Touchy Subject?

[rookhawk]

Now, first off, I don’t want to give anyone any ideas! To be honest I’m a little hesitant to post this.

I was talking with a PH and I was honestly taken aback when he told me this but I am a bit gullible and treat people fairly, just as I expect to be treated. So, as we all know, It is normal for clients to hunt a package or otherwise commit to a pricing schedule prior to the hunt and then add what Africa provides above that and, in doing so, can run up a very large bill. Think groups with a tally totaling 6 figures. Or, sometimes the agreement is for a large number of animals in the first place with no add-ons. Then, when settling the bill, now the haggling starts. They expect that since they are paying so much they deserve a serious discount. Now, my mind just doesn’t work that way; it just seems dishonest. This PH I was talking to said it is fairly common and the debate gets pretty heated at times.

That’s not how I want to bookend my experience.

I guess they feel that the fun is over and they will never see them again so nothing to lose and maybe a little to gain.

Is this as common as I was led to believe? I can’t imagine an outfit capitulating.

Is this common with all outfitters everywhere or just Africa? Would be good to hear from some PH’s. Do any of you anticipate this happening ahead of time?

Personally, I think this practice is in extremely poor taste and I hope I haven’t just exacerbated the problem.

These sorts of things are more common in RSA and other countries with game ranches because of the private ownership of all the game. Cutting both ways, some clients want to upgrade their trophy already shot each day as they see a bigger one, alternatively the PH is nudging the client to shoot everything possible.

It is the above factors that then leads to a very tacky conversation from all parties at the end of the hunt. "Lets make a deal". That can occur from a sleazy client welching on their agreed package, or it can be a tactic of the operator/PH saying "shoot it and we'll figure it out later, or I'll give you a good <not disclosed> price while you're on sticks".

Never had to deal with this because I've never hunted a place where the PH/Operator owned the game. In places like Zim and other similar frontier hunting regions they will tell you before the hunt what they have on quota. They will ask you prior to arrival if you want any or all of their quota species added to your license free of charge. Once on the ground, you either shoot them or you don't, but there isn't an opportunity to shift prices or add animals beyond that because the quota is what it is and the quota is property of the government.

Not saying Zim is better than RSA, I'm just explaining that the negative to RSA especially is the OPs scenario can happen, and in many other places it cannot.

The plus to RSA is its business and conservation model is one of the two best success stories on earth for the restoration of game species. (the other being USA) The RSA business model of private ownership of game is why they have the game they do, that's the plus. The minus is the OPs question which does/can happen there.

 

[DillonG]

You haggle before not after period.

This is the correct way to negotiate or “haggle”. Work out the pricing up front, honor it, and enjoy the adventure. I’ve dealt with too many people in business that want to haggle after product/service is complete.

The correct way to handle this situation is to reference the signed contract.

Don’t be a scumbag. Pay what you owe.

 

[Justbryan]

I cannot stand people trying to use their power (money) and influence to take advantage of others. The very wealthy people I personally know are some of the most generous people on the planet and they do it in secret.

Some of those who negotiate bills and hold outfitters hostage when they owe the money are just playing wealthy and can barely pay their bills. They live in mansions with no curtains!

 

[Doubleplay]

Haggling sends a message: you're quote wasn't your best effort. This reminds me of the one and only time in my

If my outfitter and I expect to be on friendly terms, we won't be haggling. Frankly, I don't give a crap about car dealers or industrial product vendors. That's just business. But my safari is supposed to be pleasure. I want to get away from business. I would like it if my operator and I became friends ... genuine friends.

Your safari is a pleasure for you but definitely business for your outfitter and for them business and pleasure don't mix.
You do whatever you like but don't try to tell me when I'm about to book a an elephant hunt for $40K asking for my wife's observer fees to be included in the package is wrong!
Before I shake hands I'll try to get the best deal I can and after that I'll honor the agreement.
Hunting in Africa is not a popularity contest, it's a business.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Your safari is a pleasure for you but definitely business for your outfitter and for them business and pleasure don't mix.
You do whatever you like but don't try to tell me when I'm about to book a an elephant hunt for $40K asking for my wife's observer fees to be included in the package is wrong!
Before I shake hands I'll try to get the best deal I can and after that I'll honor the agreement.
Hunting in Africa is not a popularity contest, it's a business.

I suspect you don't consider much of your life a popularity contest. That's fine. I try to make my safari a friendly affair. As friendly as possible anyway. Let's be real here: the safari business is mostly show and tell. You know, double rifles, thousand dollar hats, Ruark's bourbon, Hemingway's cigars, etc. Why should being my PH's friend not be part of the show?

I was raised in a small rural Montana community where everyone knew each other. If you wanted to haggle with local businesses, you were not respected. People did business with the hagglers because they had to. But the hagglers were never welcome. Some folks don't mind being unwelcome for a few bucks (cents?). Pretty sad. I'd like to think my safari operator genuinely wants to see me return, not just for the money. Maybe I'm wrong. Hard to tell I guess. But appearances are what safaris are all about.

If you didn't get your wife's observer fees sorted out before you inked the $40K contract, yeah I would say you really shouldn't expect to get that included after the fact. When you signed, did you expect she would be able to tag along for nothing? I've never seen a posted safari outfitter's price list that did not specify observer rates separately from trophy fees and PH's daily rate.

 

[Newboomer]

This is the correct way to negotiate or “haggle”. Work out the pricing up front, honor it, and enjoy the adventure. I’ve dealt with too many people in business that want to haggle after product/service is complete.

The correct way to handle this situation is to reference the signed contract.

Don’t be a scumbag. Pay what you owe.

A signed contract. Those are the key words in any hunt. Everything is spelled out and a contract is signed by both parties before the hunt. It's a business deal like any other. Anyone not getting a contract signed by both parties has no one to blame but himself. Animals taken outside the contract should be negotiated before being taken. Eliminates hidden charges and questions and makes for a much better relationship if you want to hunt with that outfitter again.

On my first safari I had a list of 5 animals I wanted per contract. I ended up taking 5 more. The trophy fee was not questioned by me. I knew what it was before the shot and I agreed to pay it. Because I posed no argument he gave me a break on the extras. Same for my second and third hunts (with the same outfitter). A little consideration goes a long way on both sides.

Example: On my first hunt with that outfitter I wanted a kudu. Because the area we hunted was a breeding/raising ranch for buffalo they didn't want me to use my 375HH. The noise would disturb the buf. So the outfitter lent me his suppressed 243. I questioned the caliber but he said it was what he used for culling. OOKAAY. Anyway, it worked and I got my kudu with one shot. It was the afternoon of the last day and because I had taken extra animals he didn't charge me for the rifle and ammo.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have not seen specifically what you describe, but I imagine as another client, I probably wouldn't since most people settle their bills individually with outfitters.

However, I have often seen where people who were very happy joyous people for the entire trip, suddenly have a mood shift at the end of the hunt when the bill was looming and they had added on a lot of extras. When the party is coming to an end and reality starts setting in about how much extra you spent, people sometimes have regrets and it can cause a nasty mood shift.

Ah yes. The compulsive shopper. African safari is no place for folks with that disease. And when the infection finally hits home and the bill has to be paid, they always want to shoot the wrong messenger. It's the PH's fault ... or the auctioneer. Can't pass up that deal of a lifetime! Don't be afraid to say no. The outfitter knows my limit. And he now knows just how far I may step over the line (not far). So the extra animals offered are typically extra good deals. Someone above already mentioned hunting late in the season can snag some very good prices ... without haggling. Time for property managers to get rid of old blood that the season's hunters didn't harvest.

I can't recall a first time safari hunter who wasn't convinced before leaving that he would be coming back. For me it was for certain by day two. So save the unexpected "trophy of a lifetime" for the next safari ... or the next. If you take four out of five animals quickly, take your time with #5. If you fill your tags, go culling. Can't get any better bang for the buck! Stick to the agenda that YOU'VE budgeted. Some PHs really love to hunt. Like my first guy. Gad, he could get excited! Sometimes they just want that extra special animal in the salt at the lodge. It's up to YOU to say no. "Sorry, maybe next trip." If you say yes, don't get sore when the bill comes due.

 

[rookhawk]

Reading this thread has literally jogged cobwebs loose in my mind from more than a decade ago. I haven't signed a contract or wired a deposit in more than a decade. The word of my operators is gold, and my word is gold when I say I'm coming. Cash is paid on the spot and a handshake is what occurs at the end.

Such relationships are earned through time together and mutual respect. The fastest way to de-risk your life is to find a great operator and PH that has access to a variety of lands and to use them repeatedly. It lets you delete all these considerations from memory and make things happen.

Just recently a long-time good friend called me in a real pinch. He needed a world class attorney same-day for an employment matter. I gave him a warm handoff to one of the best in the business who took his call without a deposit/retainer/consult fee in good faith. In the end, my good friend didn't like the excellent advice based on the facts, and haggled with the attorney. In the end, the person paid half the billable rate of the attorney, but he is no longer my good friend. Abuse of my good reputation comes with consequences. That's why I'm mighty choosy who I recommend to my PHs and Operators too, because my reputation can result in a PH being abused if I give referrals too easily.

Rambling points, build solid relationships and keep your word and in time you don't need to worry about the OPs scenario.

 

[FlyGuy]

Reading this thread has literally jogged cobwebs loose in my mind from more than a decade ago. I haven't signed a contract or wired a deposit in more than a decade. The word of my operators is gold, and my word is gold when I say I'm coming. Cash is paid on the spot and a handshake is what occurs at the end.

Such relationships are earned through time together and mutual respect. The fastest way to de-risk your life is to find a great operator and PH that has access to a variety of lands and to use them repeatedly. It lets you delete all these considerations from memory and make things happen.

Just recently a long-time good friend called me in a real pinch. He needed a world class attorney same-day for an employment matter. I gave him a warm handoff to one of the best in the business who took his call without a deposit/retainer/consult fee in good faith. In the end, my good friend didn't like the excellent advice based on the facts, and haggled with the attorney. In the end, the person paid half the billable rate of the attorney, but he is no longer my good friend. Abuse of my good reputation comes with consequences. That's why I'm mighty choosy who I recommend to my PHs and Operators too, because my reputation can result in a PH being abused if I give referrals too easily.

Rambling points, build solid relationships and keep your word and in time you don't need to worry about the OPs scenario.

Even with biltong hunting…

I’ve been fortunate enough to hunt some great properties for fair prices.
I never refer anyone, unless I know that they’ll honour the gentleman’s code.

The price is the price, and the rules are the rules. Don’t like it?
Find another place!

 

[freefall]

I too am damn stingy with who I refer to whom, and vice versa.

 

[Nyati]

Yes it is not unusual & common with European hunters, the Spanish almost get into fist fight over it !

Hear lots of yelling & shouting from the office after some hunts.

Not a good idea targeting nationalities of hunters for bad behaviour.

Based on what ? Your opinion ?

I have been on 8 safaris with small groups of hunters from Spain and haggling on prices has never happened, maybe you have better statistics.

Some PH´s have given me their opinions on certain nationalities of hunters, which I am not going to reproduce, I just take it as someone´s opinion, which may be biased for whatever reason.

 

[Rare Breed]

I know all of you want to shoot me but I told an outfitter I hunted with recently his cost was too low based on the experience. I just always want to be fair with my outfitters and have been so fortunate to always being felt fairly by them

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Personally, I think this practice is in extremely poor taste and I hope I haven’t just exacerbated the problem.

Extremely poor taste and unethical in my opinion. This is why we have contracts that are signed so there is no argument sometime give or take a year from when the agreement was made. No one has to "remember" what was agreed upon.

As for adding anything to the contract, the price should be known prior to pulling the trigger and avoid any surprises.

As for gentleman/handshake agreements that were mentioned. If the client and outfitter are familiar and a rapport with each other, then I'd agree that can work and it's great when you can do that. But that's a big IF. In the case where that familiarity and rapport doesn't exist, I think that would be an extraordinarily bad idea for both client and outfitter alike.

Without a contract, it leaves either open to shenanigans by the other with very little recourse when the stinky stuff hits the fan.

 

[DillonG]

A signed contract. Those are the key words in any hunt. Everything is spelled out and a contract is signed by both parties before the hunt. It's a business deal like any other. Anyone not getting a contract signed by both parties has no one to blame but himself. Animals taken outside the contract should be negotiated before being taken. Eliminates hidden charges and questions and makes for a much better relationship if you want to hunt with that outfitter again.

On my first safari I had a list of 5 animals I wanted per contract. I ended up taking 5 more. The trophy fee was not questioned by me. I knew what it was before the shot and I agreed to pay it. Because I posed no argument he gave me a break on the extras. Same for my second and third hunts (with the same outfitter). A little consideration goes a long way on both sides.

Example: On my first hunt with that outfitter I wanted a kudu. Because the area we hunted was a breeding/raising ranch for buffalo they didn't want me to use my 375HH. The noise would disturb the buf. So the outfitter lent me his suppressed 243. I questioned the caliber but he said it was what he used for culling. OOKAAY. Anyway, it worked and I got my kudu with one shot. It was the afternoon of the last day and because I had taken extra animals he didn't charge me for the rifle and ammo.

Yes, the signed contract is everything. Any fresh-out-of-college business professional understands this procedure. The contract should be the most exhaustive part of any hunt. Everything needs to be spelled out and agreed upon. This is the same as spelling out a SOW. If the outfitter wants to throw you a deal, great. At least you won’t be blind-sided by additional charges, and the outfitter doesn’t need to worry about a hunter trying to wriggle out of money owed.

Good contracts make all parties very happy.

 

[Badger Matt]

No need to name the outfitter.
But, can you list the items what came up as extra, non planned costs? Which country was it?

I had billing issues, or nearly so, on both of my RSA hunts. Both were booked via US-based agents. On the first hunt, when it came time to settle up there was a considerable cost for VAT. I told him that wasn’t in the contract. He said he was sure it was on the web-site (irrelevant, but I knew it wasn’t). He checked and he ate that cost. Second hunt, the cost was more than I expected so the outfitter called the agent to confirm the package deal we’d made. Outfitter came back and said “you’re right. I’m sorry.” Then there was a cost difference on a warthog - they were cheap so I shot three. I showed him the price sheet he put in each room. He changed the bill in my favor and changed the price sheets in each room. I’d happily hunt with either of these outfits again.

 

[Scott CWO]

I guided for a few years, worked plumbing/HVAC service for 25 after that. As a general rule, the richer the client, the bitchier. Working stiffs were a joy to work for.

What I’ve seen in life, not only guiding, is the really wealthy guys are easygoing and no worries. They have nothing to prove and everyone knows they are crazy wealthy so it’s a non-issue and they aren’t trying to impress anyone.

Other guys that are wealthy, but not as much as the crazy wealthy guys, can sometimes be more difficult but even that is rare.

 

[K-man]

Nothing wrong with asking for the outfitters "best price" politely BEFORE any animals are taken. I would never negotiate for something after a charge has been incurred. It works both ways, I was on a hunt and took extra animals. I had a printed price sheet with me when we were settling the bill, the prices listed on my bill were at least 25% below my list. I asked about the difference, he sheepishly checked his list, and said he was using the wrong pricing sheet. They had 4 different price structures for clients. We met in the middle and everyone was happy.

 

[matt85]

Growing up, my father always encouraged haggling. But he also taught me "a deal is a deal". I will attempt to negotiate the price of an animal or hunt. But once it's agreed upon, the contract is fixed.

I don't see anything wrong with asking for a free pig, monkey, or Jackal (if you have extra time) to go with your $10,000 buffalo. Again, this would be negotiated into the contract before the hunt. This sort of thing keeps you and your PH from sitting around the lodge doing nothing and usually doesn't cost the outfitter anything.