Trophy Debate

[siml]

I don't know Warren, didn't even know he was the landowner. But that is no way a 5 year old bull, the first 2 years is the fastest growth in a kudu's life, roughly 30 inches, then the growth begins to slow to roughly 4-6 inches a year, the older he get the slower the growth. Krud, I used the graph from text book just to help explain, but general knowledge tells me it's correct. Warren, I got no gripes with you.

Since I first made the comment about the kudu on Dobbers report, I have wondered should I have rather just shut up? Probably would have been best for me. Would it be best for the kudu.....no!

I don't care what some have had to say.....if by posting my comment I have shown one hunter the difference between shooting an immature kudu and a mature bull, then I am happy.

 

[enysse]

I stand with Simon in a lot of ways, I'm not picking on Loodt or any outfitter for that matter. I'm intelligent enough to know, right and wrong. Dobbler did nothing wrong. I think, I have learned through the years, patience is required in hunting. Sometimes you have to earn something....it make take years of trial and errors. What I'm trying to say, the immature animal mostly likely would have been a fine trophy down the line, if given time to grow to maturity. It was harvested before it had time to express its full genetic potential.

I think that is why I hate deer hunting here in the states, people are proud of killing anything over a 3 inch spike, just because it was legal and they could shoot it. Yes, it's meat on the table and it was legal.....and by passing on the animal, the next person could have shot it dead too. But if we never let anything become mature....in my books at least 2.5 years old....it would be dreamy to achieve 3.5 years old, but come on we have to be realistic.
When we harvest something before it's mature, we made a wildlife conservation statement. Some people don't understand that, but I do. Here in the state we shoot a lot of immature deer, it legal and fine. And when people are drinking at the bar and asking where all the big buck are....I quietly think in my mind, how can there be mature deer, when you harvest them before they are even 18 months old.

If you want a nice whitetail, they have to let them grow old first. And if you want a nice kudu, they first have to be mature....then you have to be patient and shoot straight.

I just matured as hunter, I shoot an old animal or nothing. If this post opens a can of worms...go ahead and post away. I shoot does for meat but my finger never touches the trigger of a immature buck. And I think kids can shoot whatever is legal.

 

[gizmo]

@enysse i feel you are spot on. I might add and not meaning to be critical but a whitetail deer isn't "considered" mature until 5 1/2 years old. A mule deer at 6 1/2. Speaking for the peak of maturity. This is what the state biologist tells me anyway and the way she set up my management plan. We use 1/2 years here in the panhandle as our whitetail fawns are born late May to early June and Muleys late June to early July. I've seen as late as late August on Muleys as their rut is a month to two months behind the whitetail. We send in and have all of our jaw bones from buck deer analyzed after they are killed. It's pretty cool because you can age a deer from the jaw bone pretty damn close. If deer management interests you holler at me I have a ton of literature on it if you would like some. Sorry wasn't trying to get off topic but I love deer and can jabber all day about them.

 

[enysse]

gizmo...believe it or not, I went to college at the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point to be a wildlife biologist. I grew up on a farm and knew nothing about the rest of the world...but after 6 months at UWSP, I realized my dream was not realistic and moved onto something else that paid the bills better. I still love wildlife research, I just know very few people that can make a living being a wildlife biologist.

In my next of the woods if a deer is 3.5 years old, you just one the lottery and need to shoot now or forever hold your piece of sanity. I have not seen a 2.5 year old deer in years where I use to hunt. That's why when my brother leased his farm out to make more money ....I was ok with it. There is some sarcasm in the that statement....because my parent's sold it to him for a song and dance, but that's another story too. Oh well....time to move on.

 

[gizmo]

Bro I completely understand, I tried to get my wildlife biology degree also but had to change to business for the same reason. I feel your frustration on the deer though. I damn near stroke out every year at the local gas station when truck after truck pull up with bucks that look like they were shot off their moms nipple. Fortunately we have a enough deer it offsets some of this and I am surrounded by huge ranches that have the same management plan I do. 10 miles south of me you couldn't find a mature buck if your life depended on it.

 

[boldo 42]

At the end of the day dobber , as long as your happy with how things went that's all that counts. Not everyone wants a world record head , the trophy is in the hunt itself.

 

[Big5]

At the end of my day any criticism levied here isn't about Dobber. Dobber was in an unfamiliar hunting situation and he dropped an animal that will forever be a wonderful hunting memory and therefore a trophy. For that I congratulate him.

However, Dobber was with a PH/guide who was overseeing the hunt. That PH/guide certainly must have scrutinized the animal before clearing his client to shoot. Upon clearing the shot the client's aim was straight and he dropped the animal. Certainly there can be no criticism of the client in such a situation. He did his part.

Therefore, at the end of my day any criticism I might have would be about a PH/guide/hunt overseer who allowed a client to harvest what is obviously an immature animal.

So at the end of my day it's not about 'inches' and it's not about "a world record head" as stated in the previous post. It's about harvesting mature animals and a PH/guide/hunt overseer should recognize that.

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

[dobber]

I agree that a mature animal would have been much better for pictures, for the genetics for all the reasons posted, but based on a PM i got just proved that this is a little more personal towards the outfitter than anything else, and if not then i see no reason for the content of the PM

I understand about taking mature animals, i practice this on my property, i try for nothing less than a 5.5yr old, but a hunter who has never shot a deer can take whatever animal they like. On a property where hunting pressure is low, or managed then taking some sub mature animals won't do any harm, in fact based on studies it may help the herd (not saying i agree or disagree with any studies, too many to pick from). If you overhunt a property then i agree, antler restrictions, size restrictions need to be placed.

 

[thi9elsp]

Well, I found this thread and got totally pulled into reading the entire postings straight through. It appears that the discussion boils down to this:

Was the kudu killed one that the PH and Hunter should have shot?

My perspective and personal experience:

1) I would use the term young, not immature. Immature infers selective breeding and management of a domestic animal. If we are talking about a wild animal, it is young vs. old.
2) I don't think any other predator would care about whether the kudu it killed was young or old. Just that the kudu gave it the meal it needed.
3) We all hunt for different degrees of the following reasons: get out of the office (where I am now), experience a new country, have an opportunity to shoot an animal, and killing an animal

My two best experiences were shooting young animals. My first whitetail with my brother Scott. It had an injured leg, so it was a weird 2 x 3 - probably scored all of 40 inches. But remembering the experience with him is what that memory is all about. The second animal was my first elk. Hunting with my brother Tim in the wilderness outside of Yellowstone. We hunted hard for 6 days, got on older elk multiple times, but could never get it done. On our last morning as we walked back to camp we came across a young 6x6. Tim told me he was young but it was my last chance. I had no idea if I would ever hunt elk again. I shot it and his antlers are on the wall behind me.

I've since taken 140" whitetail, a 348" elk, and a 50" kudu. But the two above give me the most enjoyment when thinking about the hunting experience.

I've not looked at the picture nor read Dobber's report. But, my perspective is, if the team of the PH and Hunter decided to shoot this kudu, then that is fine. And, congratulations to both for what sounds like a difficult but successful hunt.

John

 

[Big5]

Dobber, I can assure you that I do not know the outfitter or the PH. I don't know about anyone else here, but I certainly have no dog in the fight. I simply voiced an opinion on the topic as I saw it.

Good hunting to you now and always!

 

[shooter]

................ but based on a PM i got just proved that this is a little more personal towards the outfitter than anything else, .................

This is not personal it is a professional question.

Since I started this whole thing by asking a question of the OUTFITTER.
Since they are ultimately responsible for the hunt.

I was genuinely confused as to why a PH would allow a hunter to shoot this particular animal after having passed others as "to small" and having seen/shot at larger Kudu. (Hunters story, not mine)
That is confusing to me.

The fact that the hunter is happy is fine and beside the point. The question is about a duty of care to the client and an industry. Professionalism.
A first time hunter is generally clueless (tired, short of time, ignorant), as every Kudu looks big to them. Relying on the first time hunters judgement is certainly questionable. (Hence the requirement in the law that a client has to have a PH)

Namibia created a policy to protect their hunting industry and also the hunter.
Outfitters can not charge for such a trophy!

Someone going on a "package hunt" being allowed to shoot ANY Kudu he sees?
Why? To keep the hunter happy at any cost? Keep the success statistics up? To "fill the package"?
I have not seen an answer from the Outfitter.

The properties being hunted have abundant Kudu. So, again, why allow a hunter to shoot this animal when there are so many others to choose from?

Still confused.

Perhaps we just differ on what is acceptable to allow a client to do on a hired hunt.

 

[BRICKBURN]

to your opinions, keep them focused on the topic please.

This is fine, not this .

 

[Royal27]

to your opinions, keep them focused on the topic please.

This is fine, not this .

And the good policing continues.

 

[BRICKBURN]

By the way, if you need them. Here are the posting guidelines.

http://www.africahunting.com/help/guidelines

 

[dobber]

Your questions have not been personal towards me, i agree, nor have i taken anything personal in the threads, what i was referring to was a private message
The PH isn't here to represent himself, so asking him to reply won't happen. Also if i hunt Namibia i will keep that in mind, but as i have pointed out previously on my next trip there will be a minimum standard i will hold myself to
I failed the PH and outfitter and entire hunting industry in SA by taking that animal, it wasn't the outfitter who said kill anything, it wasn't the PH that said kill anything, it was me, i failed, i should have done more homework, should have done a lot of things, but to ask for answers from people that weren't there at the time isn't the right thing to do. In this day and age where people don't want to own up to their actions, i am here, i made the choice, i made the shot, i made the PH put the sticks up, it was me.
Think that should help end any confusion there might be, put the blame where it needs to go, squarely on my shoulders, and i have learned a few lessons along the way and thankfully non of them were at the result of illegal activity (least i did that much homework)

cheers

 

[SHOEDOG]

I would like to add my input on the subject.I have hunted Africa exactly once and don't claim to be an expert but I think my experience is pertinent.I am not sure if my experience is the norm but I would like to know other members thoughts.I am not comparing my experience to the orignal poster in any way shape or form,I am more interested in the subject of this thread which is "Trophy Debate".Thank you to Brickburn for moving it.I think it was a smart thing to do.I would not have responded when this was a hunt report,now I consider it a normal subject open for interested parties to comment on in a civil manner.

I just spent 12 days in south Africa and took 5 of 7 animals without too much fuss and actually started thinking that I would run out of animals before I ran out of time.I had just a Kudu left to go and a Warthog which was actually a cull animal which was a gift to my 8 year old son from the PH.

We saw many Kudu and a good number of bulls, we would glass, stalk and spend whatever time needed to determine the trophy quality.My PH would explain what he was doing and the reasons we would back out of an area because the animal wasn't the quality he wanted me to shoot.He never asked my opinion on an animal and frankly would have been surprised if he did considering my experience hunting Kudu which was zero.I paid him to do that for me.We saw bulls with one tip turned in and he told me in 6 months to a year that would be a shooter.When we didn't connect he told me we could switch perhaps to a Nyala I told him I would leave that open but wanted to stick to my original plan.He said I may go home empty handed but I had a feeling we would score.On the sixth day we shot a good bull.

To be honest I thought about saying "hey lets not be so picky"I was ready to shoot a Kudu.So I can't throw any rocks at the original poster.I was in Africa who knows if I will ever make it back?



So my question is how much responsibility falls to the hunter to judge,I assume none and was offered none which was fine to me.I enjoyed not deciding to be honest,no pressure on me, if we shot an animal we were not happy with I knew who to blame.

What have you experienced?
Respectfully,
Shoedog

 

[BRICKBURN]

You are not the only client this has ever happened with.

Dobber, you are a client you did not do anything wrong.

Under the law you are required to follow your PH's instructions. You do not have choice.

No matter what you might like to do, the PH and Outfitter is responsible and is supposed to use Professional judgement in your best interest.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I think this all comes done to professional judgment. As I just finished up my first time hunt and had an amazing time, I feel like I could write a book on the secret to hunting Africa. The problem being is it would be too short. It would go as follows, find a PH you trust. Trust your PH. Shoot straight.

To me this is the root of the cause of the discussion. Dobber found a PH he trusted, he trusted his PH and he shot straight. Great job on a successful hunt. No one is taking that away from him. The biggest question is should have the PH gave the go ahead. All of us have jobs and we take immense pride in the work we do. In my industry when I see or hear something that makes me question ethics obviously I speak up, it is the same here on this thread. The PHs speaking up, in my opinion are not attacking the hunter, but more of less protecting their industry and the animals they care about.

I don't want to cause any hard feelings here, I immensely respect the PHs, outfitters and hunters and I have learned too much and enjoy reading the reports. But as some have pointed out, we as hunters have a duty amongst ourselves to regulate each other, and I think this is a great discussion because we are discussing conservation and management of not only African animals but North American animals as well.

 

[Big5]

. . . No matter what you might like to do, the PH and Outfitter is responsible and is supposed to use Professional judgement in your best interest.

+1

 

[LivingTheDream]

I failed the PH and outfitter and entire hunting industry in SA by taking that animal, it wasn't the outfitter who said kill anything, it wasn't the PH that said kill anything, it was me, i failed, i should have done more homework, should have done a lot of things, but to ask for answers from people that weren't there at the time isn't the right thing to do. In this day and age where people don't want to own up to their actions, i am here, i made the choice, i made the shot, i made the PH put the sticks up, it was me.
cheers

Dobber, please see the quote above, I disagree with you whole heartedly. You killed an animal you are proud of. That is not a failure. You did not fail the industry, SA, or that animal. I disagree that you made choice, the PH has the right to say, no. My PH told me no, he told me there is no way he would let me shoot anything he wouldn't be proud putting on the wall. You did not make the PH put the sticks up. The only thing you should "own" up to you made the shot you were told to take.