The Quality of American Firearms...

[HWL]

My "American Firearm", now ready for action......

HWL

 

[Ray B]

Today, the worst Italian rifle is of light years better quality than the latest Remingtons....


HWL

This clearly undermines any opinion that HWL has regarding quality firearms since it is clear that he/she has never handled a WWII issue 6.5 Carcano- the worst firearm EVER made.

 

[Red Leg]

This clearly undermines any opinion that HWL has regarding quality firearms since it is clear that he/she has never handled a WWII issue 6.5 Carcano- the worst firearm EVER made.

I respect @HWL and his opinions - even when they are delivered with a certain irritating Teutonic finality - he at least actually handles or has owned the European rifles about which he comments. If anything is "clear" it is obvious he knows of what he speaks with respect to many continental arms. With respect to Remington, I think there are some valid arguments to make concerning the relative quality of their current production. That is worth debating. Instead, you decide to go after him personally and his opinion, and you base it on a eighty-year-old military issue rifle. I am hard pressed to understand anything a Carcano has to do with the relative quality of products currently being offered by Beretta, Perguini & Visini, Rizinni, S.I.A.C.E., etc.

 

[Red Leg]

My "American Firearm", now ready for action......


View attachment 381438

HWL

Pretty is as pretty does - how does it shoot? The one I had years ago, was quite accurate.

 

[Nevada Mike]

People buy what they want within their budgetary limitations.

I own a number of American made rifles... a Winchester M70, a Dakota 76, a Mathieu, Two Rugers (M77 and No. 1), a Remington M700 varmint rifle, and am awaiting delivery of a rifle built on a Granite Mountain Arms G33/40 Mauser action. I cannot say that I find any of them lacking in function, accuracy, or quality. For the BEST rifles, top American gunmakers deliver very high quality arms, and the 'factory' rifles are accurate right out of the box.

The only non-USA made rifle I own is a Swedish Mauser. It is also a good rifle.

Shotguns that I own include two Philly Fox guns in 16 and 20 gauge - both American made and going strong after more than 100 years. I also have shotguns from Germany, Belgium, England, and Italy. No complaints with any of them.

There are cheap guns that are made and marketed around the world, no country has a monoply on inexpensive firearms or, for that matter, on top quality firearms.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Ray B
Competiton for worst firearm ever made, hmmm, let me widen the options:
Carcano 6.5 (italian rifle)
Pistol Nambu type 94,( pistol, japanese ww2)
None of them, american.

 

[HWL]

Pretty is as pretty does - how does it shoot? The one I had years ago, was quite accurate.

All our ranges are closed, so I do not really know.

Made three shots in the forest, offhand, blowing rocks apart and it is fun.

It fits me perfect and it cycles beautyful.

Fine American Firearm


HWL

 

[HWL]

About the Carcano....

Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Tenth Edition, page 291.

"The Carcano's history has been plagued by a great deal of negative press and criticism, mainly the result of misinformation and lack of understanding of design.

The Carcano's action design is by no means weak, tests by P. O. Ackley and several others were unable to cause action failure."



HWL

 

[Ray B]

Keep digging,

 

[HWL]

Keep digging,

Keep cool....



HWL

 

[mdwest]

My first “deer” rifle was a carcano...

I can confirm.. it was horrible junk...

But... I loved that thing for about a year until I was able to get my hands on a marlin 336 in 30-30...

Because... it was MY carcano

 

[HuntingGold]

I understand completely

 

[Rule 303]

The Carcano is a revamped Mannlicher-Schonauer, I don't hear many canning them. Yes I do agree the build quality of the Italian job was lacking however as a battle rifle and that is what it is, it was reliable and it worked. Not my first choice for a battle action battle rifle. Unlike very late WW2 model K98's or Arisaka's their metallurgy was not suspect.

 

[Areaonereal]

To think..or believe..the carcano used in November 1963...with its accuracy and rapid rate of firing multiple shots by an assassin’s hand convinced the Warren Commission of the lone shooter theory is ludicrous. The President is killed by a $12.95 mail order rifle, fraud of the century upon the American people by the Warren commission. The carcano has established itself in history in many ways.

 

[MS 9x56]

@ bruce

There is no offending..... we discuss opinions....

When we look at the differences between American and European firearms industry, the Americans try to keep their products cheaper and cheaper and simpler and simpler.

After decades of doing so, there is a product, that just goes bang,.. more or less, but nothing else.

The Remington rifles are a good example... Remington changes colour of stocks and length of barrel, but nothing else,... no further developement for a better product.....for more then half a century!

Winchester gave up the finest features of their rifles....not to give a better product to the customer, but to make more profit to the owner..... no developement to a better rifle.

Marlin gave up the quality controll of their products completely.... offering a piece of §hit to the hunter.

All the fine rifles Ruger offered are gone.... just some plastics are left.

I am proud owner of 6 No.1 and 2 M77Mk2, I know, what I am talking about.

Savage,... the Model 99, finest American rifle ever, gone....

Was there ever any improvement on a Weatherby (after the Germans produced it)?

All in all..... today, they make cheap rifles for undemanding people....going bankrupt doing so.

In many European companys, philosophy is completely different.

Mauser 66, 77, 03 12, 18, Heym SR 20, SR 30, Blaser SR 830, SR 850, R93, R8, Sauer 80, 90 200, 202, 404, the SteelAction, what a glory!!!, Merkel with their Helix, Steyr.... you name it.

When ever there is a new model, you can see the improvement, real improvements, not just camoflage on the stock.

Have you ever seen, that Sako, Tikka or Husqvarna offered marginal quality?

Today, the worst Italian rifle is of light years better quality than the latest Remingtons....


Just my two cents...

HWL

I agree with most of what you list, with the exception of the Ruger comments. Have you seen or handled the wooden stocked Ruger Hawkeye African model? It is a well appointed well fitted ready for Africa firearm. Unfortunately you are correct in that there are few of these examples available. The only other recent model that comes to mind is Mossberg's Patriot Revere rifle which has a beautifully figured Turkish walnut stock with maple accents. The one my son bought in 6.5 Creedmore (ugh) shoots 1/2" groups at 100 yards. It is a beautiful rifle and extremely accurate. I live near the Remington factory and it is truly unfortunate what the incompetent management did to one of America's oldest gun makers. I do respect your opinions even when they pain me. The only European rifle I own is my 1905 Mannlicher Schoenauer which I still believe is the finest firearm ever produced.

 

[WAB]

I have had a very pleasant surprise with a Ruger No 1. @Bonk was kind enough to part with his Lipsey’s No 1 in .275 Rigby. It has very nice wood and excellent metal finish. I mounted a Swarovski Z6 ee 1-6x24 on it which results in perfect eye relief. I have sighted it in with a pet reload and am getting 1/2” or slightly better groups at 100. IMO this is a lot of rifle for the money in a truly American firearm.

Side note, I had toyed with the idea of RJ Renner treatment on the wood. However, I’ve learned the hard way that when a rifle is shooting this well, it’s best left alone!

 

[HWL]

I agree with most of what you list, with the exception of the Ruger comments. Have you seen or handled the wooden stocked Ruger Hawkeye African model?

No, I have not,... for sure, there are still a lot of fine American firearms.

Probably, most of them does not even reach the continent.


HWL

 

[Hogpatrol]

Back before background checks and when you could mail order a rifle, before Kennedy was assissinated a buddy of mine in high school bought a Carcano and dropped it on his bedroom hardwood floor. The bolt handle bent. Had to get a hammer to straighten it so it could be opened. My first and last experience with those rifles. Having said that, I have a Benelli shotgun and it's a fine piece of machinery.

 

[Rule 303]

To think..or believe..the carcano used in November 1963...with its accuracy and rapid rate of firing multiple shots by an assassin’s hand convinced the Warren Commission of the lone shooter theory is ludicrous. The President is killed by a $12.95 mail order rifle, fraud of the century upon the American people by the Warren commission. The carcano has established itself in history in many ways.

Awe come on. What was wrong with the Warren Commission? They even told people a bullet could exit a body do a right turn then a left turn in mid air and go into another body. ........ Fully believable surley.

 

[sgt_zim]

@ bruce

There is no offending..... we discuss opinions....

When we look at the differences between American and European firearms industry, the Americans try to keep their products cheaper and cheaper and simpler and simpler.

After decades of doing so, there is a product, that just goes bang,.. more or less, but nothing else.

The Remington rifles are a good example... Remington changes colour of stocks and length of barrel, but nothing else,... no further developement for a better product.....for more then half a century!

Winchester gave up the finest features of their rifles....not to give a better product to the customer, but to make more profit to the owner..... no developement to a better rifle.

Marlin gave up the quality controll of their products completely.... offering a piece of §hit to the hunter.

All the fine rifles Ruger offered are gone.... just some plastics are left.

I am proud owner of 6 No.1 and 2 M77Mk2, I know, what I am talking about.

Savage,... the Model 99, finest American rifle ever, gone....

Was there ever any improvement on a Weatherby (after the Germans produced it)?

All in all..... today, they make cheap rifles for undemanding people....going bankrupt doing so.

In many European companys, philosophy is completely different.

Mauser 66, 77, 03 12, 18, Heym SR 20, SR 30, Blaser SR 830, SR 850, R93, R8, Sauer 80, 90 200, 202, 404, the SteelAction, what a glory!!!, Merkel with their Helix, Steyr.... you name it.

When ever there is a new model, you can see the improvement, real improvements, not just camoflage on the stock.

Have you ever seen, that Sako, Tikka or Husqvarna offered marginal quality?

Today, the worst Italian rifle is of light years better quality than the latest Remingtons....


Just my two cents...

HWL

Hard to argue with your take on Remington. They built that 700 action, then haven't done shit in 50 years.

Savage may not make the #99 anymore, but they do make accurate rifles. I've owned several down through the years, when I couldn't afford better, and they were all MOA rifles out of the box. Uglier than pig turds, but they all shot true. I have a 10 yo Savage 10, the "police sniper" rifle, with 24" fluted barrel. With handloads, I regularly ring steel at 800 and 1000 yards with it. Savage has been innovating for about 20 years now, first with triggers, then bedding, now fully adjustable LOP and cheek riser. And still manages to keep retail below 1000 USD. No, new Savage 10 isn't a Sauer 404 or Merkel Helix, but it wasn't intended to be.

This is going to be funny to me, because I got blasted for being elitist on a thread over at YT WRT American rifles.

As @Red Leg pointed out, the American market is vastly different than the European market. East of the Mississippi River is about 70% of the US hunting market. While there is more public land west of there, there is still plenty of public land in the east. Literally anybody can buy a rifle, take a hunter's safety class, buy a license, and head out after white tail, black bear, or feral hogs.

Fortune rises and falls a lot in the US. 10-12 years ago, I was eating a lot of peanut butter and crackers because that's all I could afford. Today, the missus and I find ourselves in the top 5% of income earners in the country. I can now afford "better" than what I have always owned, I just haven't bought "better" yet because what I have serves my purposes.