Starting to look for my first Double for Buffalo and need some advice from folks smarter than me...

[Rare Breed]

I am starting my research on a double. I have looked at Heym and some modern rifles on line ( no dealers around) . I may want to consider an older one for nostalgic reasons of wondering where the rifle has been and the stories if it could talk.

i have done a lot of hunting in Alaska and been to Africa once (plains game) and do the best i can to watch You tube and lots of videos. To date the largest calibers I have shot regularly are 375, 338 and 8MM magnum. All very light mountain guns. I have never had the pleasure of holding a double. (Alaska is not that kind gun of place to have a few around).

Back to the videos... I see a fair number of clients whiff or do some poor shooting inside 50 yards... due to nerves? due to recoil? or both... I was thinking of going with a 400 Jeffery in something, as I would rather shoot it accurately as I can vs buying a gun and having a problem with the recoil, since i cant try any of them.

Any thoughts on the above or where a gun like this could be found would be appreciated from aficionados and more experienced folks would be appreciated.

JT

Ralf Martini in Canada has a Heym 88B in 500 NE for sale for $10,500 US

 

[Wahoo]

In addition I believe (as of about 2-3 weeks ago anyway) JJ Perodeau has a nice 88b also in .470 available from a member here that seems to be in your price range.

 

[Safari Dave]

Heym fan here (88b Safari - .470 NE) - I've owned it for over 22 years. Special-ordered through New England Custom Guns with a consecutively serial numbered left hand version for my best friend (He paid for both of them, but I had to do the leg work - I'll take that deal any day!).


When buying a DR, make sure it fits you or, when buying used, make sure it can be made to fit you.


Go to a high-end dealer or specialty gunsmith and pay them whatever it takes to make all the correct measurements. (Just like the Rx on glasses).

Almost all "factory" rifles and shotguns are made for men 5'10" tall who weigh about 190 pounds. If you vary much from that, don't expect a "factory" rifle to fit you properly. Having proper fit makes all the difference in the world with a competition shotgun. It also makes a big difference with a DR.

Felt-recoil, handling, swing and even injury from recoil from the "big-boys" happens with an ill fitted gun.

Don't make the mistake of buying what looks like a deal on a DR from GunBroker, only to find out that it was made for a guy who was 4'11 and weighed-in at 125!

 

[Rem700stw]

I would recommend you decide what YOU WANT first. Then be patient and check every possible outlet daily. Be patient and willing to wait for the one your heart desires.

My favorite is a W. J. Jeffery 450-400 3 inch. I purchased it on an internet auction. I then sent it to J.J. Perodeau for some fine tuning and to correct a couple of issues it had. I hand loaded to regulate the gun and it is an absolute dream. The price I paid plus the work done fit your budget and it has a certain panache that sets it apart.

I am taking it to Africa later this month for Cape Buffalo.

 

[Ray B]

With regard to cartridge selection, my preference is to choose the cartridge that you think will be best for the game you intend to hunt and then handload, starting with light loads and work-up to full loads. In a double rifle these light loads will likely be way off target, because the gun will be regulated for full loads. don't worry about hitting things yet. You are getting to know the rifle. shooting lower powered loads until you can comfortably and confidently shoot the rifle. then increase either by several grains of bullet or by a hundred to two fps, repeat process. when you reach full loads, then see where the bullets are going and if both barrels shoot to the same location, adjust your sights and you're ready to go.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Why is it so difficult to find actual prices for double rifles on their manufacturer sites?

 

[Sourdough]

@Alaskajt I encourage you to go the nostalgia way by choosing a double from years gone by. It's a fantastic choice. My first double is a VC 500NE which I love.

My third double was a Kriegoff 500NE which I just didn't care for so gave away to a good friend. Just a personal choice, nothing more.

My second, and favorite is my 1910 W.J. Jeffery 475 No 2 Jeffery. I've taken two of the Big 5 with it, Lion and Rhino (there I said it) and next year will take my second elephant and second buffalo with it- leaving only a leopard. I think it will be super cool to have taken all of them with this gun.

Some old doubles have cheek pieces some don't.

Some old doubles have a slight cast left or right, some don't. If you are a right hand shooter be sure the one you pick either has no cast or a right cast.

Be sure it has a length of pull that fits you, it doesn't need to be exact. If it's too far off changing the butt pad might get it where you want.

You'll have choices that are extractor guns and others that are ejectors. Ejectors will be faster to reload but only a second or two. My VC has ejectors, my Jeffery extractors. Both the lion and rhino I killed with a single shot so a moot point so far for me.

As far as caliber if you are not a reloader then keep to one that you can readily buy ammo for. Currently that's likely 450/400 3" (400 Jeffery), 470NE, 500NE.

Be sure the gun you choose has a proper weight, so for these three 10.5lbs, 11lbs, 11.5lbs (approx). Makes a huge difference for felt recoil.

Unless you plan on shooting a lot of Elephant you can drop the 500NE from your search if you want. If you think you might be recoil sensitive then go with the 400 Jeffery. Otherwise the 470NE might be your sweet spot.

As far as practicing, if you are a bird hunter with a single trigger you'll need a lot of practice going from the front trigger to the back for the second shot. Otherwise after shooting a few rounds to confirm zero(ish) most practice can be dry fire unless you just like shooting the double.

If you don't shoot a lot of open sight guns then you'll want a lot of practice here, but it doesn't have to be with the double, any open sight gun will suffice. For the first shot, as long as you don't flinch, you hold the gun steady, and you squeeze the trigger, it won't matter if it's a 22LR or a 500NE. Now the second shot...well...

Double gun hunting is a hoot. I really enjoy getting in really close and shooting off-hand as opposed to off sticks. I'm sure you'll enjoy it as well. Good luck on your search.

Three websites I watch for old doubles are:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/double-rifles-english.c286_p1_o6.cfm

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30&GunStyleID=3
(he might not actually have a gun he has listed- so be sure and call if interested)

https://stevebarnettfineguns.com/double-rifles

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I would recommend you decide what YOU WANT first. Then be patient and check every possible outlet daily. Be patient and willing to wait for the one your heart desires.

My favorite is a W. J. Jeffery 450-400 3 inch. I purchased it on an internet auction. I then sent it to J.J. Perodeau for some fine tuning and to correct a couple of issues it had. I hand loaded to regulate the gun and it is an absolute dream. The price I paid plus the work done fit your budget and it has a certain panache that sets it apart.

I am taking it to Africa later this month for Cape Buffalo.

Hi Rem, please keep us abreast of this developing safari. Thanks, Kevin

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hi @Alaskajt I am no double expert, but I have made a few mistakes and a success, so for what it is worth, here is my two cents:
A double is about enjoyment, pure and simple, and recoil you don't like is not enjoyable. The double you end up with is a big deal, it has to be exactly right, not 95% right, but 100% right. It goes without saying that it has to be utterly functional, to fit you perfectly, to be attractive to you, to be perfect for the median of game you are after and capable of the extremes you may just want to take just once or twice.

This is a big ask, yes? No it is not, just obey a few guide lines and you will get there.

On the quality of the double my choice is Heym, because I have studied how they work and examined their workmanship. It is absolute. I own one now and it is 100% right.

On the form or looks, it is the 89b, it is as elegant as any, to me anyway, and an ugly double is a travesty. I went for the unadorned simplicity with just edge engraving. Up to you.

On fit, get measured and they will make it for you. A badly fitting double is a huge disappointment that you will never get to like and nothing excuses it. A perfectly fitting double is heaven.

On calibre, I think that the median double is a 375 Flanged Magnum. It will indeed take buffalo and an elephant, but if the vast majority of what you are after is PG and North American species then it is ideal. Heym produces it in it's small frame 89b, around 8 pounds, add scope mounts from the factory and a QD scope and you have a beautiful, easy carry, light recoiling double that will make you smile a lot. It will shoot accurately out to PG range.

Next up in scale is Heym's 89b in the Africa frame and the 450/400 3inch is a perfect balance. More horsepower, more recoil but for me it is manageable, but my upper limit. If you are after a lot of PG put a scope on it too.

You are not a PH stopping charges that are infinitely less likely to happen if you shoot your double really well. So do you really need anything heavier?

 

[uplander01]

If your budget is up to 20k that gives you a lot of room. If you are a hand loader I would go vintage double, you can get a lot for your money with 20k as a budget. If you’re not a hand loader I would go chapuis or Heym regulated for current ammunition options. If you don’t have the capability to regulate your own ammo vintage double is really just out of the question if you plan to shoot it much.

and as far as caliber, 450-400 or 470, they are both very shootable, 500’s whether it be in a double or a bolt rifle are more than most can handle and not really practical for the average guy.

you mention passing on to your son….if that’s the case-vintage, will never be worth less than what you pay for it. There is some really good stuff out on the market right now (albeit not as much as a year ago).

 

[Mountaineer]

I know very little about double rifles. So I’ll tell you my story. I know the 375 h&h is all the recoil I’m comfortable with. I shot gun hunt with an over and under. Putting these two together I watched until I found a 375 o/u heavily engraved. I shot it a few times and then went hunting. Missed a couple deer. Had the triggers worked, shot a hundred plus rounds and killed a couple bucks with it. My advice is buy something you will shoot hundreds of times and hunt with a bunch before you head to Africa with a double. My double and I are headed to Africa in August.

 

[Rubberhead]

The four M's of shooting doubles are Mechanics, Muscle Memory and Mentality.

If you haven't shot doubles a lot, it's hard to develop the 4Ms for just one hunt, especially a DG hunt, but I love the idea. I'd want to hunt a buffalo with a double rifle too.

My suggestion is once you find your rifle, start looking for a cheap shotgun in the same configuration and start shooting birds and skeet with it. This will help you develop the 4Ms necessary before your DG hunt...

(BTW - I just made up the 4Ms but I do think the shotgun idea is sage advice)...

 

[AZDAVE]

You have been given so solid advice, a nice 450/400, 375 H&H, 9.3x74 (Depending on country you plan to hunt buffalo) would work for you. You will need to shoot your new double a fair amount to get proficient with it. There are several threads on AH for shooting doubles. You can find a nice (Hyem, Krieghoff, Chapuis and Verrney Carron ) in your price range and enough ammo to practice . Then go hunt your buff.

 

[Beck]

You are going to get a lot of advice on this topic. First, what is your budget? Second, are you going to hunt buffalo or other dangerous game on a regular basis, or is this a "one and done" buffalo hunt?
The answer to these questions will shape your selection process. Caliber is important, but budget and frequency of use will also figure into caliber choice. For example, if you go for a 470 NE or 500NE, you probably won't use the rifle for much hunting other than buffalo or elephant or hippo.
My first--and so far only--double is a Chapuis 375 H&H. I've used it on buffalo, but also on lots of other game from wart hog to nyala. It's more versatile and easier to shoot that the big boomers.
I opted for a bolt action in 416 Rigby for the same reason. Again, I've taken two buffalo with it, but also roan, golden wildebeest, impala and zebra. It's a more versatile rifle than a 500NE double, though obviously you could shoot any plains game animal with a 500NE double, if you don't have to shoot very far. When I get another double for an elephant hunt I will likely go for another Chapuis in 470NE.

Having said all that, your focus on a 404 Jeff is a good idea. It's a good round for buffalo, though ammo is sometimes hard to find. You could use it in Alaska on moose and bear. I think Heym makes a double in 404 Jeff, but not sure. Heym doubles are also hard to find with new orders taking quite a while to complete. New price will be around $20,000 depending on wood, engraving, etc. A comparable Chapuis will be about $15,000, and they are available from your nearest Beretta dealer.
You might want to look at a second hand double and champlinarms.com in Enid, Oklahoma and williamlarkinmoore.com in Phoenix both have good inventory. I purchased my Chapuis second hand online from williamlarkinmoore.com and I have really enjoyed shooting it on four African safaris. No issues.
Good luck.

He is talking about .450/.400 NE (.400 Jeff) - not .404 Jeffery

 

[Philip Glass]

I am starting my research on a double. I have looked at Heym and some modern rifles on line ( no dealers around) . I may want to consider an older one for nostalgic reasons of wondering where the rifle has been and the stories if it could talk.

i have done a lot of hunting in Alaska and been to Africa once (plains game) and do the best i can to watch You tube and lots of videos. To date the largest calibers I have shot regularly are 375, 338 and 8MM magnum. All very light mountain guns. I have never had the pleasure of holding a double. (Alaska is not that kind gun of place to have a few around).

Back to the videos... I see a fair number of clients whiff or do some poor shooting inside 50 yards... due to nerves? due to recoil? or both... I was thinking of going with a 400 Jeffery in something, as I would rather shoot it accurately as I can vs buying a gun and having a problem with the recoil, since i cant try any of them.

Any thoughts on the above or where a gun like this could be found would be appreciated from aficionados and more experienced folks would be appreciated.

JT

I highly recommend planning a visit to the hunting shows so that you can handle the doubles and visit with the reps. Any way you do this it is a major purchase.
I have just gone down from the .470 to the .450/400. Just as you mention, I did this to be able to shoot more accurately.

 

[Tanks]

...

My suggestion is once you find your rifle, start looking for a cheap shotgun in the same configuration and start shooting birds and skeet with it. This will help you develop the 4Ms necessary before your DG hunt...
...

That is the advice @Red Leg gave me a few years ago when I got my first double. Now, let me warn you. Shotgun sports and bird hunting are addictive, to date I have spent tens of thousands on shotguns and clay shooting. Just came back from a 3 day dove hunting in Argentina, will be going back next year for sure it was a hoot.

 

[HankBuck]

You are going to get a lot of advice on this topic. First, what is your budget? Second, are you going to hunt buffalo or other dangerous game on a regular basis, or is this a "one and done" buffalo hunt?
The answer to these questions will shape your selection process. Caliber is important, but budget and frequency of use will also figure into caliber choice. For example, if you go for a 470 NE or 500NE, you probably won't use the rifle for much hunting other than buffalo or elephant or hippo.
My first--and so far only--double is a Chapuis 375 H&H. I've used it on buffalo, but also on lots of other game from wart hog to nyala. It's more versatile and easier to shoot that the big boomers.
I opted for a bolt action in 416 Rigby for the same reason. Again, I've taken two buffalo with it, but also roan, golden wildebeest, impala and zebra. It's a more versatile rifle than a 500NE double, though obviously you could shoot any plains game animal with a 500NE double, if you don't have to shoot very far. When I get another double for an elephant hunt I will likely go for another Chapuis in 470NE.

Having said all that, your focus on a 404 Jeff is a good idea. It's a good round for buffalo, though ammo is sometimes hard to find. You could use it in Alaska on moose and bear. I think Heym makes a double in 404 Jeff, but not sure. Heym doubles are also hard to find with new orders taking quite a while to complete. New price will be around $20,000 depending on wood, engraving, etc. A comparable Chapuis will be about $15,000, and they are available from your nearest Beretta dealer.
You might want to look at a second hand double and champlinarms.com in Enid, Oklahoma and williamlarkinmoore.com in Phoenix both have good inventory. I purchased my Chapuis second hand online from williamlarkinmoore.com and I have really enjoyed shooting it on four African safaris. No issues.
Good luck.

I would 2nd a vote for the .470NE — but I’m one of the “least experienced” African Hunters on this Forum....there are many more & better experts to consult with then me on a double rifle. I still own my .470NE Chapuis from my one & only Safari (Tanzania hunt 15 years ago) - love it....I Must Love it - all I do now is take it out of my safe, admire & clean it.
I chose the .470NE for Buffalo but had hoped to add Elephant and Lion a few years down the road (never happened). If my only game was Buffalo - might of gone with a .416 Rigby. My thought in picking that gun: 1). I could afford the Chapuis $15k vs. a used Rigby $68k or newer Holland & Holland $100k+. I liked the “look” of the Chapuis more then other ‘affordable’ Doubles (Kreigoff or Merkle) although looks are Unimportant to some (not me). I already had a .375 bolt action that is adequate for Buffalo but I “wanted” a double rifle. I figured the .470NE was a “classic” caliber with 100 year of History and still going strong - must be a reason?? Also, was told ammo easier to locate (even in Africa) then some other big bore calibers. As far as recoil - it gets my attention but I was ble to shoot it very well in Practice, off the sticks, off hand 50-100 yrds... I tried to set the gun up for a lifetime “heirloom” quality gun - detachable scope mounts that were custom made to return to zero, exhibition grade wood, LH cheek piece, modest engraving. The gun came out perfect - me “less so”. On my actual hunt - I was Not as good shooting it as I was in practice and guess “excitement” was the reason....but that was my fault - the gun was flawless and 1” MOA at 50 yrds, 1.5” out to 100 yrds. I later added a mercury recoil suppressor in the butt stock and that tamed it down a bit. While I considered getting my double in .416 Rigby I decided that I wanted bigger - mostly for if I ever went for Elephant and that kept me pointed to the .470NE.
Since the Safari I’ve only shot my .470NE Chapuis a few times but still enjoy owning it (for now). I can also “create” a reason to hunt with it - Black Bear hunt over bait ? and I did shoot one deer with it - on my Farm during early part of rifle season - warm sunny day...reminded me of Africa and might be as close as I get !!

 

[Beck]

I am no expert on doubles, but I do own one. Just a word of advice, they are a horse of a different color. I generally shoot handloads, but not in my double - haven't been able to get handloads to regulate like factory loads. Also mounting the red dot site was a complete fiasco. Best of luck.

 

[Beck]

Also, if I could do it over again, I would have spent the extra money for a Heym. I am not in love with the safety on my Krieghoff.

 

[Ray B]

I generally shoot handloads, but not in my double - haven't been able to get handloads to regulate like factory loads.

A double rifle is regulated to shoot both barrels to the same location. This regulation will be specific to a bullet weight and velocity with some variation due to bullet construction and pressure curve.
But in general, the barrels will put bullets of different loadings with a fair degree of accuracy to a spot unique to each barrel. That is, a double rifle may be regulated to shoot 500 grain bullets at 2100 fps from both barrels to a 3" spot at 50 yards, that rifle may shoot a 500 grain bullet at 1400 fps or a 350 grain bullet at 2100 fps equally accurately for each barrel. The two barrels will shoot to different locations, but each barrel will shoot to an entirely predictable location. With that in mind I will search for loads that are accurate for the individual barrels. The search is part of getting to know the personality of the rifle and building a relationship with it- which sounds awfully touchy-feelie- but then, I like my Rigby a lot more than most people that I know.