The Big Bore Dilemma

[Professor Mawla]

In terms of versatility ( the “ one gun safari “ philosophy ) , one simply cannot beat the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum .

In terms of sheer stopping power ( and YES . Stopping power is not a myth ) , the terminal effect of a .505 Gibbs and 600 grain North Fork Cup Point Solids on an Australian water buffalo needs to be seen to be believed .

The .400 bores ( such as the .450/400 Nitro Express or the .404 Jeffery ) and the .416 bores ( such as the .416 Rigby or the .416 Remington Magnum ) are suitable dangerous game contenders for most situations , except perhaps for stopping charges in thick cover .

I personally find the .450 bores to be absolutely ideal , for the gentleman who has to contend with dangerous game on a routine basis . Based on my personal experiences with Problem Animal Control work over the last 48 years , I have a strong preference for the .458 Winchester Magnum ( employing 500 grain bullets being propelled at a velocity of at least 2087 feet per second ) . However , there are a number of “improved “ .450 bores on the market which offer more impre ballistic traits - Namely the .458 Lott , .450 Rigby and the .450 Dakota .

 

[Dr. Crack]

In terms of versatility ( the “ one gun safari “ philosophy ) , one simply cannot beat the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum .

In terms of sheer stopping power ( and YES . Stopping power is not a myth ) , the terminal effect of a .505 Gibbs and 600 grain North Fork Cup Point Solids on an Australian water buffalo needs to be seen to be believed .

The .400 bores ( such as the .450/400 Nitro Express or the .404 Jeffery ) and the .416 bores ( such as the .416 Rigby or the .416 Remington Magnum ) are suitable dangerous game contenders for most situations , except perhaps for stopping charges in thick cover .

I personally find the .450 bores to be absolutely ideal , for the gentleman who has to contend with dangerous game on a routine basis . Based on my personal experiences with Problem Animal Control work over the last 48 years , I have a strong preference for the .458 Winchester Magnum ( employing 500 grain bullets being propelled at a velocity of at least 2087 feet per second ) . However , there are a number of “improved “ .450 bores on the market which offer more impre ballistic traits - Namely the .458 Lott , .450 Rigby and the .450 Dakota .

This is awesome to hear! Love to here from the professionals!!

 

[Professor Mawla]

This is awesome to hear! Love to here from the professionals!!

@Dr. Crack
The pleasure is mine .

 

[crs]

Kudos for praise of the .400+ bores especially with North Fork Cup Point Solids.

Enough said.

 

[steve white]

Just finished a book on PAC elephant control in 2008. The gentleman had armchair studied and come to the conclusion that 375 H&H was plenty. In practice, all four of his brain shots missed and the elephant would probably have run off if not for the PH cutting loose with a big double rifle. If you miss the brain, the 375 leaves a lot to be desired. And it won't have the KO factor to save you. I suppose it would be fine for heart shots, taking effect eventually. But a stopper...no
Then again, elephant is not in the same category as buffalo.
Not to offend anyone but I liken the 375 to the 410 shotgun in that both are an expert's round. And a novice is the one you really NEEDS the insurance of a bigger round or at least a 20 ga shot spread. Many of the experts like Pondoro Taylor who advocate the 375 were cool, professional shots with lots of experience. I say this though I own a 375!

 

[Rare Breed]

Big Bore Rifles. And their utility in today's Africa.

In a recent online discussion, I opined that the 375 H&H was the KING of African calibers. While my take was based more on the versatility of this great medium bore cartridge, than pure horsepower. I was challenged by a few readers, that stated the (to them) obvious conclusion, that the ole Holland and Holland was not only less than a big bore, it was also boring and mundane. The buffalo would snicker, and Mr. Jumbo would piss his pants in laughter at the mere thought of a foreigner armed with such a puny weapon. I was left in defense mode. I couldn't believe the audacity of these people questioning the validity of my favorite caliber! I mean, I love large caliber rifles as much as the next guy, but I also know they are largely unnecessary in today's world of premium bullets and limited dangerous game bag limits. One 300 grain Swift through the boiler room of Black Death, or a 350 grain solid through the brain pan of the largest bull ele, would surely answer all questions of adequacy. But for those of you that demand more, let's move up a bit in inches. The .400 plus caliber rifles await.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but I will skip over Teddy Roosevelt's darlng 405 Winchester. With it's low SD 300 grain bullets, it offers nothing over a 375, and I would even put it behind by quite a margin.

Now we enter the realm of true Buffalo smashing cartridges. Cartridges that will penetrate an Enraged bull Hippo from most any angle. But, your shoulder will deny that you've fired much more than a heavily loaded 375 when the powder ignites. We come to the 450/400 and 404 Jeffrey on the low end, then step up to the middle ground 416 Rem Mag, 416 Ruger and Rigby. This is where buffalo rifles could and probably should end. Ah....but you say...there are indeed cartridges above this power level in the 400 class. With these we get into bullet and shoulder destroying velocities. 400 grain bullets traveling at a flinch inducing 2700 fps. Enter the 416 Weatherby and it's kin. To me, once this level of recoil is reached, it's time to step up in diameter once again. The 45 caliber rifles are the next step in the upward direction.

We will start by defending a cartridge that some people love to hate. And by denouncing a cartridge that is praised by some, but in reality falls quite short of the mark in this discussion. The 458 Win Mag with today's propellants and great bullets, is where our 45 caliber discussion begins. It does not begin with the 45/70.
A 450-480 grain 45 caliber bullet traveling at a mild 2150-2250 fps should get the attention of most anything that needs attending to. And if that doesn't work out, then either run, or reach for the next group of 45s. The 458 Lott and 450 Rigby. These two are what most consider the pinnacle of big bore cartridges. (We could also throw in the 450 and 470 Nitro Express in this category.) And to most, we are on the ragged edge of controllability. We are holding a rifle that when used in the right hands, needs no besting. But then there are the people that just have to have more. For the few that can handle it, the 460 Weatherby is there. Now we are way past controllability. At this point, we may as well step up to the ultimate. Now we go to a half inch and above.

The .500 through .600 class of cartridges are really only a discussion for the professionals. This level of horsepower is of very limited use. But, when a wounded Cape Buffalo or an enraged Cow Elephant is baring down on you, you must put an abrupt halt to these types of situations. There is little room for error. There is even less time. You must stop it now! Now we are talking about the 500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs, 500 Nitro Express, 577 Nitro Express and the be all and end all 600 Nitro Express. We are propelling 570-900 grain bullets anywhere from 2050-2300 fps. Rifles that only the most determined of men can handle. Many hours of practice is needed to master this level of performance. A level of power that is actually dangerous if not handled correctly. But, when applied in the appropriate manner, has no equal.

In the end, while we could make a good argument for the utility of these big bore rifles in Africa, we could all probably agree that for most of us, the 416 and maybe the 458 caliber rifles are the biggest step needed above the grand old 375. And need...my friends...is a very subjective word.

Toby I have a 375 and totally agree if you will only have one rifle for Africa the 375 is king…however…you are missing the classic “mistique” value of a DR and one in 375 has no appeal for me thus my Westley Richards in 500 NE DR enters the picture. I am messing with you since I know you understand the “classic past” experience in moving beyond the most functional caliber only

 

[Red Leg]

Just finished a book on PAC elephant control in 2008. The gentleman had armchair studied and come to the conclusion that 375 H&H was plenty. In practice, all four of his brain shots missed and the elephant would probably have run off if not for the PH cutting loose with a big double rifle. If you miss the brain, the 375 leaves a lot to be desired. And it won't have the KO factor to save you. I suppose it would be fine for heart shots, taking effect eventually. But a stopper...no
Then again, elephant is not in the same category as buffalo.
Not to offend anyone but I liken the 375 to the 410 shotgun in that both are an expert's round. And a novice is the one you really NEEDS the insurance of a bigger round or at least a 20 ga shot spread. Many of the experts like Pondoro Taylor who advocate the 375 were cool, professional shots with lots of experience. I say this though I own a 375!

Miss the brain with a .416 and one gets the same result. One has to get much heavier than a forty for KO to be a consideration on dangerous game if the shot misses what matters.

I also think your .410 analogy is wrong. It truly is a gun for experts when used on game like quail. However, the .375 will do anything a .40 will do if a premium 300 gr bullet is placed in exactly the same place - solid or SP. I know that is annoying to the forty owners (I would add that I own a .470, .404, and 500/416). Unlike a .410 in an inexperienced wing shooter's hands, the .375 is ideal for the client transitioning from his scoped deer rifle to something that will cleanly kill a buffalo or an elephant.

If you want to use a shotgun analogy, I would say that the .375 is more like a 1 ounce load from a 12 bore when used on upland game. The short shot string makes it just as effective for everything but waterfowl as a heavier load but in most shotgun configurations is far easier to use effectively. I should note that I base that on thousands of pheasants taken with an ounce of No. 6 shot.

 

[grand veneur]

An eternal discussion, but I have to agree with @steve white for the most part.

Elephants are to be shot with big bore cartridges, if possible caliber 45 upwards. When one does not master such cartridges, then one shouldn't hunt elephants.

 

[TOBY458]

An eternal discussion, but I have to agree with @steve white for the most part.

Elephants are to be shot with big bore cartridges, if possible caliber 45 upwards. When one does not master such cartridges, then one shouldn't hunt elephants.

What caliber rifles have you used to shoot your elephants with?

 

[Tanks]

Big Bore Rifles. And their utility in today's Africa.
...

The .500 through .600 class of cartridges are really only a discussion for the professionals. This level of horsepower is of very limited use. But, when a wounded Cape Buffalo or an enraged Cow Elephant is baring down on you, you must put an abrupt halt to these types of situations. There is little room for error. There is even less time. You must stop it now! Now we are talking about the 500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs, 500 Nitro Express, 577 Nitro Express and the be all and end all 600 Nitro Express. We are propelling 570-900 grain bullets anywhere from 2050-2300 fps. Rifles that only the most determined of men can handle. Many hours of practice is needed to master this level of performance. A level of power that is actually dangerous if not handled correctly. But, when applied in the appropriate manner, has no equal.
...

Seeing that this thread got revived, I wanted to comment in the regards to the paragraph I quoted.

I don't think one needs to be "one of the most determined of men" to handle .5XX calibers or need many hours of practice.

Yes, one needs to be a rifleman, and be able to handle the recoil. However, your normal rifle skills do translate, so all one needs is getting used to recoil. Personally, I fire my big bores maybe a couple of hundred rounds a year and start practicing weekly about 3 months before the hunt with the rifles I am going to use. I shoot year round, but that is just normal practice.

 

[mark-hunter]

The main question, in my perspective, for a big gun at .50 cal level is this:

How many of large DG will I hunt?
Is buying the gun 50 cal, financialy wise, for one safari only?

Is it worth to make full circle, developing the load, training with gun, get used to recoil, go to Africa, shoot one and only something in life (like elephant) get home, and keep or sell the gun?
So this is the main question for 50 cal gun owners.
Those who do that, certainly evovle as rifleman, and hunters, but this is still THE question.

Or, get a step down, buy 375, and use it (frequently) for everything.

 

[grand veneur]

What caliber rifles have you used to shoot your elephants with?

460 WBY-Magnum and 12,7x70 Schüler.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Or, get a step down, buy 375, and use it (frequently) for everything

If one only plans to hunt elephant only "once", then a .458 Win or Lott in a CZ, M98, or M70 that would complement their .375 would be a great alternative. I mean buy the same model rifle in both .375 and .458. That will make practice much easier.

But then does one ever hunt elephant only once?

 

[Red Leg]

An eternal discussion, but I have to agree with @steve white for the most part.

Elephants are to be shot with big bore cartridges, if possible caliber 45 upwards. When one does not master such cartridges, then one shouldn't hunt elephants.

Well I am glad you chose to reveal that law. However, you might want to find a way to publicize it a bit more. I am confident more elephants have been taken since around 1930 with the .375 than all other calibers combined. Maybe all those successful hunters just didn't get the word.

No one is arguing that a .470, much less your Schuler, won't easily dispatch an elephant - provided the bullet is in the correct spot - that pesky requirement again. If a hunter wants to use one that is great. Indeed, an elephant is a more practical game animal to pursue with a double than a buffalo. A PH will get his client close to a pachyderm to minimize inexperience with the double or its sights. But is such a caliber or rifle design necessary - much less required - absolutely not.

 

[grand veneur]

.. I am confident more elephants have been taken since around 1930 with the .375 than all other calibers combined. Maybe all those successful hunters just didn't get the word.

...

On this occasion I would like to know how many elephants were shot by the PH rather than by the clients.

 

[TSIBINDI]

...I'd put my money on 7.62x39

 

[mark-hunter]

..I'd put my money on 7.62x39

My thought as well.... and add to this.... in burst fire mode....

 

[Tanks]

The main question, in my perspective, for a big gun at .50 cal level is this:

How many of large DG will I hunt?
Is buying the gun 50 cal, financialy wise, for one safari only?

Is it worth to make full circle, developing the load, training with gun, get used to recoil, go to Africa, shoot one and only something in life (like elephant) get home, and keep or sell the gun?
So this is the main question for 50 cal gun owners.
Those who do that, certainly evovle as rifleman, and hunters, but this is still THE question.

Or, get a step down, buy 375, and use it (frequently) for everything.

Well, I sure as heck haven't used my .500s on just one hunt.

Also, why use a .375 on plains game when there are much more suitable cartridges for that. A .375 is a compromise cartridge that can surely do all, I am not arguing that. In my view it is an overkill for PG and adequate for DG with perfect placement. However, I'd rather not compromise, so I just take the right tool for everything, a big bore for DG and a .300 magnum or smaller depending on PG.

 

[TOBY458]

On this occasion I would like to know how many elephants were shot by the PH rather than by the clients.

In today's world. I'd be willing to bet that more PH involvement is caused by clients who fail to make the first shot count with a double rifle that they aren't proficient with. Almost anyone can place an accurate brain shot with a scoped bolt gun. 300 grains in the brain is just as good as 500 grains. And much better than 500 in the trunk.

 

[Bonk]

Disclaimer: I've never even been where DG roam so my two cents on this means nothing.

Love him or hate him Boddington knows a thing or two about this subject. I was looking for info comparing 404J and 416R (Ruger, Remington or Rigby) and I found this article. I think it's a good read. The goal of my research was to try and understand why people routinely consider the 404J as the slightly less effective brother of the 416R's when in reality the SD is essentially the same, it has a slightly larger frontal area and can safely be loaded to the same velocities.

.416 - Best Bet For The Biggest Big Game - Safari Club

The morning air was chill as we poled silently down the channel, hearing the dawn chatter of birds and monkeys as we glided past palm islands. We turned a

safariclub.org

Probably the most interesting comment was this comparing the 416R's to bigger calibers:

"More to the point, in the rarified air of hunting the world’s largest game, they can out-perform the big-bore cartridges. Velocity overcomes resistance, and frontal area creates more resistance. A 400-grain .416 at 2,400 fps will generally out-penetrate, say, a 500-grain .475 bullet at 2,150 fps. Energy yield for both is 5,000 ft-lbs, always a good rule of thumb for the largest game. However, the faster .416 bullet uses its higher velocity to overcome resistance; and its smaller-diameter bullet encounters less resistance. In testing I’ve done in ballistic wax the .416s always out-penetrate the slower big-bores.

Far more importantly, I’ve seen solids from the great Nitro Express cartridges, consistently about 2,150 fps, fail to penetrate on elephant, especially with the tricky frontal brain shot. I’ve never seen a .416 solid at 2,400 fps fail to penetrate. Of course, you can increase the velocity on a big bore. The .458 Lott approaches .416 velocity; the .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum, .460 Weatherby Magnum, and behemoths like the .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs can equal (or exceed) .416 velocities. The problem is the recoil becomes too much for many of us. The .416s are much more shootable, especially in a rifle of adequate weight (ten pounds or more)."

Take from that what you will and I'm sure our more experienced members will have some definitive opinions about his comments. Pro and con.

I'm of the paper warrior opinion that something in the .411-.423 range is a noticeably better choice than 375H&H if you want a true all around rifle that can also serve as a 'stopper'. They can be loaded to similar velocities as 375H&H, have more frontal area, and use bigger bullets. All this while retaining a reasonable degree of shootability for most of us.

I've owned 458WM and still own 375H&H and 404J. The difference in recoil is noticeable between them. The 375H&H is very manageable, the 404J a bit more but well within the margin of comfort and, finally, the 458WM was about as much as I want to deal with. It's not awful but my daily limit of 458WM was about 12-15 rounds. If something big and mean was coming after me I think 458WM is about as big a caliber as I could shoot effectively. I'm also convinced I'd be more effective with a 404J/416R because I'm much more comfortable shooting them than a 458WM. Based on this thread and a little research my beloved 375H&H suddenly seems a bit light if things were to get interesting.

Again, the only DG I've ever encountered were in a zoo and the most dangerous thing to ever come after me was a pissed off drunken barmaid. We later dated but I digress....