The Quality of American Firearms...

[mdwest]

thats on the buyers...

suppliers respond to the markets demand..

if there was a US market that would sustain 20+ manufacturers of london finest equivalent rifles made somewhere in middle america at a production rate of 3000 units a year.. you can guarantee someone would be stepping in to fill that market demand (or at least attempting to..)...

 

[tarbe]

That seems to be the case for lots of things these days. Do we blame the suppliers or the buyers?

It is clearly either GWB or DJT who is at fault.

They are responsible for every other bad thing that happens!

 

[bilmcc]

It is clearly either GWB or DJT who is at fault.

They are responsible for every other bad thing that happens!

They are not the only moguls around.

 

[JimP]

I look at it this way. The last 3 rifles that I have purchased will print real nice cloverleaf patterns at 200 yards with my hand loaded ammo. Each of those rifles wears a black synthetic stock and no frills. The receivers may not be a fine polished as a rifle that cost $5000 more but to me the important thing is that they shoot and they shoot very well. I don't need that $2000 wood stock, all the hand in-letting, fancy checkering and engraving. I just want a rifle that is going to shoot to my best ability and if I can get it for $500-$1000 I'll buy it every time.

 

[Spooksar]

I look at it this way. The last 3 rifles that I have purchased will print real nice cloverleaf patterns at 200 yards with my hand loaded ammo. Each of those rifles wears a black synthetic stock and no frills. The receivers may not be a fine polished as a rifle that cost $5000 more but to me the important thing is that they shoot and they shoot very well. I don't need that $2000 wood stock, all the hand in-letting, fancy checkering and engraving. I just want a rifle that is going to shoot to my best ability and if I can get it for $500-$1000 I'll buy it every time.

In fact plastic stocks and matte stainless Guns are a better choice for harsh conditions. I love my wood and polished blue Guns, but my go to hunting rifles tent to be composite stocks and cerekoted.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Some may disagree but I've proved it more than once. The number and severity of dings in any hunting rifle and scope is in direct relationship and proportional to its price.

 

[Shawn.54]

Was going to stay out of this conversation but had to give my opinion. While the craftsmanship of the European guns is outstanding in most cases the figured wood is beautiful with hand rubbed oil finish and I would love to have one or 10 but the cost is more than I can afford. Given the choice of a safe full of cheap American guns or 1 fine English rifle I’ll take the many over the few.
It was a plastic stocked silver finished rifle that introduced me to heavy medium shooting and I have not looked back.
Yes a 375 Ruger in a Mossberg Patriot got me going and that rifle will always have a home in my house. I purchased it for $375.25 out the door and would have been happy with 2” group at 100 yards well it shoots under 1” all day and if I do my job it can cut that in half.
The only trouble I have had with feeding and extraction is when I get my hand in there trying to catch that brass for reloading.
It hits where pointed and functions when asked to and I’m able to afford to use it.
Shawn

 

[Desert Dog]

Americans like to imagine that we are the only ones who are attracted to cheap rifles. This is not the case at all. I have seen MANY European common folk that hunt using CZs, Tula/Izmash rifles, and military surplus conversions - all of which are lower quality than American rifles. Especially in Eastern Europe.

The big difference that nobody really mentions; Most European hunters are in the upper financial bracket of their economy, so can afford expensive rifles. Most American hunters are in the lower financial bracket of the economy, so have to make whatever they can afford work. In most of Europe, only the "elite" hunt. In the USA and Canada, the vast majority of hunters are middle/lower class folk.

I have hunted with guys that couldn't afford bullets or gas money. You don't see that in places like Germany or England.

 

[Alistair]

The big difference that nobody really mentions; Most European hunters are in the upper financial bracket of their economy, so can afford expensive rifles.

Some are, others arent. Just thinking of those whom I know hunt at my local rifle club, I reckon we have a fair mix of classes. There are a few wealthy professionals, doctors mostly, and one, maybe two guys who are independently wealthy, but equally I know guys who work on oil rigs, an NHS pharmacist, a local gunsmith, a bloke who maintains wind farms, a chap who owns a small local tweed mill, a police diver, a couple of farmer type people, a truck mechanic, a couple servicemen and a fireman... they're not exactly the Duke of Westminster.

Plus, until recently I was shooting and hunting in the UK as a student, and all students are notoriously broke. In fact, at one point I was spending more on .270 ammo every week than on food...

The only common theme across a fair number of them is that they're generally older guys, and as a rule, older guys tend to have more expendable income.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Some are, others arent.
The only common theme across a fair number of them is that they're generally older guys, and as a rule, older guys tend to have more expendable income.

Hey, I resemble that last sentence.

 

[JPbowhunter]

I guess it depends on what people consider quality. Pretty much every gun produced these days can put 2" groups at 100 yards quite easily. If your measure of quality is simply accuracy then i spose there's no difference in any guns.

To me its a bit more than that, quality is craftsmanship, its a well built rifle and well balanced that doesn't boot like a mule and comes to the shoulder well. It's also going to last. Yeah some modern american rifles going for a few hundred bucks are shooting well enough now, but what will they be like in 50 or 100 years? We know quality european rifles 100 years old are still around and pretty much as good as the day they were made right now. Can't see that being the case with some of the stuff coming out of the states.

 

[geoff rath]

Hey, I resemble that last sentence.

Ditto ...

 

[JPbowhunter]

Sako are great rifles and in the price range for nearly every hunter, so i don't think the elitist european concept is at all a fact. a second hand sako would be often less than the price of a new lesser quality USA made gun.

 

[wesheltonj]

I will pick my SAKO's anytime against any American made gun. I have a friend who has two safes full of Remington's. He keeps telling me I need to buy Remington's. But everyone one he buys, out comes the factory trigger and in goes the Jewell tigger, glass bedding and other enhancements. But with all the work he puts into one Remington, you are almost at the cost of a SAKO, and they don't need any enhancements out of the box.

 

[geoff rath]

Pre-owned Sako prices in Australia remain high, often with five percent of new .... If you have a good'un, keep it.

 

[JPbowhunter]

Pre-owned Sako prices in Australia remain high, often with five percent of new .... If you have a good'un, keep it.

With respect I'd disagree, sure some people want stupid money but that's why they sit on used guns for so long. Ive picked up sakos from used guns in great nick for good prices, they just go quick!

 

[Opposite Pole]

Some are, others arent.

In my hunting club it's a mixed bag too. We have a property developer, a copper, retired army guy, local petrol station employee and just about everything in between. Very few expensive guns around, mostly CZs with good few not most recent of the vintage and second or third hand German guns of all flavours. In Poland most hunters are not particularly firearm obsessed (myself excluded) and CZ or Tikka seems to fit the local market well, people tend to own very few guns too. Often it's a 30-06 + 12G with a lot of older East German made SxS shotguns around. Budget American guns are not any cheaper that budget European guns here. As far as quality of budget guns goes for hunting purposes it's a bit like cars. You can drive around the town in a KIA or Bentley. They will both do the same thing as far as getting from one place to another is concerned yet there are certain differences between them. A lot of people don't care for the difference or can't afford the difference, nothing wrong with that. As long as a gun is reliable and safe it's the person pulling the trigger that makes a difference. Barrels made today are largely of very good quality, as are scopes, ammunition and components. This all makes accuracy pretty much a given. 1MOA accuracy was once a holy grail but today it seems to be pretty much a standard.

Happy trails!

 

[Newboomer]

I think a lot of it has to do with what we grew up with and what others around us had/recommended. The familiar is always comforting and usually trusted. Money is always a huge factor, too. We all drool over multi thousand dollar rifles but wind up with something we can afford. In my seven decades I've found it's not so much the machine it's the operator. I've read many threads here and regardless of price, most all rifles shoot just about the same. As long as it does the job does it really matter? Ego is fine but practicality trumps.

 

[MS 9x56]

I would like to ask, what do you think that your Steyr rifle will do that my Remington won't do?

Come to shoulder with sights aligned swinging like a fine English double shotgun catching up to the buck then passing gun goes off almost of its own volition buck falls. Not to mention it’s eye catching good looks when you take the pictures. There is no finer rifle for off hand and jump shooting animals. Then there is the fact that more than likely you would be the only one in your group using one. Other than that they are both rifles. I wouldn’t trade my MS 1905 for any other rifle. But admittedly I am biased.

 

[rookhawk]

Come to shoulder with sights aligned swinging like a fine English double shotgun catching up to the buck then passing gun goes off almost of its own volition buck falls. Not to mention it’s eye catching good looks when you take the pictures. There is no finer rifle for off hand and jump shooting animals. Then there is the fact that more than likely you would be the only one in your group using one. Other than that they are both rifles. I wouldn’t trade my MS 1905 for any other rifle. But admittedly I am biased.

Comparing a rem and a mannlicher Schoenauer is like comparing McDonalds to Peter Lugers.

I’ll leave it at that, otherwise I’d have to cover it in a 14 volume desk reference series.