Starting to look for my first Double for Buffalo and need some advice from folks smarter than me...

[Alaskajt]

I am starting my research on a double. I have looked at Heym and some modern rifles on line ( no dealers around) . I may want to consider an older one for nostalgic reasons of wondering where the rifle has been and the stories if it could talk.

i have done a lot of hunting in Alaska and been to Africa once (plains game) and do the best i can to watch You tube and lots of videos. To date the largest calibers I have shot regularly are 375, 338 and 8MM magnum. All very light mountain guns. I have never had the pleasure of holding a double. (Alaska is not that kind gun of place to have a few around).

Back to the videos... I see a fair number of clients whiff or do some poor shooting inside 50 yards... due to nerves? due to recoil? or both... I was thinking of going with a 400 Jeffery in something, as I would rather shoot it accurately as I can vs buying a gun and having a problem with the recoil, since i cant try any of them.

Any thoughts on the above or where a gun like this could be found would be appreciated from aficionados and more experienced folks would be appreciated.

JT

 

[chashardy]

You are going to get a lot of advice on this topic. First, what is your budget? Second, are you going to hunt buffalo or other dangerous game on a regular basis, or is this a "one and done" buffalo hunt?
The answer to these questions will shape your selection process. Caliber is important, but budget and frequency of use will also figure into caliber choice. For example, if you go for a 470 NE or 500NE, you probably won't use the rifle for much hunting other than buffalo or elephant or hippo.
My first--and so far only--double is a Chapuis 375 H&H. I've used it on buffalo, but also on lots of other game from wart hog to nyala. It's more versatile and easier to shoot that the big boomers.
I opted for a bolt action in 416 Rigby for the same reason. Again, I've taken two buffalo with it, but also roan, golden wildebeest, impala and zebra. It's a more versatile rifle than a 500NE double, though obviously you could shoot any plains game animal with a 500NE double, if you don't have to shoot very far. When I get another double for an elephant hunt I will likely go for another Chapuis in 470NE.

Having said all that, your focus on a 404 Jeff is a good idea. It's a good round for buffalo, though ammo is sometimes hard to find. You could use it in Alaska on moose and bear. I think Heym makes a double in 404 Jeff, but not sure. Heym doubles are also hard to find with new orders taking quite a while to complete. New price will be around $20,000 depending on wood, engraving, etc. A comparable Chapuis will be about $15,000, and they are available from your nearest Beretta dealer.
You might want to look at a second hand double and champlinarms.com in Enid, Oklahoma and williamlarkinmoore.com in Phoenix both have good inventory. I purchased my Chapuis second hand online from williamlarkinmoore.com and I have really enjoyed shooting it on four African safaris. No issues.
Good luck.

 

[Alaskajt]

Thanks for the quick reply... good questions, i should have added more detail. i could spend 10-20k US on it maybe it bit more if the value was there. I will probably go a couple times and pass the rifle to my son... I am currently 55 and close to retirement. If life allowed i may pursue Hippo or Elephant but it may not happen as well, hard to say right now.

More looking at the 400 Jeffery at the moment than the 404 but i have looked hard at that as well.

Thanks for the tips on where to start looking at them.

JT

 

[ActionBob]

Thanks for the quick reply... good questions, i should have added more detail. i could spend 10-20k US on it maybe it bit more if the value was there. I will probably go a couple times and pass the rifle to my son... I am currently 55 and close to retirement. If life allowed i may pursue Hippo or Elephant but it may not happen as well, hard to say right now.

More looking at the 400 Jeffery at the moment than the 404 but i have looked hard at that as well.

Thanks for the tips on where to start looking at them.

JT

In a double, rather than 404 Jeffrey (or not sure what a 400 Jeffrey is?) You should be looking at a 450/400NE 3", or on an older gun you may need to go to a 450/400NE 3.25". These are rimmed cartridges made for double rifles. The 404 Jeffrey has ballistics very close to the 450/400 NE. But the 404 Jeffrey is designed for bolt guns.... not that it won't work in double. But you want a 450-400

For a quality new double at lower end of average cost but with top build quality, look at a Chapuis as mentioned above. The model Elan in 450-400 or the new Iphisi in 375HH is a value gun with quality build.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.450/400 Nitro Express 3” is an excellent caliber for Cape buffalo. Especially when loaded with the 400Gr Barnes TSX all copper hollow point.

Are you looking for something like this ?

Presentation Grade Game Scene Engraved WJ Jeffery 450-400 3” Nitro Express Boxlock Double Rifle - Prewar

Presentation Grade Game Scene Engraved WJ Jeffery 450-400 3” Nitro Express Boxlock Double Rifle - Prewar for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

New .450/400 Nitro Express 3” double rifles are offered by:
Heym (https://www.heymusa.com/rifles/89b.html)
Merkel (https://www.merkel-die-jagd.de/en/products/guns/safari-db-160ae/)
Kreighoff (https://www.krieghoff.com/firearm/classic-big-five-double-rifle/)
John Rigby & Co. (https://www.johnrigbyandco.com/guns/the-rising-bite/the-rising-bite-configurator/)

Out of these, I like Heym the most.

The reason that a lot of clients (especially those armed with double rifles) shoot poorly is principally because of:
1) Recoil- A lot of these hunters have seldom used calibers larger than some form of .30 caliber for all of their domestic hunting. They invariably buy the big bore double rifle just for their African safari and don’t have enough time to practice recoil mitigation properly.
2) Accuracy: A lot of these hunters are accustomed to shooting telescopic sighted bolt action rifles for all of their domestic hunting. Therefore, they just don’t usually have the kind of practice that one needs for shooting a double rifle (instinctive shooting over iron sights).

Add to this, most big bore double rifles are seldom built to produce accurate results beyond 50 yards. For this reason, 1st time client hunters are invariably advised to always bring a scope sighted bolt action .375 Holland & Holland Magnum for all of their African big game hunting. It is boring, but extremely practical. It’s also the closest thing to the kind of rifle that most American hunters are used to shooting for their domestic hunting purposes.

 

[BnC 04]

My #1 suggestion is handle as many doubles made by the various makers you can. Better yet get fitted and atleast you will know what your proper length of pull "should" be and go from there.
Visiting in person with George owner of Champlin Firearms in Oklahoma is worth the weight in gold.
Best of luck on your journey towards a double. Beware owning one becomes addictive and next thing you know you will be on the prowl for your 2nd.

 

[DieJager]

450/400NE 3

It is also called the 400 Jeffery. Same cartridge.

 

[spike.t]

Think by the 400 Jeffery you mean the 450/400 3 inch

.400 Jeffery Nitro Express - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I looked at a couple of chapuis in this cal at SCI this year and was very impressed. I am sure that @Tom Leoni can give you more info. If I can make it happen in next couple of years I will probably try to get one myself. And Tom was great to chat to....its also a nice medium cal that you could use more generally, and can be used on ele....I know one of the older zim phs who I don't think hunts anymore, but he used one when he was in national parks there on ele culls and also used it later as his rifle when a pH.
Heym also are very nice but as has been said there appears to be a long wait for a new one....old doubles are nice but have them checked out carefully if you choose to buy one

 

[sureshot375]

I think for a client double .500/.416 is hard to beat. .450/.400 is very similar just a fuzz slower.

Double rifles are much harder to shoot accurately compared to a scoped bolt rifle. Many people get them because they are cool, but struggle to effectively get shots on target in hunting situations. Becoming proficient with a double requires significant effort.

I’m a fan of Krieghoff and Heym for modern production guns. I also have a VC over under in .450/.400 that’s pretty sweet for the money.

 

[Captain Munro]

Heym 89B in 450, 470, or 500 just for shits and gigs! I speak with no authority on the subject, but the Heym 89B just spoke to me when I was at DSC in 2022. My initials are also JT, so there is that.

 

[375Fox]

I can’t give any advice on a double, but for your question on poor shooting you may find this article interesting.

Is Bigger Always Better?

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette. A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture): Let me know your thoughts....

www.africahunting.com

 

[ActionBob]

It is also called the 400 Jeffery. Same cartridge.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Rare Breed]

I am starting my research on a double. I have looked at Heym and some modern rifles on line ( no dealers around) . I may want to consider an older one for nostalgic reasons of wondering where the rifle has been and the stories if it could talk.

i have done a lot of hunting in Alaska and been to Africa once (plains game) and do the best i can to watch You tube and lots of videos. To date the largest calibers I have shot regularly are 375, 338 and 8MM magnum. All very light mountain guns. I have never had the pleasure of holding a double. (Alaska is not that kind gun of place to have a few around).

Back to the videos... I see a fair number of clients whiff or do some poor shooting inside 50 yards... due to nerves? due to recoil? or both... I was thinking of going with a 400 Jeffery in something, as I would rather shoot it accurately as I can vs buying a gun and having a problem with the recoil, since i cant try any of them.

Any thoughts on the above or where a gun like this could be found would be appreciated from aficionados and more experienced folks would be appreciated.

JT

I have now owned five. It is addictive! There are three very important things to know: 1. Getting the perfect fit such as LOP. 2. Making sure the weight of the rifle matches the caliber…for example big mistake getting a 470 NE weighing 9 pounds…will kick you to death. 3. Knowing even with the first two how much recoil is too much for you so that you don’t enjoy shooting the gun. I have owned 450-400, 470 and 500 all NE. I decided to stick with the 470. However I highly recommend the 450-400 as the lowest recoil that will take any animal on this earth. You can buy one new for about $14,000 US. A used on is between $10-$12,000. Good luck!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

I have now owned five. It is addictive! There are three very important things to know: 1. Getting the perfect fit such as LOP. 2. Making sure the weight of the rifle matches the caliber…for example big mistake getting a 470 NE weighing 9 pounds…will kick you to death. 3. Knowing even with the first two how much recoil is too much for you so that you don’t enjoy shooting the gun. I have owned 450-400, 470 and 500 all NE. I decided to stick with the 470. However I highly recommend the 450-400 as the lowest recoil that will take any animal on this earth. You can buy one new for about $14,000 US. A used on is between $10-$12,000. Good luck!!!

I should have mentioned my pricing refers to a. Chapuis

 

[MRBlack]

I’ll likely reiterate what others have said above. When it comes to doubles, buy once, cry once.

Makers-
My top brands, in order, would be Heym, Chapuis, and Merkel. I have owned both a Merkel and a Heym and handled several Chapuis. Heym is certainly a step above the Merkel. Chapuis are arguably the best value double available. I have a Heym and will likely never own another unless it is a Heym. That being said, all there are good guns but I would prefer a Heym, and if not a Heym a Chapuis.

Cartridge-
This boils down to intended use. Both my double have been in 500 NE, but they have a specific use- buffalo and one day elephant. I’m my search I spoke with Chris Sells of Heym, JJ Perodeau, and George Caswell of Champlin. Chris mentioned the 450/400 and I am a believer it is arguably the best for everything up to elephant. JJ said simply, if elephant is on the menu, 500 NE. I’m sure a 470 has killed more elephants than the 500, but it is a real killer. The 450/400 was Pondoro’s ideal buffalo cartridge. With advances in bullet technology, cartridges are only better today than they were 50-100 years ago. If I thought I would hunt an elephant one day- 470 or 500. If I wasn’t sure, 450/400.

Sellers-
If new, Chris Sells all the way if Heym and George Caswell all the way if Chapuis. If used, only buy from a reputable dealer or member here. Regulation is a real deal so watch for what ammo it’s regulated with. I bought my NOS Heym from Ralf Martini and was beyond satisfied. Other good used sellers would be JJ, George, and Ralf. I’ve never used Steve Barnett, but have only heard great things.

All in all, buy a good one from and good seller. Make sure you like it, and shoot the heck out of it. Doubles are fun, make sure you have fun every step of the process.

 

[Tanks]

Thanks for the quick reply... good questions, i should have added more detail. i could spend 10-20k US on it maybe it bit more if the value was there. ...

For that budget I am sure you can find a nice Heym 88B. I paid middle of that range for my almost new (owner fired 12 shots before selling it) 88B in .500 NE. Have seen several in the $14K - $18K range on gunsinternational web site in the past. In regard to cartridge, caliber matters, so biggest you think you can handle, and with proper technique one can handle almost anything.

Keep searching that site.

 

[AimSmall]

Recently rode this pony. All above advice seems sound. For me, a 470 Sabatti was the perfect 'starter' double. Added red dot and a recoil reducer for proper weight. Seems to shoot fine.

 

[Alaskajt]

I can’t give any advice on a double, but for your question on poor shooting you may find this article interesting.

Is Bigger Always Better?

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette. A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture): Let me know your thoughts....

www.africahunting.com

Nice article and you make valid points to what i am seeing to some extent. Thank you.

JT

 

[Rare Breed]

Bottom line…if you can’t shoot it don’t use it

 

[358 Norma]

Champlin's arms has a used Heym professional hunter 88 470 Nitro in stock right now, call and ask for George and he can set you up.