SCI Adopts Policy On Captive Bred Lions

[lcq]

It really sucks hunting has to be this hard.

We’re attacked from all angles by thousands of agendas to end what we love, and we can’t even stand together.

I don’t believe any of us want to see a lion, captive bred or not shot in a “small” (I know, I know how small is too small) enclosure.

I also don’t believe most breeders participate in such practices.

Although sad it happens, what is sadder is the fact we continue to as a community to divide and proclaim “my way” of hunting is morally/ethically better than yours. So we’re going to punish/restrict/end your way of hunting.

It will only get worse.

I believe a very wise man said If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately. The cowardly panty waists at SCI deserve to lose membership. That will smarten them up

 

[Red Leg]

Proper correction. There's nothing phony about the hypocrisy.

I will respect that opinions are like belly buttons and there will be differences. However if you're of the opinion that this was a good move, I do hope you'll not support the hypocrisy of singling out only the CBL hunting operators. And will support also having all forms of animals/birds bred for the bullet as it were to be also banned from DSC/SCI.

I believe a very wise man said If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately. The cowardly panty waists at SCI deserve to lose membership. That will smarten them up

Part of the problem for those who support this practice, is someone like me. I am a life member of both DSC and SCI - I strongly support both organizations' position with regard to this practice - and I am very confident there are quite a few of us with a similar view. Rather than bowing to outside pressure, I am certain the respective positions reflect the views of most of the membership. I truly, really, absolutely believe that hunting captive bred lions undermines the important conservation argument we are trying to make every single day to preserve our hunting heritage. By supporting this practice, I would be equating it to a whitetail hunt on my ranch here in Texas. That is nonsensical, and I am absolutely convinced trying to equate it to generally accepted fair chase hunting is hugely detrimental to our efforts to make the case of hunter as conservationist. Everything involving an animal, a human, and a gun is not the same thing. And I am one of those who is proud that both of my hunting communities (DSC and SCI) have reached this conclusion as well.

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Red Leg I know I disagree with you on this but I appreciate your reasonable approach and articulate response. Not to start a seven page conversation but it will always come down to one person's definition of fair chase and his own ethics.

It would be interesting if they gave members a vote. But they are elected officials and we will go with that.

 

[brandondd24]

I received this email today also, I can’t say one way or the other the best way to think about this. I’m torn between both views. But I do believe we need to stand together as hunters. My 2cents

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg I know I disagree with you on this but I appreciate your reasonable approach and articulate response. Not to start a seven page conversation but it will always come down to one person's definition of fair chase and his own ethics.

It would be interesting if they gave members a vote. But they are elected officials and we will go with that.

And I have profound respect for you and your opinion as well. One of the special things about our forum.

 

[TXhunter65]

Part of the problem for those who support this practice, is someone like me. I am a life member of both DSC and SCI - I strongly support both organizations' position with regard to this practice - and I am very confident there are quite a few of us with a similar view. Rather than bowing to outside pressure, I am certain the respective positions reflect the views of most of the membership. I truly, really, absolutely believe that hunting captive bred lions undermines the important conservation argument we are trying to make every single day to preserve our hunting heritage. By supporting this practice, I would be equating it to a whitetail hunt on my ranch here in Texas. That is nonsensical, and I am absolutely convinced trying to equate it to generally accepted fair chase hunting is hugely detrimental to our efforts to make the case of hunter as conservationist. Everything involving an animal, a human, and a gun is not the same thing. And I am one of those who is proud that both of my hunting communities (DSC and SCI) have reached this conclusion as well.

I appreciate your view and reason and ask this question out of respect and interest in your opinion and not out of sarcasm:
What do you feel the difference is in breeding lions or whitetails and releasing them into a 10,000 acre high fence for the purpose of hunting and what makes one ethical and one unethical?

 

[Red Leg]

I don't. I am not comfortable with "put and take" shooting of big game. I find it difficult to defend with our critics. But please understand, I fully support high fence operations where self-sustaining herds are managed in an environment where the game animal's natural range is not meaningfully constrained. Many game ranches both here and in Africa do that very well. I would note, over much of its range, 10k acres is sufficient to have a fairly robust self-sustaining herd of whitetail. The more typical "put and take" whitetail operation releases 50-100 genetically engineered bucks into 500 - 1000 acre pastures. That is a great way to "buy" a big rack for the wall, but to me at least, it isn't really hunting.

And yes, I fully admit that I am, I suppose, hypocritical w/r to birds. I "shoot" tower released pheasants, box birds, and plantation quail - but no one I know confuses that with hunting.

 

[wesheltonj]

While I understand that "canned" lion hunting gives everyone a bad name, I think this went a little too far. Again I have zero interest in hunting lion, any lion. According this this, Ranch managed lion are now a canned hunt, any lion behind a fence. I would have much preferred that ranch managed lions that are in an enclosure in excess of their natural range of 64k acres for more then X period of time be an acceptable fair chase hunt.

 

[Royal27]

While I understand that "canned" lion hunting gives everyone a bad name, I think this went a little too far. Again I have zero interest in hunting lion, any lion. According this this, Ranch managed lion are now a canned hunt, any lion behind a fence. I would have much preferred that ranch managed lions that are in an enclosure in excess of their natural range of 64k acres for more then X period of time be an acceptable fair chase hunt.

I don't know that this is true, or not.

I don't believe that ranch managed was addressed at all? SCI talked specifically about CBL not meeting their estate hunting standards, which after reading those standards I agree, CBL doesn't meet them.

But, if a particular animal DID meet the standards I have no reason as of yet to believe SCI would condemn that hunt.

It will likely take quite a while to see as there are very few, if any, truly ranch managed lions available for hunting, at least that I'm aware of.

Does anyone know of any available?

 

[wesheltonj]

I don't know that this is true, or not.

I don't believe that ranch managed was addressed at all? SCI talked specifically about CBL not meeting their estate hunting standards, which after reading those standards I agree, CBL doesn't meet them.

But, if a particular animal DID meet the standards I have no reason as of yet to believe SCI would condemn that hunt.

It will likely take quite a while to see as there are very few, if any, truly ranch managed lions available for hunting, at least that I'm aware of.

Does anyone know of any available?

I hope you are correct and I am wrong.

 

[Royal27]

I hope you are correct and I am wrong.

The question certainly hasn't been clearly answered....

It's hypothetical though, unless someone starts offering ranch managed lions that meet the SCI estate standards.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I don't. I am not comfortable with "put and take" shooting of big game. I find it difficult to defend with our critics. But please understand, I fully support high fence operations where self-sustaining herds are managed in an environment where the game animal's natural range is not meaningfully constrained. Many game ranches both here and in Africa do that very well. I would note, over much of its range, 10k acres is sufficient to have a fairly robust self-sustaining herd of whitetail. The more typical "put and take" whitetail operation releases 50-100 genetically engineered bucks into 500 - 1000 acre pastures. That is a great way to "buy" a big rack for the wall, but to me at least, it isn't really hunting.

And yes, I fully admit that I am, I suppose, hypocritical w/r to birds. I "shoot" tower released pheasants, box birds, and plantation quail - but no one I know confuses that with hunting.

You always communicate your points very well and I respect your point of view. However I do not see any difference between shooting this bred to be a freak whitetail non-typical buck that most will never see in the wild much less have their choice of and a lion. I've heard one guy tell me straight to my face one year in Dallas that that was exactly what he was going to do the day after the show was over. And in a small fenced area, like on the order of a few acres.

The elk hunts I see for guaranteed size take place also on fairly small properties in low lying areas. So the hunter does not need to even hardly climb a hill for his guaranteed minimum size trophy.

The lioness I took at Serapa had been set loose before I showed up and with no intention of hunting her. That decision was made mid trip. And she was set loose on 45,000 acres. And our first encounter with her was when she busted up the Eland hunt for my wife when she decided to hunt the same herd we had made a stalk on.

How can my lioness hunt be deemed unacceptable while accepting the deer and elk hunts I've described? How can my lioness hunt even be compared to these deer/elk hunts?

 

[CAustin]

Also of interest that they announced this decision during the current 2018 show while some of these outfitters are exhibiting at said show!!

Now that was wrong!

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

Just so you guys know - there is at least one member here who believes this was a win for concept of ethical hunting. And I am a life member.

Thinking of giving up my SCI membership based on this
I don’t think these organizations have a right to say this unless it’s approved by a majority of members. Isn’t this the point of a member based organization
Our fees fund them and then they make statements that are not that of the majority of the member base

Hhmmmmmm

Regards

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

Maybe this is wrong but my personal opinion is if we are so weird about what these organizations think or say about certain hunts determines if we do or don’t hunt the species and may not get them registered if we do hunt them.
Aren’t we losing the real reason WHY we all hunt???
Do we hunt o get a trophy noticed or registered or NOT hunt because and organization said it’s wrong???
Hunt what you want to hunt, how you want to hunt it, and when you want to hunt it!!!

Don’t we hunt for the experience????

Kind regards

 

[Hogpatrol]

Under no circumstances do I believe the fair chase /ethical/moral hunting argument holds up with the anti-s. To them hunting is UNETHICAL and IMMORAL, and needs to be banned in its totality. I respect other's opinions but this whole controversy about captive bred lions is just another wedge being used by the anti-s to divide and conquer. I'm sure they're sipping champagne in groups like PETA and HSUS on this "ruling". From this chair, SCI is chasing their tails on this front and should realize sometimes its better to just keep your fkn mouth shut. I don't think the self righteous purists are helping anything either.

 

[billc]

One thing that burns me up is when some decide to use the term the anti's made up. They feel they need to use canned and buy right in to the use of it because well they don't like it.

I don't care how well you can write or how nice you pretend to be. You have the right to not do a hunt if you don't want to. The place I start having a problem is when you tell others , they are not a hunter because they hunt a way or any animal you don't agree with.

The bad part is most of the guys who say they think it hurts us overall just don't get it. Certain animals will never make the regular every day person like hunting. Anti's want it all stopped but don't kind yourself thinking most of the general public will be ok with the killing of any ele, lion or other cute animal if asked. So by the logic some use I should just want lion and ele stopped because I think it would make saving hunting easier. I will never do that kind of hunt so why should I stick up for saving that hunting if it will save my elk or deer hunting.

Instead I back all hunting because that is what is right if your for hunting rights. We just keep giving in as they keep winning and coming for more hunting to stop.

I am so sick of guy telling me what hunting is anymore. But I guess since all the fighting between ourselves has worked so well we should keep doing it so some can make themselves feel good.

 

[johnnyblues]

You can only 'estate' hunt animals which the public doesn't care about. So the policy must effectively be based on polling results, or something similar.

I think they'd put much of Texas hunting out of business if they were serious about this policy.

You hit the nail right on the head Hank.

 

[IvW]

I don't know that this is true, or not.

I don't believe that ranch managed was addressed at all? SCI talked specifically about CBL not meeting their estate hunting standards, which after reading those standards I agree, CBL doesn't meet them.

But, if a particular animal DID meet the standards I have no reason as of yet to believe SCI would condemn that hunt.

It will likely take quite a while to see as there are very few, if any, truly ranch managed lions available for hunting, at least that I'm aware of.

Does anyone know of any available?

Yip there are. I hunt an area that is about 50 000 acres that has a healthy population of released lions that have been roaming there for many years. Population is of such a nature that lion hunting is permitted. They breed, are self sustaining and are hunted. Periodically new blood is introduced. All the big six are available on this property.

No put and take hunting here, no minimum release period as it is not applicable here.

The ranch is not a member of SAPA.

 

[Mike70560]

This is SCI’s definition of estate hunting:

The Record Book Committee of Safari Club International defines an “Estate” category in the Record Book of Big Game Animals as follows:An “Estate” will be any property or area that uses an artificial or unnatural restrictive barrier, in most cases a fence, which restricts or confines the movement of game animals.The restrictive barrier may consist of multiple sides, or only one side.If the artificial barrier is used in conjunction with a natural barrier such as a bluff, canyon, river, lake or other natural barriers, then the enclosed area is also considered an “Estate”. Any game animal taken within the confines of such an “Estate” will be considered for the “Estate Taken” category of that species. Any game animal taken that was raised, or kept for a long period of time, within the confines of an “Estate” and then intentionally or unintentionally releasedoutside of the “Estate” will only be considered for the “Estate Taken” category of that species. If an animal does not fall into this category it will be considered free range. SCI Fair Chase Requirements for Record Book Entries of Estate Animals are as follows. An Estate animal must meet the following criteria in order to be qualified for entry into the Record Book. The animal must have freely resided on the hunted property and the area to be hunted for six months, or longer. The animal must be part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property.The operators of the hunted property must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times. The hunted property must provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the hunted property. The animal must exhibit its natural flight/ survival instincts. No zoo animal, exhibited animal or tame animal may be considered for entry into the Record Book. Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing the animal to the hunter. SCI supports prevention, management, and research of all wildlife diseases as it pertains to high fenced and non-high fenced hunting areas.

I am glad to see SCI and DSC take a stand on these issues. Surprisingly it is SCI that went a step further than DSC and could possibly take a hit in their pocket book. Now SCI should adopt the criteria for a shootable male lion similar to DSC. Paul Babaz are you listening???

I feel it is ridiculous to compare hunting behind a high fence for any game to shooting a pen raised animal that was released just a day or two prior to being shot. Very few outfitters will allow lions to roam their property for six months eating their prize plainsgame and buffalo. And I agree it should apply to more than lion but at at least it is a step in the right direction.

For me none of this has anything to do with appeasing anti-hunters. It is about organizations setting standards. If you don’t like it, don’t join or work to change it. Personally I applaud the decision.