The Big Bore Dilemma

375 is a medium bore, the 40's are large medium bores.....

375 H&H is the true all rounder legal and perfect for leopard and lion and well capable to deal with buff and the rest through to elephant and all the plains game in between.....not the caliber for the guide or PH to deal with follow ups....

So cats 375 H&H
Buffalo 404 or 416 ideal
Elephant min 458 but 500 is king...

My choices

375 H&H
404 Jeff
500/416 NE(buff or sorting out wounded lion)
500 Jeff sorting out buff and elephant when wounded
 
375 is a medium bore, the 40's are large medium bores.....

375 H&H is the true all rounder legal and perfect for leopard and lion and well capable to deal with buff and the rest through to elephant and all the plains game in between.....not the caliber for the guide or PH to deal with follow ups....

So cats 375 H&H
Buffalo 404 or 416 ideal
Elephant min 458 but 500 is king...

My choices

375 H&H
404 Jeff
500/416 NE(buff or sorting out wounded lion)
500 Jeff sorting out buff and elephant when wounded
no 470? and why so.
 
I have a 500 Jeff.

The 500/416 NE makes a lot more sense for follow up on lion and even leopard....
A PH I recently spoke with also has a 500 Jeffery, and uses it exclusively for everything. He gets called quite often for following up on wounded elephant, lion and leopard, but always uses the 500 Jeffery.

In his experience, nothing will work better than the rifle/caliber one is using all the time, as well as the heavy hitting 500 Jeffery, while he admitted it to be a bit heavy for the cats, allows him to punch through any and all brush if necessary. As long as he can determine the location of the wounded lion/leopard, there is no cover behind which the cat can hide that can deflect his shot. It will reach it's intended destination.

He was also very contrary to the .470NE as a choice for elephant, but would rather recommend a .500NE . Then again the .416 Rigby in 450grains also works well with the high SD...
 
A PH I recently spoke with also has a 500 Jeffery, and uses it exclusively for everything. He gets called quite often for following up on wounded elephant, lion and leopard, but always uses the 500 Jeffery.

In his experience, nothing will work better than the rifle/caliber one is using all the time, as well as the heavy hitting 500 Jeffery, while he admitted it to be a bit heavy for the cats, allows him to punch through any and all brush if necessary. As long as he can determine the location of the wounded lion/leopard, there is no cover behind which the cat can hide that can deflect his shot. It will reach it's intended destination.

He was also very contrary to the .470NE as a choice for elephant, but would rather recommend a .500NE . Then again the .416 Rigby in 450grains also works well with the high SD...
Understand, his to his own. I bought the 470 for Cape Buffalo primarily with an occasional Elephant down the line. Obviously PH's have different priorities/preferences.
 
Miss the brain with a .416 and one gets the same result. One has to get much heavier than a forty for KO to be a consideration on dangerous game if the shot misses what matters.

I also think your .410 analogy is wrong. It truly is a gun for experts when used on game like quail. However, the .375 will do anything a .40 will do if a premium 300 gr bullet is placed in exactly the same place - solid or SP. I know that is annoying to the forty owners (I would add that I own a .470, .404, and 500/416). Unlike a .410 in an inexperienced wing shooter's hands, the .375 is ideal for the client transitioning from his scoped deer rifle to something that will cleanly kill a buffalo or an elephant.

If you want to use a shotgun analogy, I would say that the .375 is more like a 1 ounce load from a 12 bore when used on upland game. The short shot string makes it just as effective for everything but waterfowl as a heavier load but in most shotgun configurations is far easier to use effectively. I should note that I base that on thousands of pheasants taken with an ounce of No. 6 shot.
I think the 1 0z load is possibly a better analogy, remembering that the elephant is the duck/load, tho I have killed more ducks/everything with 1 0z by far, as you have. Suppose I could better compromise with a 350 gr 375? I just feel better limiting it to buff as the gentleman I was following felt it did not perform in the same category as the PH's heavy. I remember Carmicheal stating that the difference between wounding/charging, and killing was 375 vs 458 500grain. (reloaded of course)
 

I think the 1 0z load is possibly a better analogy, remembering that the elephant is the duck/load, tho I have killed more ducks/everything with 1 0z by far, as you have. Suppose I could better compromise with a 350 gr 375? I just feel better limiting it to buff as the gentleman I was following felt it did not perform in the same category as the PH's heavy. I remember Carmicheal stating that the difference between wounding/charging, and killing was 375 vs 458 500grain. (reloaded of course)
I agree with you. The .375 is not a stopping rifle. But it is a killing rifle. Broadsword or rapier analogy that I often use.

I think a stopping rifle is a great choice for a PH. It is his job to sort out our mistakes. Our job is to present him with a few of those problems as possible. I think a true stopping rifle is generally a poor choice for most clients and most situations. Obviously, there are a number of clients who do have great proficiency with a true stopping caliber in a double rifle. Such a rifle would be a fine choice for an elephant in the hands of such an experienced hunter. But far too many are caught up in the whole African literature mystique, buy a double, shoot it relatively little and leave a mess somewhere for a PH to cleanup or prevent (that instantaneous follow-up shot). The same client, using a .375 places the crosshairs where they matter most and cleanly kills anything on his list.
 
"Not to ruffle any feathers, but I will skip over Teddy Roosevelt's darlng 405 Winchester. With it's low SD 300 grain bullets, it offers nothing over a 375, and I would even put it behind by quite a margin."

Opinions may differ. Even though my feathers remain unruffled. There is a great deal more to be considered beyond technical specs and ones personal experience.

My Winchester 1895 .405 shoots a number of different weight .411 bullets. My experience with it killing water buff with 300 grain NF and Cape buff with 400 grain Woodie bullets was rewarding. With the bullets made today, my .405 is up to taking any DG in AFRICA. It was good enough for Osa Johnson, so it should be good enough for me!
51985_600x400.jpg


This was real in the field experience and ignores technical measures like SD, velocity, and bullet weight as listed in books..
 
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"Not to ruffle any feathers, but I will skip over Teddy Roosevelt's darlng 405 Winchester. With it's low SD 300 grain bullets, it offers nothing over a 375, and I would even put it behind by quite a margin."

Opinions may differ. Even though my feathers remain unruffled. There is a great deal more to be considered beyond technical specs and ones personal experience.

My Winchester 1895 .405 shoots a number of different weight .411 bullets. My experience with it killing water buff with 300 grain NF and Cape buff with 400 grain Woodie bullets was rewarding. With the bullets made today, my .405 is up to taking any DG in AFRICA. It was good enough for Osa Johnson, so it should be good enough for me!
View attachment 499251

This was real in the field experience and ignores technical measures like SD, velocity, and bullet weight as listed in books..
I agree. A 40 caliber 400gr bullet at 1900-2000 fps will kill anything alive with the correct bullet and bullet placement. The original 450/400 ammo was said to seldom break 1900 fps when tested over a chronograph (in later years), and it was always considered adequate. Although I doubt it's more effective than a 375 H&H, being at least equal to a 375 in performance isn't exactly a bad thing.
 
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"Not to ruffle any feathers, but I will skip over Teddy Roosevelt's darlng 405 Winchester. With it's low SD 300 grain bullets, it offers nothing over a 375, and I would even put it behind by quite a margin."

Opinions may differ. Even though my feathers remain unruffled. There is a great deal more to be considered beyond technical specs and ones personal experience.

My Winchester 1895 .405 shoots a number of different weight .411 bullets. My experience with it killing water buff with 300 grain NF and Cape buff with 400 grain Woodie bullets was rewarding. With the bullets made today, my .405 is up to taking any DG in AFRICA. It was good enough for Osa Johnson, so it should be good enough for me!
View attachment 499251

This was real in the field experience and ignores technical measures like SD, velocity, and bullet weight as listed in books..
It is one of several choices that are massively upgraded by modern bullet construction, for sure.
 
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Understand, his to his own. I bought the 470 for Cape Buffalo primarily with an occasional Elephant down the line. Obviously PH's have different priorities/preferences.
470-500 I view them being very much the same..I have had both and have chosen the 500 but if my Westley Richards deal had of been in 470 I still would have bought it
 
It is amazing how these discussions eventually devolve into assumption that Deadeye Dicks use a .375 vs big bore double rifle hunters that can't hit the right side of the barn and have to depend on PHs to clean up the mess. :unsure::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
It is amazing how these discussions eventually devolve into assumption that Deadeye Dicks use a .375 vs big bore double rifle hunters that can't hit the right side of the barn and have to depend on PHs to clean up the mess. :unsure::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
I never said you couldn't hit the right side of a barn. But I bet you were aiming at the left side. :A Tease:
It's probably more to do with the use of iron sights on double rifles, than the caliber or gun itself. Truth is, by the time most people can afford to go to Africa, their eyesight isn't what it used to be. Red dot sights have definitely helped this situation quite a bit. And I'm sure you're very proficient with your rifle. But you must admit, very few people are willing to put in the time shooting a double like you have. Just watch a few elephant hunting videos and this becomes very evident.
 
A friend’s client got so flustered when facing an elephant that he didn’t clue in to the fact the the elephant had swapped ends, and he shot it right center in the ass. Sometimes it’s not the caliber at all. Funny stuff happens to folks when things get up close and personal.
 
I have been nipped by a 25-06 and have shot a 416 comfortably. Sometimes the shoulder weld isn't quite right. I will admit that a 470 is just beyond my level of recoil tolerance. Then I found shockeater recoil pads. They don't mess up your LOP and they dissipate recoil like nothing else. I shot six 470NE and one 500NE in one morning and wasn't even tender. If you like the big rounds give them a try.

 

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Big Bore Rifles. And their utility in today's Africa.

In a recent online discussion, I opined that the 375 H&H was the KING of African calibers. While my take was based more on the versatility of this great medium bore cartridge, than pure horsepower. I was challenged by a few readers, that stated the (to them) obvious conclusion, that the ole Holland and Holland was not only less than a big bore, it was also boring and mundane. The buffalo would snicker, and Mr. Jumbo would piss his pants in laughter at the mere thought of a foreigner armed with such a puny weapon. I was left in defense mode. I couldn't believe the audacity of these people questioning the validity of my favorite caliber! I mean, I love large caliber rifles as much as the next guy, but I also know they are largely unnecessary in today's world of premium bullets and limited dangerous game bag limits. One 300 grain Swift through the boiler room of Black Death, or a 350 grain solid through the brain pan of the largest bull ele, would surely answer all questions of adequacy. But for those of you that demand more, let's move up a bit in inches. The .400 plus caliber rifles await.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but I will skip over Teddy Roosevelt's darlng 405 Winchester. With it's low SD 300 grain bullets, it offers nothing over a 375, and I would even put it behind by quite a margin.

Now we enter the realm of true Buffalo smashing cartridges. Cartridges that will penetrate an Enraged bull Hippo from most any angle. But, your shoulder will deny that you've fired much more than a heavily loaded 375 when the powder ignites. We come to the 450/400 and 404 Jeffrey on the low end, then step up to the middle ground 416 Rem Mag, 416 Ruger and Rigby. This is where buffalo rifles could and probably should end. Ah....but you say...there are indeed cartridges above this power level in the 400 class. With these we get into bullet and shoulder destroying velocities. 400 grain bullets traveling at a flinch inducing 2700 fps. Enter the 416 Weatherby and it's kin. To me, once this level of recoil is reached, it's time to step up in diameter once again. The 45 caliber rifles are the next step in the upward direction.

We will start by defending a cartridge that some people love to hate. And by denouncing a cartridge that is praised by some, but in reality falls quite short of the mark in this discussion. The 458 Win Mag with today's propellants and great bullets, is where our 45 caliber discussion begins. It does not begin with the 45/70.
A 450-480 grain 45 caliber bullet traveling at a mild 2150-2250 fps should get the attention of most anything that needs attending to. And if that doesn't work out, then either run, or reach for the next group of 45s. The 458 Lott and 450 Rigby. These two are what most consider the pinnacle of big bore cartridges. (We could also throw in the 450 and 470 Nitro Express in this category.) And to most, we are on the ragged edge of controllability. We are holding a rifle that when used in the right hands, needs no besting. But then there are the people that just have to have more. For the few that can handle it, the 460 Weatherby is there. Now we are way past controllability. At this point, we may as well step up to the ultimate. Now we go to a half inch and above.

The .500 through .600 class of cartridges are really only a discussion for the professionals. This level of horsepower is of very limited use. But, when a wounded Cape Buffalo or an enraged Cow Elephant is baring down on you, you must put an abrupt halt to these types of situations. There is little room for error. There is even less time. You must stop it now! Now we are talking about the 500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs, 500 Nitro Express, 577 Nitro Express and the be all and end all 600 Nitro Express. We are propelling 570-900 grain bullets anywhere from 2050-2300 fps. Rifles that only the most determined of men can handle. Many hours of practice is needed to master this level of performance. A level of power that is actually dangerous if not handled correctly. But, when applied in the appropriate manner, has no equal.

In the end, while we could make a good argument for the utility of these big bore rifles in Africa, we could all probably agree that for most of us, the 416 and maybe the 458 caliber rifles are the biggest step needed above the grand old 375. And need...my friends...is a very subjective word.
Its also worth noting that the 450 nitro does nothing that can't be done with the much questioned 458WM, same bullets at the same velocity. In no way is it a step up in performance.
 
I started not to read this thread because I thought it had already been rehashed so much--but I was unaware that wounding was being realized through faulty big bore handling! Well, AH is sure a good place to get experienced viewpoints.
 

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idjeffp wrote on Jon R15's profile.
Hi Jon,
I saw your post for the .500 NE cases. Are these all brass or are they nickel plated? Hard for me to tell... sorry.
Thanks,
Jeff [redacted]
Boise, ID
[redacted]
African Scenic Safaris is a Sustainable Tour Operator based in Moshi, Tanzania. Established in 2009 as a family business, the company is owned and operated entirely by locals who share the same passion for showing people the amazing country of Tanzania and providing a fantastic personalized service.
FDP wrote on dailordasailor's profile.
1200 for the 375 barrel and accessories?
 
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