is a better one for the discussion we are having, because we aren't really talking about using buckshot on leopard.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/tss-ammo-is-it-worth-it.66788/

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/usa-early-season-fall-goose-hunt-in-ny.70719/

 

[HankBuck]

@HankBuck - Check out these threads on TSS. One is specifically on TSS, the other is a goose hunt I did from last year. The top one is a better one for the discussion we are having, because we aren't really talking about using buckshot on leopard.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/tss-ammo-is-it-worth-it.66788/

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/usa-early-season-fall-goose-hunt-in-ny.70719/

I did - just read them and replied to you from one of your older threads with a Looong post

 

[SAFARIKIDD]

So who loads commercially TSS in Large Shot sizes like T or Buckshot (#4 #1 00 000) ? I think that my Benelli SBE & M2 would do the trick in 3" or 3.5" TSS Loads...I have different barrels in 18" 21" 24" & 28" (Plus Rifled Slug Barrel for Magnum Crush Brenneke-666grains at 1500fps for 3800ft Pounds!)
But for Hogs here in the South I think the large TSS stuff would be interesting/devastating esp after reading the many post above!
(Got a neat 12ga 3" Double too with 23" Cyl Bore .724 with quarter Rib milled in and sights)
So back to my question who is loading TSS in big sizes?

Benelli M2 18"Red Dot.. Double 23" Quarter Ribbed ..SBE 18" Scoped

 

[Flewis]

Nice rigs.

 

[BeeMaa]

So who loads commercially TSS in Large Shot sizes like T or Buckshot (#4 #1 00 000) ? I think that my Benelli SBE & M2 would do the trick in 3" or 3.5" TSS Loads...I have different barrels in 18" 21" 24" & 28" (Plus Rifled Slug Barrel for Magnum Crush Brenneke-666grains at 1500fps for 3800ft Pounds!)
But for Hogs here in the South I think the large TSS stuff would be interesting/devastating esp after reading the many post above!
(Got a neat 12ga 3" Double too with 23" Cyl Bore .724 with quarter Rib milled in and sights)
So back to my question who is loading TSS in big sizes?

Benelli M2 18"Red Dot.. Double 23" Quarter Ribbed ..SBE 18" ScopedView attachment 550914View attachment 550915View attachment 550916

Apex makes predator loads, but the largest is BB.
Salt Creek Custom Ammo makes it in T shot.

There are a lot of things to consider when using TSS for home defense.

First of all, there is no (current) ban on using lead to stop bad guys in your home. Feel free to pepper them up with some 00 Buck and if they don't die of the wounds immediately, you can hope it will be of lead poisoning.

Second is the cost. 5 shells of TSS can go for $45 to $70 and up from there. If you reloaded, you could mitigate some of this. 250 rounds of good quality 2 3/4" 00 Buck is around $150. That's a huge disparity, especially considering that one should be practicing with your home defense shotgun on a regular basis. $9/shell for TSS vs 60¢/shell for lead makes this an easy choice for me.

There are enough "experts" out there making YT videos about penetration of TSS vs lead, so I'm not going to get into it. What I will say is there are just too many variables to do a true comparison that is apples to apples.

Would I trust my life and the lives of my family to TSS T shot? Yes I would. However/ I believe there are better options using lead. Mostly stemming from the price.

 

[Daisy]

Apex makes predator loads, but the largest is BB.
Salt Creek Custom Ammo makes it in T shot.

There are a lot of things to consider when using TSS for home defense.

First of all, there is no (current) ban on using lead to stop bad guys in your home. Feel free to pepper them up with some 00 Buck and if they don't die of the wounds immediately, you can hope it will be of lead poisoning.

Second is the cost. 5 shells of TSS can go for $45 to $70 and up from there. If you reloaded, you could mitigate some of this. 250 rounds of good quality 2 3/4" 00 Buck is around $150. That's a huge disparity, especially considering that one should be practicing with your home defense shotgun on a regular basis. $9/shell for TSS vs 60¢/shell for lead makes this an easy choice for me.

There are enough "experts" out there making YT videos about penetration of TSS vs lead, so I'm not going to get into it. What I will say is there are just too many variables to do a true comparison that is apples to apples.

Would I trust my life and the lives of my family to TSS T shot? Yes I would. However/ I believe there are better options using lead. Mostly stemming from the price.

Even more so than with rifles, buy all the lead buckshot you want and practice practice practice.

Then keep the shotgun loaded with 5 rounds of TSS for self defense, or when you shoot that one turkey a year.

That is an easy one. We aren’t talking about rifles and point of impact. Practice with whatever you want with a shotgun then shoot the good stuff when it matters.

 

[BeeMaa]

Even more so than with rifles, buy all the lead buckshot you want and practice practice practice.

Then keep the shotgun loaded with 5 rounds of TSS for self defense, or when you shoot that one turkey a year.

That is an easy one. We aren’t talking about rifles and point of impact. Practice with whatever you want with a shotgun then shoot the good stuff when it matters.

Still no real advantage over lead when you are talking about distances of less than 10 yards. The reason for using TSS is to extend the range and be able to use smaller pellets (which means more pellets) in the same shell length.

Use TSS for home defense if you like, it will not upset me at all. The marginal performance difference difference between the two at the expected range to target isn't enough for me to warrant the cost.