One Day...
AH elite
Why the .257 Wby / 100 gr TTSX...
Considering the interest, I will explain the choice I made and the rationale and experience behind it
Allow me first to quickly address the 6.35 mm vs. 6.5 mm issue. Technically, the .257 Wby shoots bullets that are actually .257" in diameter. This is not always the case in the US where the .270 Win actually shoots .277" bullets, the .280 Rem actually shoots .284" bullets, the .30-06 and .300 actually shoots .308" bullets, etc. To convert .257" in mm, one needs to multiply by 25.4 because there are 25.4 mm in 1 inch. .257" x 25.4 = 6.53 mm, therefore, the .257 Wby is a TRUE 6.5 mm. The members who state that the .257 is a 6.35 mm are in error, and Hunting Sailor is entirely right. If the .257 had a .25" bullet it would indeed be .25" x 25.4 = 6.35 mm, but this is not the case...
As to the 6.5 mm bullets sold in the US, they are in fact .264" in diameter, which makes them .264" x 25.4 = 6.70 mm...
1 --- I have had my testosterone filled "He Man" period when I carried "big guns" for everything and the .340 Wby / 250 gr Nosler Partition was my hunt anything/anytime/anywhere load of choice after I moved to the USA. Blame Ross Seyfried for that and see his fateful 1989 Leader of the Pack article that started it all for me https://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-the-338-rum-dead.50336/#post-540868
The .340 Wby is the "hammer of Thor" for sure on game, but on the shooter too, and I finally came to admit that although I practiced enough to master it well under most circumstances, it is a hard caliber to shoot consistently well, and its recoil can hurt if shooting form is less than perfect in a quick shot or a steep uphill shot.
This is a nice Kudu, by shape and size, that I had to run up a steep hill some hundreds of yards to catch before he crested the ridge at the end of the day after tracking him for hours, and the combination of little time to shoot, very steep uphill angle, and exhaustion from literally running uphill made me handle the rifle poorly. The .340 Wby has power to spare but is very unforgiving...
2 --- In my younger hunting years in France starting in the late 1970's I saw a number of sangliers (wild boars), chamois (European mountain goat), red stags, mouflons, etc. well hit but not going down and sometimes lost. Since the commonly poor locals in the French Alps could not afford expensive Hirtenberger or RWS ammo, many shot Remington ammo that was widely available in France in those days, and the Core-Lokt bullet regularly blew apart. That put me on the path of only shooting Nosler Partition, the only premium bullet offered in factory loads starting in the 1980's, specifically in Federal Premium and Weatherby ammo
I then quickly realized that although the NP killed very well, the entire front core typically vanished, causing a weight loss of typically 40%. To penetrate deep with enough mass, I had to shoot a bullet almost twice as heavy to begin with, and I quickly realized that the Nosler Partitions 150 gr .270 Win, 160 gr 7 mm Mag, even the 180 gr .300 Mag, etc. all did their penetrating with a rear core that in all cases weighed less than, or just about, 100 gr.
This .338 250 gr Nosler Partition killed a great Eland, but lost its entire front core and 40% of its mass doing so, and the rear core alone did not have enough momentum to exit, even though it was launched by a .340 Wby at less than 200 yards.
3 --- This all led me to wonder whether for small and medium game shooting a 100 gr bullet that retains 95%+ of its mass could not be a more modern approach. The advantages would be many, including dramatically reduced recoil, which leads to more accurate shooting.
I actually sought feedback from the AH inmates on two threads:
Can plains game A Frames or TSX bullets be 30% lighter? at https://www.africahunting.com/threads/can-plains-game-a-frames-or-tsx-bullets-be-30-lighter.45537/
and .257 Weatherby Magnum on 300 to 500 lbs antelopes - opinions please at https://www.africahunting.com/threa...0-to-500-lbs-antelopes-opinions-please.45286/
4 --- I have come to the conclusion after owning .243, 6 mm Rem, 6,5x54 MS, .270 Win, 7x64, 7x65R, 7 mm Rem Mag, .308, .300 Norma, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby, .338 Win Mag, .340 Wby, 9.3x74 R, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Win, .458 Lott - Lord, what do I forget! - that a lot are duplicative and that a logical progression of calibers is actually extremely simple:
--- .25 caliber for small and medium size plains and mountain game
--- .30 caliber for large size plains game
--- .35 caliber for medium size dangerous game (OK, .375 it is, because of legal minimum)
--- .40 caliber for large size dangerous game
--- .45 caliber for stopping dangerous game
Yes, I could do it all on PG with a .300 Wby / 165 gr TTSX, and I toyed with the .300 Wby / 130 gr TTSX (I had Lance Hendershot load me a few boxes) but as dchamp observes, a .300 Wby recoils 40% more than a .257 Wby / 100 gr, whether it be with slower 165 gr or faster 130 gr slugs. This would have defeated my purpose of a light recoil, flat shooting, hard hitting, "pure pleasure to shoot" rifle (the .257 Wby recoils about the same as the .270 Win: about 14 ft/lbs. in a R8).
So, I looked at the potential .25 / .26 calibers that would shoot fast and flat.
--- The 6.5 Creedmoor was not even considered, it is a great paper puncher but it does not carry enough energy to be a reliable killer at the longer distances people want to use it (Arizona and Africa are filling up fast with horror stories of medium game hit at 600 or 800 yards and lost...). Beside, it is nothing but a glorified 6.5x55 Swede or more modern .260 Rem, great calibers they are, but they never made a reputation for flat and fast shooting (I am a mountain hunter first and foremost).
--- the .25-06 always was and always will be in the run, but could use a little more speed.
--- The .26 Nosler and 6.5-300 Wby certainly deliver in spade, but I was not interested in bridging the .25 to .30 gap with longer and heavier bullets. I have a .300 Wby to shoot 130 or 165 gr slugs...
--- The .257 Wby has a cult following from many very reliable folks, famous or not, and has really built itself a vast and reliable reputation for killing dead-on-the-spot entirely out of its weight class, since it was introduced ... 76 years ago. Layne Simpson summarized it well in his 2011 In Praise Of The .257 Weatherby Magnum article https://www.africahunting.com/threads/257-weatherby-magnum-on-300-to-500-lbs-antelopes-opinions-please.45286/page-3#post-702739
5 --- I decided to test the .257 Wby / 100 gr TTSX, if not scientifically but at least somewhat systematically, on a PG Safari during which I experienced 100% one-shot-kill reliability on 17 animals with it. Technically, I fired 19 times but I doubled on the Roan, which I do not believe was really needed because he was petrified and wobbling, dead on its feet, and I purposely took a first back breaking shot at the Vaal Rhebok because his vitals where behind a rock, and I doubled on him when he stood his two front legs. From 50 lbs. Vaal Rhebok to 500 lbs. Roan, I never recovered one bullet. All exited with quarter-sized holes. See my report at https://www.africahunting.com/threa...even-better-than-last-year.52376/#post-567221
See the shot at the Nyala:
In summary, because I love to hunt Chamois, Mouflon, Mountain Goat, Sheep, Vaal Rhebok, Mountain Reedbok, etc. and would love to hunt one day more sheep in more mountains in more countries, and more mountain game such as the Mountain Nyala, I wanted a rifle/cartridge/bullet that can kill small to medium game with authority at 300 yards, up to 400 yards for follow up shots, that is still a relatively light weight hunting rifle (as opposed to a "sniper" rifle), and that can be shot well easily in uncertain positions under uncertain circumstances. I also wanted easily available quality factory ammo, and I wanted a R8 barrel for it.
Admittedly, as dchamp also noted, there is not much to choose between the .257 Wby and the 6.5x68, and I would probably have bought a 6.5x68 barrel if I were still living in France. But 6.5x68 ammo is about impossible to find in the USA, and even in Africa I suspect that one will find .257 Wby ammo easier than 6.5x68 ammo, although maybe not in formerly German Namibia.
Topped with a Zeiss V4 4-16x50 scope with a bullet drop compensation (BDC) turret calibrated for the 100 gr TTSX factory Wby ammo clocked in my barrel, my .257 Wby R8 is as close to the ideal light/medium open country PG rifle and mountain game rifle as I can think of. And in a pinch, it will flatten 600 lbs. elk or Greater Kudu with a broadside double lungs/hear shot if I happen to cross the next world record while hunting mule deer or reedbuck, although I would mount the .300 Wby barrel for a purposeful large PG hunt to be able to take safely quartering shots with a 165 gr TTSX...
Sorry for another post probably too long
Considering the interest, I will explain the choice I made and the rationale and experience behind it
Allow me first to quickly address the 6.35 mm vs. 6.5 mm issue. Technically, the .257 Wby shoots bullets that are actually .257" in diameter. This is not always the case in the US where the .270 Win actually shoots .277" bullets, the .280 Rem actually shoots .284" bullets, the .30-06 and .300 actually shoots .308" bullets, etc. To convert .257" in mm, one needs to multiply by 25.4 because there are 25.4 mm in 1 inch. .257" x 25.4 = 6.53 mm, therefore, the .257 Wby is a TRUE 6.5 mm. The members who state that the .257 is a 6.35 mm are in error, and Hunting Sailor is entirely right. If the .257 had a .25" bullet it would indeed be .25" x 25.4 = 6.35 mm, but this is not the case...
As to the 6.5 mm bullets sold in the US, they are in fact .264" in diameter, which makes them .264" x 25.4 = 6.70 mm...
1 --- I have had my testosterone filled "He Man" period when I carried "big guns" for everything and the .340 Wby / 250 gr Nosler Partition was my hunt anything/anytime/anywhere load of choice after I moved to the USA. Blame Ross Seyfried for that and see his fateful 1989 Leader of the Pack article that started it all for me https://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-the-338-rum-dead.50336/#post-540868
The .340 Wby is the "hammer of Thor" for sure on game, but on the shooter too, and I finally came to admit that although I practiced enough to master it well under most circumstances, it is a hard caliber to shoot consistently well, and its recoil can hurt if shooting form is less than perfect in a quick shot or a steep uphill shot.
This is a nice Kudu, by shape and size, that I had to run up a steep hill some hundreds of yards to catch before he crested the ridge at the end of the day after tracking him for hours, and the combination of little time to shoot, very steep uphill angle, and exhaustion from literally running uphill made me handle the rifle poorly. The .340 Wby has power to spare but is very unforgiving...
2 --- In my younger hunting years in France starting in the late 1970's I saw a number of sangliers (wild boars), chamois (European mountain goat), red stags, mouflons, etc. well hit but not going down and sometimes lost. Since the commonly poor locals in the French Alps could not afford expensive Hirtenberger or RWS ammo, many shot Remington ammo that was widely available in France in those days, and the Core-Lokt bullet regularly blew apart. That put me on the path of only shooting Nosler Partition, the only premium bullet offered in factory loads starting in the 1980's, specifically in Federal Premium and Weatherby ammo
I then quickly realized that although the NP killed very well, the entire front core typically vanished, causing a weight loss of typically 40%. To penetrate deep with enough mass, I had to shoot a bullet almost twice as heavy to begin with, and I quickly realized that the Nosler Partitions 150 gr .270 Win, 160 gr 7 mm Mag, even the 180 gr .300 Mag, etc. all did their penetrating with a rear core that in all cases weighed less than, or just about, 100 gr.
This .338 250 gr Nosler Partition killed a great Eland, but lost its entire front core and 40% of its mass doing so, and the rear core alone did not have enough momentum to exit, even though it was launched by a .340 Wby at less than 200 yards.
3 --- This all led me to wonder whether for small and medium game shooting a 100 gr bullet that retains 95%+ of its mass could not be a more modern approach. The advantages would be many, including dramatically reduced recoil, which leads to more accurate shooting.
I actually sought feedback from the AH inmates on two threads:
Can plains game A Frames or TSX bullets be 30% lighter? at https://www.africahunting.com/threads/can-plains-game-a-frames-or-tsx-bullets-be-30-lighter.45537/
and .257 Weatherby Magnum on 300 to 500 lbs antelopes - opinions please at https://www.africahunting.com/threa...0-to-500-lbs-antelopes-opinions-please.45286/
4 --- I have come to the conclusion after owning .243, 6 mm Rem, 6,5x54 MS, .270 Win, 7x64, 7x65R, 7 mm Rem Mag, .308, .300 Norma, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby, .338 Win Mag, .340 Wby, 9.3x74 R, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Win, .458 Lott - Lord, what do I forget! - that a lot are duplicative and that a logical progression of calibers is actually extremely simple:
--- .25 caliber for small and medium size plains and mountain game
--- .30 caliber for large size plains game
--- .35 caliber for medium size dangerous game (OK, .375 it is, because of legal minimum)
--- .40 caliber for large size dangerous game
--- .45 caliber for stopping dangerous game
Yes, I could do it all on PG with a .300 Wby / 165 gr TTSX, and I toyed with the .300 Wby / 130 gr TTSX (I had Lance Hendershot load me a few boxes) but as dchamp observes, a .300 Wby recoils 40% more than a .257 Wby / 100 gr, whether it be with slower 165 gr or faster 130 gr slugs. This would have defeated my purpose of a light recoil, flat shooting, hard hitting, "pure pleasure to shoot" rifle (the .257 Wby recoils about the same as the .270 Win: about 14 ft/lbs. in a R8).
So, I looked at the potential .25 / .26 calibers that would shoot fast and flat.
--- The 6.5 Creedmoor was not even considered, it is a great paper puncher but it does not carry enough energy to be a reliable killer at the longer distances people want to use it (Arizona and Africa are filling up fast with horror stories of medium game hit at 600 or 800 yards and lost...). Beside, it is nothing but a glorified 6.5x55 Swede or more modern .260 Rem, great calibers they are, but they never made a reputation for flat and fast shooting (I am a mountain hunter first and foremost).
--- the .25-06 always was and always will be in the run, but could use a little more speed.
--- The .26 Nosler and 6.5-300 Wby certainly deliver in spade, but I was not interested in bridging the .25 to .30 gap with longer and heavier bullets. I have a .300 Wby to shoot 130 or 165 gr slugs...
--- The .257 Wby has a cult following from many very reliable folks, famous or not, and has really built itself a vast and reliable reputation for killing dead-on-the-spot entirely out of its weight class, since it was introduced ... 76 years ago. Layne Simpson summarized it well in his 2011 In Praise Of The .257 Weatherby Magnum article https://www.africahunting.com/threads/257-weatherby-magnum-on-300-to-500-lbs-antelopes-opinions-please.45286/page-3#post-702739
5 --- I decided to test the .257 Wby / 100 gr TTSX, if not scientifically but at least somewhat systematically, on a PG Safari during which I experienced 100% one-shot-kill reliability on 17 animals with it. Technically, I fired 19 times but I doubled on the Roan, which I do not believe was really needed because he was petrified and wobbling, dead on its feet, and I purposely took a first back breaking shot at the Vaal Rhebok because his vitals where behind a rock, and I doubled on him when he stood his two front legs. From 50 lbs. Vaal Rhebok to 500 lbs. Roan, I never recovered one bullet. All exited with quarter-sized holes. See my report at https://www.africahunting.com/threa...even-better-than-last-year.52376/#post-567221
See the shot at the Nyala:
In summary, because I love to hunt Chamois, Mouflon, Mountain Goat, Sheep, Vaal Rhebok, Mountain Reedbok, etc. and would love to hunt one day more sheep in more mountains in more countries, and more mountain game such as the Mountain Nyala, I wanted a rifle/cartridge/bullet that can kill small to medium game with authority at 300 yards, up to 400 yards for follow up shots, that is still a relatively light weight hunting rifle (as opposed to a "sniper" rifle), and that can be shot well easily in uncertain positions under uncertain circumstances. I also wanted easily available quality factory ammo, and I wanted a R8 barrel for it.
Admittedly, as dchamp also noted, there is not much to choose between the .257 Wby and the 6.5x68, and I would probably have bought a 6.5x68 barrel if I were still living in France. But 6.5x68 ammo is about impossible to find in the USA, and even in Africa I suspect that one will find .257 Wby ammo easier than 6.5x68 ammo, although maybe not in formerly German Namibia.
Topped with a Zeiss V4 4-16x50 scope with a bullet drop compensation (BDC) turret calibrated for the 100 gr TTSX factory Wby ammo clocked in my barrel, my .257 Wby R8 is as close to the ideal light/medium open country PG rifle and mountain game rifle as I can think of. And in a pinch, it will flatten 600 lbs. elk or Greater Kudu with a broadside double lungs/hear shot if I happen to cross the next world record while hunting mule deer or reedbuck, although I would mount the .300 Wby barrel for a purposeful large PG hunt to be able to take safely quartering shots with a 165 gr TTSX...
Sorry for another post probably too long
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