Thoughts on Tuskless Hunting

Questions: (great topic btw)

1. Which countries offer tuskless ele hunt, besides Zimbabwe?

2. What are the options for tuskless bull?
Tuskless bulls are very rare. Zim is the best place to hunt them as far as I know. There certainly cull elephant hunts other places however.
 
Population management in any species surely revolves around the management of females with the mature trophy males being the cherry on the cake….. or am I wrong??
Yes you are correct. Shooting males does nothing to the population.
 
General guidelines:
older high trophy bulls / males after their reproduction age - have no more contribution to gene pool. (to majority of trophy species). This is proper age for taking them
But perspective young bulls, if shot could make in long term deterioration of gene pool, as recessive gene pool will prevail.

Non perspective specimens male or female, and those who visibly bring recessive gene, should be removed as early as possible.

This is in theory. Not sure of specifics for elephant management
 
Those of you who have hunted both, what is the body size difference between these tuskless cows and a mature bull? I’m curious about are they close or is there a clear difference
 
I hate tuskless and cow elephant hunting for a variety of reasons. YMMV.

1.) I'm frugal. You save very little hunting tuskless or cows compared to exportable bulls. Thus, I don't find it to be a great value.

2.) Its needlessly dangerous. I don't enjoy being in thick jess surrounded on 3 sides by cows with calves. They will freak out when they scent you, sending angry elephants in all directions.

3.) Its needlessly scandalous. WHEN those cows have had enough and they start coming, you may have to kill a lot of elephants needlessly because you tempted fate. That leaves you scurrying for a charter flight the hell out of there before you're in an African jail awaiting the end of the inquiry. There is no good outcome when this happens, not guilty or no charges filed still can end your career and put you on the news.

4.) You're killing the primary source of the future of the species. There are ample elephant bulls out there, why not take an old tusker or his askari out in one shot, rather than depleting cows while causing them emotional trauma to the whole herd? When culls were done professionally, they killed ALL the cows at once so they told no tales. You really don't want hostile cows become extra hostile because one remembers the last time they were hunted.

Its legal, do what you will, but I think its the dumbest of sports in our fraternity. Your life is worth more. The elephant is worth more. You save almost nothing. You open us up to undue scrutiny.
 
Those of you who have hunted both, what is the body size difference between these tuskless cows and a mature bull? I’m curious about are they close or is there a clear difference
Pretty noticeable difference on a mature bull. I didn't hunt a bull, but we were around several during the course of our hunt. Cows are still an impressive sight the first time you meet one in person, but a mature bull is a good bit larger.
 
I hate tuskless and cow elephant hunting for a variety of reasons. YMMV.

1.) I'm frugal. You save very little hunting tuskless or cows compared to exportable bulls. Thus, I don't find it to be a great value.

2.) Its needlessly dangerous. I don't enjoy being in thick jess surrounded on 3 sides by cows with calves. They will freak out when they scent you, sending angry elephants in all directions.

3.) Its needlessly scandalous. WHEN those cows have had enough and they start coming, you may have to kill a lot of elephants needlessly because you tempted fate. That leaves you scurrying for a charter flight the hell out of there before you're in an African jail awaiting the end of the inquiry. There is no good outcome when this happens, not guilty or no charges filed still can end your career and put you on the news.

4.) You're killing the primary source of the future of the species. There are ample elephant bulls out there, why not take an old tusker or his askari out in one shot, rather than depleting cows while causing them emotional trauma to the whole herd? When culls were done professionally, they killed ALL the cows at once so they told no tales. You really don't want hostile cows become extra hostile because one remembers the last time they were hunted.

Its legal, do what you will, but I think its the dumbest of sports in our fraternity. Your life is worth more. The elephant is worth more. You save almost nothing. You open us up to undue scrutiny.
I guess we'll disagree.

1) The trophy fee of a tuskless is about $5K same or less than a buffalo. A trophy bull is a lot more both in trophy fees and daily fees, so it is a savings for sure if one wants to shoot an elephant.

2) YOLO :unsure: . Also, if one has a good PH one can avoid that situation of herds. In 2021 we did not go after a tuskless if it was in the middle of a herd where we could not approach without being scented by one of the others. In 2022 there were only two and we were very careful. For me the extra thrill is worth it, I can't jump out of planes since my hip surgery this helps feed my adrenaline addiction;)

3) See above on approaches. I have shot an elephant in self defense (a young bull) and all it involved was filing the proper paperwork with parks. There is a reason a Parks ranger is along. No need for dramatics or FUD.

4) It is not applicable if one is careful.

I don't see how it opens anyone to extra scrutiny. Plus, people shooting tuskless will have to take a number after people shooting CBLs in RSA.
 
If I ever have the funds to do it, ( lottery, so not likely), it will be a mature bull with a nice set of tusks.
 
Population management in any species surely revolves around the management of females with the mature trophy males being the cherry on the cake….. or am I wrong??
In some cases removing the entire family group is a better option.....
 
I hate tuskless and cow elephant hunting for a variety of reasons. YMMV.

1.) I'm frugal. You save very little hunting tuskless or cows compared to exportable bulls. Thus, I don't find it to be a great value.

2.) Its needlessly dangerous. I don't enjoy being in thick jess surrounded on 3 sides by cows with calves. They will freak out when they scent you, sending angry elephants in all directions.

3.) Its needlessly scandalous. WHEN those cows have had enough and they start coming, you may have to kill a lot of elephants needlessly because you tempted fate. That leaves you scurrying for a charter flight the hell out of there before you're in an African jail awaiting the end of the inquiry. There is no good outcome when this happens, not guilty or no charges filed still can end your career and put you on the news.

4.) You're killing the primary source of the future of the species. There are ample elephant bulls out there, why not take an old tusker or his askari out in one shot, rather than depleting cows while causing them emotional trauma to the whole herd? When culls were done professionally, they killed ALL the cows at once so they told no tales. You really don't want hostile cows become extra hostile because one remembers the last time they were hunted.

Its legal, do what you will, but I think its the dumbest of sports in our fraternity. Your life is worth more. The elephant is worth more. You save almost nothing. You open us up to undue scrutiny.
WOW...I had to check 3 times that this was not a greenpeace type article....

1) Tuskless are typically 3 to 4 times cheaper than trophy bulls

2) Hunting tuskless in thick jess is certainly not for everyone....some freak out getting within 50 yards from elephants in the open let alone in thick jesse...so if not for you dont do it....

3) Cannot recall this ever getting a client into trouble.....on rare occasions maybe possible but it surely is not a case of the client having to shoot his way out of this situation and then run for the airport before getting arrested....a fiction of the imagination or reading too many books....

4) Eish.....southern Africa is way over populated with elephant... the quicker uncontrolled breeding is brought back under control the better....
Kruger is single handedly being destroyed by elephant over population and together with it the habitat of many many species.....Botswana and parts of Zim has the same problem....
They should give a bull ttophy hunter a free cow and another 4 at US2500.....will still not bring down the populations.....
 
Fellow Hunters,

In my limited experiences of speaking with anti-hunter people (aka: emotional wrecks) it appears that they will hate us, no matter what we set out to bag, except fish for some unknown reason (figure that one out).:unsure:
These self-righteous people seem to be haters and they hate because they love to hate …. they love it.
If this world had no hunting whatsoever, these goofballs would quickly make up reasons to hate other folks, no matter what.
And so, wether we take a bull or cow, buck or doe, ram or ewe, we are evil in their childish and emotionally charged thought processes.

The non-hunting masses however might see things a little bit different than the anti-hunting zealots, again judging from my limited conversations with such types.
It appears to me that at least some of these well meaning but misinformed people are OK with hunting for the lean, antibiotic free game meat.
Many are also OK with shooting for predator control, especially on livestock farms and / or to keep predator numbers in balance, as a management tool toward keeping hoofed game and lesser prey species numbers, up to healthy levels.

What they tell me is that, they do not understand and therefore tend to dislike what many (myself included) refer to as “tape measure hunting” and / or “trophy hunting”.
Don’t get me wrong here.
I have dead critters and photos of same, all over my walls, in my home.
So, I’m not especially popular with at least one of my mixed up neighbors.:ROFLMAO:
That said, I cannot tell you what any of my critters would “score” or “measure”, neither do I care.
Looking at them reminds me of my happy times in the bush, while hunting and fishing.
I do have a tape measure and I use it when building things out of lumber.

Another thing that the people I’ve spoken with, among the non-hunting types about this, (again, not the hater types) do not like captive bred animals being released into a small property, just shortly before being shot for their horn length, black mane, hybrid weird color horns, whatever.

Certainly we all here disagree with the anti-hunting people.
And, I’m not insisting that anyone agree or disagree with myself or the non-hunting general public on these thoughts.
I’m just submitting what I have learned from conversing with folks.

And I know that my opinion on tape measures, record books and shooting pen raised - freshly released critters, aka: put & take “hunting” on small plots is not welcome with some members here.
Nonetheless, I began hunting hoofed game (deer) at age 15 and now I’m age 70.
I have felt this way since the beginning.

Hunting and fishing are extremely important to me.
But, I believe that we are shooting ourselves in the foot by all this tape measure and trophy book culture, as it shouts the wrong message to the general public.
The well meaning folk might otherwise be a bit more accepting of our hunting culture.
Again, I’m not referring to the anti-hunters.
There is little hope for them.

As for the non-hunter’s opinion of us, although it is only partly true that some (some) hunters only want the horns, antlers, tusks and do not themselves eat the meat, many of us do eat and truly enjoy the meat.
I sure do.
The more reasonable non-hunters, apparently would like to understand why we enjoy hunting and fishing but, are put off by what they see as the wrong reason to hunt and fish, IE: “trophy hunting”.

Let ‘er rip, very likely I’ve had worse.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.
 
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Fellow Hunters,

In my limited experiences of speaking with anti-hunter people (aka: emotional wrecks) it appears that they will hate us, no matter what we set out to bag, except fish for some unknown reason (figure that one out).:unsure:
These self-righteous people seem to be haters and they hate because they love to hate …. they love it.
If this world had no hunting whatsoever, these goofballs would quickly make up reasons to hate other folks, no matter what.
And so, wether we take a bull or cow, buck or doe, ram or ewe, we are evil in their childish and emotionally charged thought processes.

The non-hunting masses however might see things a little bit different than the anti-hunting zealots, again judging from my limited conversations with such types.
It appears to me that at least some of these well meaning but misinformed people are OK with hunting for the lean, antibiotic free game meat.
Many are also OK with shooting for predator control, especially on livestock farms and / or to keep predator numbers in balance, as a management tool toward keeping hoofed game and lesser prey species numbers, up to healthy levels.

What they tell me is that, they do not understand and therefore tend to dislike what many (myself included) refer to as “tape measure hunting” and / or “trophy hunting”.
Don’t get me wrong here.
I have dead critters and photos of same, all over my walls, in my home.
So, I’m not especially popular with at least one of my mixed up neighbors.:ROFLMAO:
That said, I cannot tell you what any of my critters would “score” or “measure”, neither do I care.
Looking at them reminds me of my happy times in the bush, while hunting and fishing.
I do have a tape measure and I use it when building things out of lumber.

Another thing that the people I’ve spoken with, among the non-hunting types, (again, not the hater types), about this do not like captive bred animals being released into a small property, just shortly before being shot for their horn length, black mane, hybrid weird color horns, whatever.

Certainly we all here disagree with the anti-hunting people.
And, I’m not insisting that anyone agree or disagree with myself or the non-hunting general public on these thoughts.
I’m just submitting what I have learned from conversing with folks.

And I know that my opinion on tape measures, record books and shooting pen raised - freshly released critters, aka: put & take “hunting” on small plots is not welcome with some members here.
Nonetheless, I began hunting hoofed game (deer) at age 15 and now I’m age 70.
I have felt this way since the beginning.

Hunting and fishing are extremely important to me.
But, I believe that we are shooting ourselves in the foot by all this tape measure and trophy book culture, as it shouts the wrong message to the general public.
These well meaning folk might otherwise be a bit more accepting of our hunting culture.
Again, I’m not referring to the anti-hunters.
There is little hope for them.

As for the non-hunter’s opinion of us, although it is only partly true that some (some) hunters only want the horns, antlers, tusks and do not themselves eat the meat, many of us do eat and truly enjoy the meat.
I sure do.
The more reasonable non-hunters, apparently would like to understand why we enjoy hunting and fishing but, are put off by what they see as the wrong reason to hunt and fish, IE: “trophy hunting”.

Let ‘er rip, very likely I’ve had worse.

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.
Nah...I think that's pretty spot on. Can't really argue with you there. I say to each his own, and we need all the hunters we can get to keep the hunting community strong, but I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I'm not "against" the tape measure hunters, but it isn't my thing. The trophies I earned on my trip to Zim are valuable to me because I got to hunt them in "wild africa" which I think falls under some of the same ideals that we were discussing on the "taking a double on your first safari" thread. It was important to me that I hunt them the way I did, with a double, and more importantly in a fair chase, non-fenced area. I paid my money and took my chances to do it the way I felt it should be done so that I would be able to look back at that hunt and enjoy it and be proud of the animals I hunted.
 
I hate tuskless and cow elephant hunting for a variety of reasons. YMMV.

1.) I'm frugal. You save very little hunting tuskless or cows compared to exportable bulls. Thus, I don't find it to be a great value.

2.) Its needlessly dangerous. I don't enjoy being in thick jess surrounded on 3 sides by cows with calves. They will freak out when they scent you, sending angry elephants in all directions.

3.) Its needlessly scandalous. WHEN those cows have had enough and they start coming, you may have to kill a lot of elephants needlessly because you tempted fate. That leaves you scurrying for a charter flight the hell out of there before you're in an African jail awaiting the end of the inquiry. There is no good outcome when this happens, not guilty or no charges filed still can end your career and put you on the news.

4.) You're killing the primary source of the future of the species. There are ample elephant bulls out there, why not take an old tusker or his askari out in one shot, rather than depleting cows while causing them emotional trauma to the whole herd? When culls were done professionally, they killed ALL the cows at once so they told no tales. You really don't want hostile cows become extra hostile because one remembers the last time they were hunted.

It’s legal, do what you will, but I think it’s the dumbest of sports in our fraternity. Your life is worth more. The elephant is worth more. You save almost nothing. You open us up to undue scrutiny.
With great respect, the difference in cost at least in Zim from a tuskless to a bull that will be 30-40 pounds is $10,000 more for the latter…if you want a 50+ bull you are talking $30-$50,000 more in cost…that’s a lot to me
 
With great respect, the difference in cost at least in Zim from a tuskless to a bull that will be 30-40 pounds is $10,000 more for the latter…if you want a 50+ bull you are talking $30-$50,000 more in cost…that’s a lot to me

I've never spent less than $16,000 all-in (w/ airfare, tips, lodging, curios) for a safari nor have I ever spent more than $23,000.

The least you're going to pay in trophy fee for a tuskless or cow used to be about $6000? For a bull, you're going to pay at minimum $11,000. So there is a $5000 cost differential between tuskless/cow and exportable bull.

Not a lot of savings to shoot a cow, unless you take the extreme case (e.g. $65,000 Botswana Bull) versus the normative case (e.g. $23,000 Zim bull)

There is also not a significant price difference between a non-importable bull, a trophy 40lb exportable bull, and a trophy exportable 60lb bull. Shop smart.
 
My tuskless hunt last year was rather uneventful. One shot through the brain and it was all over. No trumpeting, no nothing. The others just ran away. We weren't in particularly thick cover, so I feel like we were pretty lucky in that respect.
This year I'm hunting both tuskless and a bull, so either one we run into is on the list. I almost canceled the tuskless after I added the bull, but I figure we could likely to run into a tuskless while looking for a bull, so I might as well keep them on the menu as well.
I shot my tuskless on the first day of the hunt last year, so I didn't get the full experience of stalking in on multiple herds. I hope to change that this year.
 
Nah...I think that's pretty spot on. Can't really argue with you there. I say to each his own, and we need all the hunters we can get to keep the hunting community strong, but I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I'm not "against" the tape measure hunters, but it isn't my thing. The trophies I earned on my trip to Zim are valuable to me because I got to hunt them in "wild africa" which I think falls under some of the same ideals that we were discussing on the "taking a double on your first safari" thread. It was important to me that I hunt them the way I did, with a double, and more importantly in a fair chase, non-fenced area. I paid my money and took my chances to do it the way I felt it should be done so that I would be able to look back at that hunt and enjoy it and be proud of the animals I hunted.
I hear you brother and thanks.
Neither am I “against” the tape measure folks.
My previous rant was simply to suggest that, we hunters could do a lot better in the Public Relations arena.
 
I have no dog in this fight and absolutely zero real world experience with the topic. Although if/when I do it will be with a double rifle (can’t resist stirring the pot).

That said perception is reality to the masses and as hunters/outdoorsman we damn sure can do a better job of managing that perception without cutting each other off at the knees continually.
 
I've never spent less than $16,000 all-in (w/ airfare, tips, lodging, curios) for a safari nor have I ever spent more than $23,000.

The least you're going to pay in trophy fee for a tuskless or cow used to be about $6000? For a bull, you're going to pay at minimum $11,000. So there is a $5000 cost differential between tuskless/cow and exportable bull.

Not a lot of savings to shoot a cow, unless you take the extreme case (e.g. $65,000 Botswana Bull) versus the normative case (e.g. $23,000 Zim bull)

There is also not a significant price difference between a non-importable bull, a trophy 40lb exportable bull, and a trophy exportable 60lb bull. Shop smart.
Todays Zim cost is $4-$4.5 for a tuskless and minimum $14 for a bull. I know because I go next month
 

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