458WinMag or 470 Capstick, what would you take?

458 Win Mag or 470 Capstick

  • 458 Win Mag

    Votes: 19 65.5%
  • 470 Capstick

    Votes: 10 34.5%

  • Total voters
    29
I suspect those Barnes will penetrate as well as most solids....

In my experience, yes they do, and they will exit the North end of a big Buff after entering the South end. Never mind sideway, where it seems the .458 500 gr TSX launched at Lott speed will simply punch in & out and kill the next one (or two?) in line...

In fact, I have come to think of them as "expanding solids" -- which they very exactly are from a technical perspective -- and, to the dismay of purists, I would have zero issue hunting Elephant with TSX, even for frontal brain shot.

Actually, some evidence has emerged of the .458 500 gr TSX being used on brain shots in culling operations with perfect results...

Will a 500 gr TSX penetrate less than a 500 gr Banded Solid? Sure! Will it penetrate enough in ALL possible cases? I need to shoot a few of then through an Elephant's femur or humerus to be sure, but I think so. I intend to do just that on my next Ele hunt after he is dead.

As to a lung, heart, or lung/heart shots, there is no doubt in my mind, a TSX will do just fine (better in fact than a pure solid).

All this being said, I am not sure I buy the argument of downgunning to .375 on Buff for overpenetration reasons. Here is why: a 300 gr TSX at 50 yards from a .375 H&H will punch through a sideway Buff just as easily as a 500 gr TSX from a .458 Win or Lott. In BOTH cases you need to check carefully what is behind him before shooting.

So, let me solve this caliber selection issue for you, CZDiesel :A Gathering:
  • .470 or .458 for both Ele and Buff. Since your .458 seems to be nasty, take the .470 (and do not loose your ammo);
  • Add a Lion to your safari for which the .375 will be perfect :E Rofl: or if Eland is already in the menu, then you already have all the reasons in the world to bring the .375 H&H (and yes it is a ready backup for BOTH .470 and .300, which does not hurt by the time you have flown half across the world to Africa;
  • Take a rest from big boomers and bruisers by shooting the .300 at PG.
 
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In my experience, yes they do, and they will exit the North end of a big Buff after entering the South end. Never mind sideway, where it seems the .458 500 gr TSX launched at Lott speed will simply punch in & out and kill the next one (or two?) in line...

In fact, I have come to think of them as "expanding solids" -- which they very exactly are from a technical perspective -- and, to the dismay of purists, I would have zero issue hunting Elephant with TSX, even for frontal brain shot.

Actually, some evidence has emerged of the .458 500 gr TSX being used on brain shots in culling operations with perfect results...

Will a 500 gr TSX penetrate less than a 500 gr Banded Solid? Sure! Will it penetrate enough in ALL possible cases? I need to shoot a few of then through an Elephant's femur or humerus to be sure, but I think so. I intend to do just that on my next Ele hunt after he is dead.

As to a lung, heart, or lung/heart shots, there is no doubt in my mind, a TSX will do just fine (better in fact than a pure solid).

All this being said, I am not sure I buy the argument of downgunning to .375 on Buff for overpenetration reasons. Here is why: a 300 gr TSX at 50 yards from a .375 H&H will punch through a sideway Buff just as easily as a 500 gr TSX from a .458 Win or Lott. In BOTH cases you need to check carefully what is behind him before shooting.

So, let me solve this caliber selection issue for you, CZDiesel :A Gathering:
  • .470 or .458 for both Ele and Buff. Since your .458 seems to be nasty, take the .470 (and do not loose your ammo);
  • Add a Lion to your safari for which the .375 will be perfect :E Rofl: or if Eland is already in the menu, then you already have all the reasons in the world to bring the .375 H&H (and yes it is a ready backup for BOTH .470 and .300, which does not hurt by the time you have flown half across the world to Africa;
  • Take a rest from big boomers and bruisers by shooting the .300 at PG.
Great post! I agree with most all of it except for the 375 I shoot Federal TBBC and Sledgehammers not the Barnes X.
Having said that Lion is just not in the cards though the property is crawling with them! Eland is a possibility!
IMG_1407.png

This is what I’ll be hunting in, you can see why the PH might be concerned with over penetration. It’s hard to see if another Buff is behind the one you are shooting
 
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In my experience, yes they do, and they will exit the North end of a big Buff after entering the South end. Never mind sideway, where it seems the .458 500 gr TSX launched at Lott speed will simply punch in & out and kill the next one (or two?) in line...

In fact, I have come to think of them as "expanding solids" -- which they very exactly are from a technical perspective -- and, to the dismay of purists, I would have zero issue hunting Elephant with TSX, even for frontal brain shot.

Actually, some evidence has emerged of the .458 500 gr TSX being used on brain shots in culling operations with perfect results...

Will a 500 gr TSX penetrate less than a 500 gr Banded Solid? Sure! Will it penetrate enough in ALL possible cases? I need to shoot a few of then through an Elephant's femur or humerus to be sure, but I think so. I intend to do just that on my next Ele hunt after he is dead.

As to a lung, heart, or lung/heart shots, there is no doubt in my mind, a TSX will do just fine (better in fact than a pure solid).

All this being said, I am not sure I buy the argument of downgunning to .375 on Buff for overpenetration reasons. Here is why: a 300 gr TSX at 50 yards from a .375 H&H will punch through a sideway Buff just as easily as a 500 gr TSX from a .458 Win or Lott. In BOTH cases you need to check carefully what is behind him before shooting.

So, let me solve this caliber selection issue for you, CZDiesel :A Gathering:
  • .470 or .458 for both Ele and Buff. Since your .458 seems to be nasty, take the .470 (and do not loose your ammo);
  • Add a Lion to your safari for which the .375 will be perfect :E Rofl: or if Eland is already in the menu, then you already have all the reasons in the world to bring the .375 H&H (and yes it is a ready backup for BOTH .470 and .300, which does not hurt by the time you have flown half across the world to Africa;
  • Take a rest from big boomers and bruisers by shooting the .300 at PG.
If one were to be the devils advocate to not shoot Triple Shocks I'd suggest the following.

1. A triple shock should not be used as a solid. If a pedal breaks off it is more likely to turn and not have a straight wound channel.

2. If it is not driven fast enough (which we have seen several examples in this forum) it will not expand at all which minimizes the effectiveness of the bullets intended purpose.

Disclaimer. I am not the CEO of a Bullet Company and I am as far away from being a bullet expert as one can be. Just making conversation.
 
I would take the 458 because that is what I have.
However in your case with you shooting a 470 better, that would be the recommendation.
 
If one were to be the devils advocate to not shoot Triple Shocks I'd suggest the following.

1. A triple shock should not be used as a solid. If a pedal breaks off it is more likely to turn and not have a straight wound channel.

2. If it is not driven fast enough (which we have seen several examples in this forum) it will not expand at all which minimizes the effectiveness of the bullets intended purpose.

Disclaimer. I am not the CEO of a Bullet Company and I am as far away from being a bullet expert as one can be. Just making conversation.

This is all true in the theoretical absolute, but...

1) having been through the first "premium ammo" revolution, when Federal introduced the Nosler Partition in their Premium line in 1977 and instantly outclassed the Remington Core-Lockt, Winchester Power Point, and other Federal Power Shock, etc. ammo;​
2) then having been through the second "premium ammo" revolution when Barnes and Swift introduced factory loads for their TSX and AFrame bullets in 2010 and 2016 respectively;​

...I remain absolutely amazed at the incredible leap forward accomplished, and I cannot help but notice that bullet failure in the 1970's meant the escape of a wounded animal, while bullet "failure" today generally means discerting philosophically whether a solid deviated a few degrees in its penetration or not, whether a TSX that punched through an animal expanded enough or not, etc. while happily forgetting to consider that the animal was killed, generally very cleanly, which somehow demonstrates that the bullet did its job...

I personally gravitated toward TSX and TTSX because I live in Northern Arizona near the Condor recovery area where hunting with, or even shooting lead core bullets is frowned upon. Had I not, I suspect that the bonded partition also known as the Swift AFrame would likely have been my next step after 30 happy years with the Nosler Partition Federal Premium ammo.

It makes me smile that the Partition was venerated then and is disdained now for loosing its front core. Never mind that this is how the bullet is designed to function. And never mind that recovered Partitions missing their front core (horror!) all come from animals that were killed very dead, and often pole-axed in the process of the front core expanding explosively. Not bad for a "failed" bullet... In any case, if you open the chamber of my .375 H&H barrel when I am in a Leopard blind, you will find 300 gr Partitions. I cannot think of a better .375 Leopard bullet...

Whichever mono TSX or bonded AFrame is selected is relatively irrelevant because I believe that both are equally good, although embodying different technologies, but I have considerably more experience with TSX (.470 NE, .458 Lott, .375 H&H, wife's 9.3x62) and TTSX (.257 Wby, .300 Wby, wife's .270 Win) in Africa, so I will talk about what I know: the TSX / TTSX. I am no professional bullet maker, nor am I a professional hunter, nor am I expert in ballistics, autopsy, or whatever, but I collected probably over 100 animals so far with TSX / TTSX and,

-- I have never recovered a TTSX from .257 Wby or .300 Wby in shots from 50 to 500+ yards. Did they expand enough or too much? I do not know, but they sure killed "dead right there" everything they went through, from Klipspringer to Sable. My wife's .270 Win make the TTSX fly slower than my Wby's, but same experience there.​
Note: Maybe this is because we prefer the behind-the-shoulder-double lung & heart shot... Maybe those who shoot for the shoulder recover more bullets, but I never could understand why one should prefer to break a shoulder (non lethal) rather than collapse two lungs and destroy the heart (lethal). Many wounded animals walk the bush with broken shoulders, none with destroyed lungs and heart... "Anchor it!" maybe have been the call of the days of unreliable bullets, but it is definitely outdated with reliable bullets that DO reach the vitals.
-- I think that I have only recovered one TSX: a 500 gr .458 launched by a Lott, that went lengthwise through an Elephant and rested against the skin. The 300 gr launched by the .375 H&H zip right through Buffalo sideways (behind the shoulder), and even do those from the 9.3x62. Do the 286 gr .366 expand enough at 9.3x62 speed? I do not know, but the Buffs sure die in a big hurry. Do the 300 gr .375 penetrate straight, with all their petals, or not, in an up-the-butt through the hip follow up shot? I do not know, but the Buffs sure die in a big hurry.​

I am not making a point about Barnes specifically -- I only selected the TSX and TTSX because I do not reload and Barnes and Weatherby offer loaded ammo with them -- and I am sure that North Fork, Cutting Edge, Peregrine, etc. do just as well.

The bottom line is that it seems that most discussions nowadays about the relative merits and performance of premium slugs, be they monometal or bonded, be they 50 gr lighter or heavier than typical weight, be they truncated or round nose, etc. are almost purely academic debates where what is truly discussed is how much 'above & beyond' performance a bullet delivers, beside killing consistently very fast and very dead.

I will happily concede that killing consistently very fast and very dead has me happy enough.

To each our own :)
 
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This is all true in the theoretical absolute, but...

1) having been through the first "premium ammo" revolution, when Federal introduced the Nosler Partition in their Premium line in 1977 and instantly outclassed the Remington Core-Lockt, Winchester Power Point, and other Federal Power Shock, etc. ammo;​
2) then having been through the second "premium ammo" revolution when Barnes and Swift introduced factory loads for their TSX and AFrame bullets in 2010 and 2016 respectively;​

...I remain absolutely amazed at the incredible leap forward accomplished, and I cannot help but notice that bullet failure in the 1970's meant the escape of a wounded animal, while bullet "failure" today generally means discerting philosophically whether a solid deviated a few degrees in its penetration or not, whether a TSX that punched through an animal expanded enough or not, etc. while happily forgetting to consider that the animal was killed, generally very cleanly, which somehow demonstrates that the bullet did its job...

I personally gravitated toward TSX and TTSX because I live in Northern Arizona in the Condor recovery area where hunting with, or even shooting lead core bullets is frowned upon. Had I not, I suspect that the bonded partition also known as the Swift AFrame would likely have been my next step after 30 happy years with the Nosler Partition Federal Premium ammo, which was venerated then and is disdained now for loosing its front core, never mind that this is how the bullet is designed to function, and never mind that recovered Partitions missing their front core (horror!) all come from animals that were killed very dead, and often pole-axed in the process of the front core expanding explosively. Not bad for a "failed" bullet...

Whichever mono TSX or bonded AFrame is selected is relatively irrelevant because I believe that both are equally good, although embodying different technologies, but I have considerably more experience with TSX (.470 NE, .458 Lott, .375 H&H, wife's 9.3x62) and TTSX (.257 Wby, .300 Wby, wife's .270 Win), so I will talk about what I know: the TSX / TTSX. I am no professional bullet maker, nor am I a professional hunter, nor am I expert in ballistics, autopsy, or whatever, but I collected probably over 100 animals so far with TSX / TTSX and,

-- I have never recovered a TTSX from .257 Wby or .300 Wby in shots from 50 to 500+ yards. Did they expand enough or too much? I do not know. but they sure killed "dead right there" everything they went through, from Klipspringer to Sable. My wife's .270 Win make the TTSX fly slower than my Wby, but same experience there.​
Note: Maybe this is because we prefer the behind-the-shoulder-double lung & heart shot... Maybe those who shoot for the shoulder recover more bullets, but I never could understand why one should prefer to break a shoulder (non lethal) rather than collapse two lungs and destroy the heart (lethal). Many wounded animals walk the bush with broken shoulders, none with destroyed lungs and heart... "Anchor it!" maybe have been the call of the days of unreliable bullets, but it is definitely outdated with reliable bullets that DO reach the vitals.
-- I think that I have only recovered one TSX: a 500 gr .458 launched by a Lott, that went lengthwise through an Elephant and rested against the skin. Those launched by the .375 H&H zip right through Buffalo sideways (behind the shoulder), and even do those from the 9.3x62. Do the 286 gr .366 expand enough at 9.3x62 speed? I do not know, but the Buffs sure die in a big hurry. Do the 300 gr .375 penetrate straight, with all their petals, or not, in an up-the-butt follow up shot? I do not know, but the Buffs sure die in a big hurry.​

I am not making a point about Barnes specifically -- I only selected the TSX and TTSX because I do not reload and Barnes and Weatherby offer loaded ammo with them -- and I am sure that North Fork, Cutting Edge, Peregrine, etc. do just as well.

The bottom line is that it seems that most discussions nowadays about the relative merits and performance of premium slugs, be they monometal or bonded, be tehy 50 gr more or less than typical weight; be they truncated or round nose, etc. are almost purely academic debates where what is truly discussed is how much 'above & beyond' performance a bullet delivers beside killing consistently very fast and very dead.

I will happily concede that killing consistently very fast and very dead has me happy enough. To each our own :)
Well said!

For me, back in the 1970s & 80s we sometime scratched our heads wondering what went wrong and how the animal ran away after a well placed shot.

Now a days with so many excellent bullets we have discussions standing over the dead animal. A lot of ground has been covered in bullet technology in the last 3 decades!
 
As some of you know I’ll be going to Zimbabwe next year on a three week Safari for Elephant, Buffalo, and nine head of Plains Game. It will be a three gun Safari with my 300 H&H and 375 H&H going for sure. The third was going to be my 458WinMag but after spending range time with the 470 Capstick I’m thinking I might take it instead! Both are great Custom Shop rifles with the 458 being a little lighter and handier with a 22” bbl but the 470 is easier to shoot with less kick for faster follow ups. Both have drop magazines that hold five rounds, both have a Leupold VX-6 1-6 firedot and irons. The 458WinMag is shooting 450gr CEB solids and the 470 500gr Barnes Banded solids
Which one do you think I should take?
458 WM
 

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