Semi-Autos and Public Ranges

[Ontario Hunter]

Screening the stalls would make sense and it would also greatly reduce noise. Seems like a good idea. The safety angle should ensure it gets done. Send a letter to the owners via fax putting them on notice that this is a hazard. That pretty much ensures they have to do something or their insurance will have an out for not covering any damage caused thereby, i.e. hot brass (or a hot fist) hitting someone in the eye. Gotta document these complaints. Phone calls are a waste of electricity.

 

[mark-hunter]

So if you've borne with my rant this far, I have a question for you. If you shoot at a range where this problem I've described with flying brass isn't a problem, please explain the range setup. For instance, is there a separate range for autos? Or maybe they require auto shooters to use some sort of screen?

I do a bit of coaching in my club.
Till 2018, not much isuue, because as per then-law, we were not allowed to own semi auto rifle that "resembles" automatic rifle.
So, nobody owned ar15 or ak47 in semi auto version. But there were SKS, or Yugo dragunov clones, and occasional hunting semi auto, such as browning bar, or benelli.
After 2018, the law changed, and any semi auto rifle type became legal.
This boosted sales of ar15 type rifles, and to minor extent ak47 in semi auto configuration.

So, when organizing a training, depending a situation:
2 shooters:
Bolt action on the left, semi auto on the right.
More shooters, and range is very wide, give them more space between each other
More - more shooters: next session for semi auto, next session for bolt action.

First technical solution:
In this kind of problem as you described, if I am the owner of the range I would put screens or paravanes between each line - same as it is standard for pistol ranges.
(expense goes on range owner)

Second solution, is to make mandatory rule on the range for semi auto to use casing catcher.
(expense goes on rifle owners - but it is handy for reloaders to collect their casings)

 

[Sideshow]

Can you shoot wearing a wide brim hat? Won’t stop the stuff landing on your gear but should stop it from going down your neck.
Think hitting up management is your best option as already posted.

 

[Nevada Smith]

In no particular order:

1. Pick day(s) and time(s) (taking into account the heat of course) when the likelihood of semi-auto shooters is low(er).
2. As someone already posted: a wide brim hat is a must. (E.g., the kind landscape laborers wear is a good choice.) Wear a long sleeve, collared shirt.
3. Pay for two benches (if permitted)--put your gear on the bench to your left while you're shooting.
4. Given the cost of ammo, I've noticed the semi-auto guys dump a few mags and they're done. So maybe you could sit on the sidelines until they've finished.
5a. If you're injured by flying brass, inform the RSO--he's obligated to complete an incident report. Ask for first aid! Take a photo of the burn, too.
5b. Ask for a copy of the Range's Standard Operating Procedure. You're looking for safety guidelines, incident reporting, etc. and the RSO's obligations for a safe environment. The SOP should have the contact information for the Responsible Person--contact them.
5c. Contact their insurance company and speak to the person who handles the account. Make them aware of the issues.
6. Make one of these and bring it with you; when the guy to your left is shooting a semi-auto, clamp it to his bench top:
Brass Catcher -- it's see-through, so it won't obstruct the RSO's (or anyone else's) view.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

In no particular order:

1. Pick day(s) and time(s) (taking into account the heat of course) when the likelihood of semi-auto shooters is low(er).
2. As someone already posted: a wide brim hat is a must. (E.g., the kind landscape laborers wear is a good choice.) Wear a long sleeve, collared shirt.
3. Pay for two benches (if permitted)--put your gear on the bench to your left while you're shooting.
4. Given the cost of ammo, I've noticed the semi-auto guys dump a few mags and they're done. So maybe you could sit on the sidelines until they've finished.
5a. If you're injured by flying brass, inform the RSO--he's obligated to complete an incident report. Ask for first aid! Take a photo of the burn, too.
5b. Ask for a copy of the Range's Standard Operating Procedure. You're looking for safety guidelines, incident reporting, etc. and the RSO's obligations for a safe environment. The SOP should have the contact information for the Responsible Person--contact them.
5c. Contact their insurance company and speak to the person who handles the account. Make them aware of the issues.
6. Make one of these and bring it with you; when the guy to your left is shooting a semi-auto, clamp it to his bench top:
Brass Catcher -- it's see-through, so it won't obstruct the RSO's (or anyone else's) view.

A few responses:

1. The only real days that there are fewer shooters in general are week days. Since I'm a M-F working guy, that doesn't work. On the weekends it's very busy there and again I'm outnumbered greatly.

3. No can do

4. Again it's so busy this isn't practical.

5a. I did inform a range officer of what happened and showed him the burn, he did no such thing nor suggested anything about an incident report nor did the manager I spoke to this morning. Perhaps I shall follow up.

5c. In my discussion with the manager this morning I asked him about insurance. He confirmed they had it, but he made no offer (nor did RO from Sunday) of any medical assistance. Didn't really need it anyway, but I do believe it should've been offered.

6. That brass catcher is very similar to what they have available at my range. The problem is the range officers do not enforce the use of them. And according the one RO I spoke to, they don't have enough of them even if they did. The manager I spoke basically said they were useless if someone was standing while shooting which prompted the response from me of then make people sit. This is when the manager started invoking that people had rights he couldn't violate.

 

[skydiver386]

Having been an RSO at private shooting ranges for years, I can tell you how I handled things, and still do.

When someone commits a safety violation, I correct them on the spot, in a voice that can be heard over gunfire, even with hearing protection. If someone sweeps me with their muzzle, I sound off and usually wave their gun away with my palm.

If the RSO's at that range will not enforce basic gun safety, I will, and I make no apologies when I do it. I have had discussions with RSO's who told me to mind my own business, to which I replied "Don't make me do your job for you".

As for basic manners, same thing. I will address that person directly, and let them know exactly what the problem is.

I refuse to go to most State owned ranges as I believe they should not be in direct competition with commercial shooting ranges, especially when they use taxpayer money to finance such schemes.

I go to much smaller, much longer distance ranges where the majority are bolt gun shooters, and much more safety conscious.

 

[michael458]

@PHOENIX PHIL

I suppose it would be poor taste, bad manners, to state how much I love shooting in my Air Conditioned indoor 50 yard range? Whew, sure is nice when its 100 degrees outside, to step out back, shoot in 70 degrees, or even cooler if you want............But, I am not saying anything about that, it would just be poor taste........ Of course no one to have to bother with, only invited guests...... and those are very limited....... but not saying....... Shhhhh.....Hmmm...... I think I will head out shortly and partake in some range activities, Rain or shine, hot or cold, does not matter................. LOL Apologies......

 

[uplander01]

It's really annoying, if there are guys shooting Semi Autos I just stand my rifles up in the rack and wait for them to be done and leave. Purposely give myself a lot of time cushion on range days. What pissed me off once worse than getting hit myself was some AR type rifle that threw the brass so far it hit one of my fine wood stocks standing in the rack behind the firing line and left a ding,.....I did pack up that day and left.

 

[Rem280]

So I've been an annual member of a local shooting range for some 20 plus years. When I first started shooting there, I would guess I was in the majority in that most of the shooters were firing bolt action rifles. There were certainly a number of semi-auto pistol and AR style rifles being shot too, but mostly bolt guys.

Well over the years that has changed. And now us bolt guys are far outnumbered by the semi-auto shooters. In and of itself I have no issue with that. However with that increase in semi-autos has come a decrease in etiquette. It seems at this point no one cares about raining brass down on their fellow shooter. The range has screens that can be put up to help catch some of this brass, but it won't get all of it, especially if someone is shooting from a standing position. But it will catch some.

This has become an ever increasing annoyance to me. When developing loads and practicing your trigger pull, it can be a bit challenging as brass comes flying onto your head, rifle arms, legs, etc. Add to that when I'm sitting there at the bench and someone else's brass hits my nice M70 SG stock or the scope, I get a little peeved. I just see it as having no respect for someone else's property.

But the annoyance of it all is something I've just put up with until now. I was at the range yesterday working on a load for my wife's .30-06. I had put this rifle up awhile ago as initial load development had not gone super well. But I had the gunsmith do one of his accuracy packages (bedding / trigger work) and got the rifle back last week.

Not long after I had started shooting the guy beside me on my left went home and a new guy came in with various pistols and two AR rifles. He was in a few shots and of course the brass storm was putting them all over me. And then after one shot, the brass wedged itself between my t-shirt and my neck as I was attempting my next shot. The result was an instantaneous burn that blistered up immediately, roughly 1" long and 1/2" wide. For a moment I was doing a bit of a dance. But I'm a big boy and I'll survive. My wife however wants nothing to do with going back. Furthermore had that hot brass somehow managed to wedge itself between my sunglasses and my eye, it could've been much worse.

I managed to finish my 3 shot group (which was right at 1" group, so there was that). But at that point I was done. I packed up and headed out. As I was outside of the range and away from the range officer "house", one of the range officers was out there. So i decided to speak with him about what happened. He was nice enough and understood my frustration. But all he could do was complain about how management wasn't giving them enough money to buy enough screens, brooms and whatever else. I refrained from replying with, why do you need more screens if no one is using then anyway and you're not making them. All he could suggest was to call the manager tomorrow

So I did that today.....a waste of oxygen and time. Everything I suggested was that won't work, we can't do that, yada yada yada.

So if you've borne with my rant this far, I have a question for you. If you shoot at a range where this problem I've described with flying brass isn't a problem, please explain the range setup. For instance, is there a separate range for autos? Or maybe they require auto shooters to use some sort of screen?

One of my proposed solutions which the manager dismissed was reserving a few benches to the far left for bolt only. "Nah, we can't do that" was the response.

My issue is the giant muzzle brake on a 223/5.56. Ranges by me have netting between the bays. I just bring a gun with a much more annoying brake to run them off.

 

[Hogpatrol]

The management has a responsibility to everyone, shooters and observers, for a safe range, and people not getting injured or burned. Drastic, but threaten to sue the club for your injury and send them a bill for the doctor's visit. Sometimes people need slapped about the face and buttocks before they wake up. From what you've posted, a total shakeup is in order. Then find another range, even if it's further, make a day of it.

 

[B0MBOY]

Of the two ranges I frequent there’s 2 solutions to this problem. One range just has us all spaced out instead of jammed like sardines. The indoor range that doesn’t have that sort of space has a plywood divider between each lane. Keeps the brass for each person in their area.

 

[Flewis]

I feel for you guys. I have my own range in my yard and I’m thankful for that. I may open it to 2 hundred yards as now it’s about 150 but we sight in at 50 yards for DG rifles and 21/2 high at a100 for deer and PG.

 

[cash_tx]

An annoying problem indeed; the worst experience I had was with two guys and an AK pistol. Loud as can be, and terrible safety etiquette.

On the topic of ARs, I recently picked up a Brass Goat brass catcher, and it works very well.

www.brassgoat.com

 

[deewayne2003]

Just one of the reasons I hate public ranges and bought my own land.

Before that I would either start throwing brass back at them and simply ask “why can you do it and I can’t?”

or turn my AK unside down so it would throw hot steel casings at the person being impolite next to me.

 

[PARA45]

When I lived in FL, I used to go to Tamiami Gun Range, which is county own. I'm an AR owner, and I have a brass catcher, and the range has those screens to keep the brass from the neighbors. I'm a considerate and polite shooter. I once had someone who wouldn't use the screen, and the RO wouldn't do anything about it. Luckily no brass down my shirt, but brass was bouncing off my bench. That day I had brought my 7mm STW to work on a load, but since it has an obnoxious muzzle break, and I didn't get the far end bench I decided to leave it in the truck. Since the a$$hole to my left didn't care about me, I decided to take my rifle out, and shoot a couple of rounds. After the first two shots fired, he had to get his earmuffs on, and waited for me to finish my string. The concussion from the muzzle break would knock things off his bench. I gave him the how do you like that look. Luckily, I moved, and stopped going there. Too many inconsiderate a$$holes out there, these new shooters do not have any etiquette or care about their fellow shooters. It's the it's all about me mentality.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I feel your pain. For years I have belonged to a private shooting club which has many ranges that usually offer me a quiet, private time/place to practice or work up loads without too much disturbance. However, it is a 1hr drive away from home. So, many times I chose to shoot at a small public range only 10mi from home. It has only one firing line and only about six benches. Often it is populated with young, un-disciplined men with AR/AK rifles and lots of ammo. They blast away at 25y tgts often struggle to hit anything all while raining hot brass on everyone. I would compensate by coming very early but sometimes it would still be crowded.

One day I was shooting a 50y rimfire postal match from the bench with a beautiful vintage Anschutz model 54 Super Match. This is a 1958 vintage Olympic rifle is equipped with a vintage Unertl 20x tgt scope. It is capable of placing five shots into one hole at 50y. I was attempting to shoot six consecutive five shot groups for the postal match. This takes extreme mental focus. I had completed 4 of the groups so far, when a young nimrod from the city nearby shows up and sets up on the bench to my left with his short bbl AK47 "Pistol" and began flailing away. The muzzle blast on these things sounds more like a 50cal than a medium caliber rifle and that alone was causing me some issues. It literally shook my rifle with each shot. After a few minutes of slow fire, he then decided to do a 30rd mag dump, at my target!!! WTF?? Splashes of mut fly high all around my target stand as I sat stunned.

On top of that really rude lack of etiquette, one of the empty brass hit the walnut stock on my Annie causing a large gouge in the wood. At this point I snapped. I know it is not good to get loud and obnoxious at a gun range full of strangers so, I did stay as cool as I could but did stand up and walk over to his bench and stopped him. Asking why he was shooting my target? He said that he did not know it was mine. I carefully explained that unless he placed it down range, it was not his and was "Off Limits". He said that he did not bring any targets. I offered to give him one if he would move to the bench on my right. Fortunately, his aim was as bad as his manners and while he managed to splash mud all over my target, he failed to put any holes in it, lol. I should have known better than to bring such a nice rifle to that range. Since that time, I only come to that range on weekdays but mostly go to my club if I want privacy. Attached is a pic of the rifle and one of its 50y five shot groups. It takes good ammo and perfect wind conditions to get groups like this and a string of six groups with all holes touching is not unusual but most of the groups would not be quite this good.

 

[poco]

Oh lard you have highlighted my main petpeve with trying to do rifle testing at the range , the Rambo shooters , blasting 30 round magazine off next to my head or splashing brass all over me, the noise is unbearable
first a full 30 rapid fire with a AR then followed by a few clips from a pistol, rinse repeat
my head throbbing I usually just give up on trying to get a decent group
one range has now built rail road tie booths for auto shooting, but those guys don’t like them because they can’t stand up or move around inside, so I have been trying to use the protective stalls now
it’s becoming harder and harder to find a place to go test

 

[BRICKBURN]

@PHOENIX PHIL I jumped in to read the original post out of amusement this morning and started seeing red

Spitting brass onto another human being and or their property. I can't even fathom it.

I am all for behavior modification:

1. Obtain that shooters insurance information and make an injury and property damage claim.
Bloody hell, golfers are held responsible for the projectiles they send off. Be that thrown clubs or errant balls.

2. Obtain Rifle ranges insurance information and make an injury and property damage claim.
Perhaps someone will bring that risk up at a meeting and start to enforce some level of decorum.
(I know, they likely have some blanket its not my fault waiver)

3. The child in me wants you to send the brass back in every passive aggressive manner possible.

4. Structural changes, like reserving the left firing positions for bolts is a great idea. My range has an area that has three positions removed from the rest, technically a shed on the left end. It allows me to hide from the boys shooting their headache machines.

5. It got me wondering about my local range and what they do. Nothing, because a little wiener

or his ilk have banned a clip that could ever possibly cause an issue. I apologize for sidetracking the thread now.


I really hope you get to find a considerate and reasonable solution.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I shoot on blm public property and the ar crowd are simply awful. They will unload an old console tv or washing machine, get twenty yards away from it and unload clip after clip into the old appliance. Then they leave without taking the “target” with them.
There are other similar issues (ricocheting bullets are common) but no respect or etiquette is a huge problem! Sadly no managers or even law enforcement-just deal with it however you can. I try to go when few or no other shooters are there. . .
Good luck with your situation

The same is true at our range here. We have a local sportsman's club, and they do good things, and try to keep the range picked up. But we appear to have an overwhelming number of slob shooters in our community. There has been talk about making it a gated range with cameras that requires a paid membership. I am in favor of it myself.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@PHOENIX PHIL I jumped in to read the original post out of amusement this morning and started seeing red

Spitting brass onto another human being and or their property. I can't even fathom it.

I am all for behavior modification:

1. Obtain that shooters insurance information and make an injury and property damage claim.
Bloody hell, golfers are held responsible for the projectiles they send off. Be that thrown clubs or errant balls.

2. Obtain Rifle ranges insurance information and make an injury and property damage claim.
Perhaps someone will bring that risk up at a meeting and start to enforce some level of decorum.
(I know, they likely have some blanket its not my fault waiver)

3. The child in me wants you to send the brass back in every passive aggressive manner possible.

4. Structural changes, like reserving the left firing positions for bolts is a great idea.

5. It got me wondering about my local range and what they do. Nothing, because a little wiener

View attachment 610988

or his ilk have banned a clip that could ever possibly cause an issue. I apologize for sidetracking the thread now.


I really hope you get to find a considerate and reasonable solution.

I have on occasion taken the brass and flung it back in their direction. Realizing that was a little on the childish I side I only took it so far.

As I was on my laptop late last night, early this morning with a bit of insomnia I looked into another facility. It's called Ben Avery and is more than twice the distance from my usual range. However on the website you could clearly see they had tall screens reaching from the height of the bench to the ceiling of the shooting bay.

The manager I spoke to yesterday morning challenge me to go out there and see for myself it was no better.......challenge is being accepted. I will be emailing him as well as the board of directors my results with pictures as well as inputs I've received in this thread.

I'm really not one to sue and have no intention of doing so. I have a heart for my club and want it to stay in business. When it comes to safety issues it only takes one severe eff-up and the kind inclined to sue to put that existence into jeopardy.