Sabatti doubles worked by Ken Owen

[Doubleriflejack]

"bullets are easy enough to find though, since both Woodleigh and Swift make them. I bought 3 boxes of bullets, one box 400gr Woodleigh SP, one box of 400gr Swift SP, and one box of Swift 350gr SP. the gun is regulated for Hornady factory ammo but I would have to be 100% positive absolutely nothing else will work before I use a Hornady DGX bullet for dangerous game."
______________________________
A rifle regulated with Hornady bullets will usually need Hornady bullets, OR BULLETS WITH SAME OVERALL CONTOUR AS HORNADY BULLETS, to shoot same as was done during final regulation. Using bullets with different contour, will usually not shoot as well as ones originally regulated with.

Matt--"if I can get the swift 350gr bullet pushed to a slightly faster speed and get close to the POA with the sight in either barrel then I may take the rifle deer hunting with me this year."
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Some rifles may shoot well with slightly lighter or heavier bullets than originally regulated with (for example, the .375 flanged will often shoot well with either the 270 grain or the 300 grain bullets), but usually they will not, so it is best to shoot the 400 grain bullets in this .400 Jeffery.

Matt " I wont need the bullet to regulate in both barrels, just be close in one barrel." Ok, but that is not using rifle the way it was intended, as made.

I figure it would get me used to carrying the gun around and the ranges I hunt at are inside 100yrds so the irons will work fine. plus it will make for interesting conversation around the camp fire. "

 

[matt85]

another update:

ive had a bit of luck since the last time i posted. i found 75gr of W760 seems to yield promising results with both Swift and Woodleigh 400gr bullets. the woodleigh's are landing about 5-6 inches apart but at least are not crossing. the swift's are landing 1.5-2 inches apart and do not cross but the elevation and point of impact is a bit strange. i also had a bit of luck with 65gr of H4895 and 400gr woodleigh's. all of these loads will be subject to further testing until i can find a suitable load. its been raining every day ive been to the range so i havent had a chance to chronograph anything.

a major problem im running into is my lack of skill shooting from a tripod. i will start putting some serious time shooting off my tripod with my other rifles so i can learn to keep things steady. i will practice with my 375 H&H and my 22LR to cut down on cost. (the 375 H&H is 1/4 the cost of shooting the 450/400)

-matt

 

[Doubleriflejack]

another update:

ive had a bit of luck since the last time i posted. i found 75gr of W760 seems to yield promising results with both Swift and Woodleigh 400gr bullets. the woodleigh's are landing about 5-6 inches apart but at least are not crossing. the swift's are landing 1.5-2 inches apart and do not cross but the elevation and point of impact is a bit strange. i also had a bit of luck with 65gr of H4895 and 400gr woodleigh's. all of these loads will be subject to further testing until i can find a suitable load. its been raining every day ive been to the range so i havent had a chance to chronograph anything.

a major problem im running into is my lack of skill shooting from a tripod. i will start putting some serious time shooting off my tripod with my other rifles so i can learn to keep things steady. i will practice with my 375 H&H and my 22LR to cut down on cost. (the 375 H&H is 1/4 the cost of shooting the 450/400)

-matt

Thanks, Matt for the update. Let us know again, after you get chance to sort out all the issues, when it isn't raining!

 

[matt85]

on a funny note, 75gr of W760 is also the load i use for my 375 H&H with hornady 300gr BTSP. who would have thought that the same load that works great in my 375 H&H would work well in a 400 jeffery.

i also recently had a chance to try some Hornady factory DGS cartridges, they didnt regulate at all. i will need to come up with a different load for solids but i suppose i need to deside on what solids i want to use. woodleigh solids are seriously expensive but i suppose i could try Hornady's DGS in handloads and maybe even try CEB's brass solids. CEB makes a 0.409" 400gr solid for a very reasonable price.

-matt

 

[Doubleriflejack]

on a funny note, 75gr of W760 is also the load i use for my 375 H&H with hornady 300gr BTSP. who would have thought that the same load that works great in my 375 H&H would work well in a 400 jeffery.

i also recently had a chance to try some Hornady factory DGS cartridges, they didnt regulate at all. i will need to come up with a different load for solids but i suppose i need to deside on what solids i want to use. woodleigh solids are seriously expensive but i suppose i could try Hornady's DGS in handloads and maybe even try CEB's brass solids. CEB makes a 0.409" 400gr solid for a very reasonable price.

-matt

Matt, Earlier, you said that Ken Owen was sending you some of the cartridges loaded with R15 that he re-regulated the rifle with, and also some loaded with 3031 too, so I am anxious to know how those shot in your rifle. Also, you didn't mention what kind of bullet impact, spread, you were getting with the 4895, so, please, let us know that too.

 

[matt85]

unfortunately there was some kind of issue with the delivery service and Mr. Owens hand loads never made it to me. according to the tracking number they are on the way back to him. who knows when they will get back to him or when they will finally make it to me.

the 4895 did about the same as W760 with woodleighs which means about 5" +/- an inch apart. I did try the 4895 load with swift bullets last time so im gonna give the same load a go with A-frames this weekend.

something to be noted: while Woodleigh bullets appear very similar to DGX/DGS bullets they actually have very different bearing surfaces. on the other hand, the Swift A-frame which looks completely different has almost the same bearing surface as the DGX. the woodleighs bearing surface is much shorter due to a wider nose.

-matt

 

[Earth and Ocean Safaris]

Hello Matt, I have followed your thread on your Sabatti double, very interesting, a friend an I both have Sabatti doubles in 500 NE, and getting them to regulate with hand loads was a challenge! So starting off was a bit of a pain, literally!!! Cause to bench a .500NE for load development is not for the faint of heart! You mentioned that you are having problems shooting off your tri-pod, well so did we. Every slight bit of movement, or flinch impacted negatively and made us believe that our loads were wrong, very frustrating. A cardinal factor in deciding on loads is to know exactly where you've placed the previous shot and for that you have to be absolutely dead steady, I am stating the obvious, but in reality its a different game, as flinching becomes a reality when doing load development especially on large caliber doubles, so we took a 20 liter bucket, filled it with sand, closed the lid and placed it on top of the bench, next we strapped a block of high density foam tightly to it, about 10 inches high, 10 inches long and cut a 2-inch slot along the top, where the gun could fit in nice and tight, now we could comfortably stand behind our rifles, which reduced recoil tremendously as well as be steady enough to aim properly. Dressed in a nice thick jacket with additional padding we could now concentrate on where the gun placed the shot, and adjust loads acordingly. Get a buddy to assist you as this helps alot, he can spot and see whether you are flinching or pulling a shot, even help you to keep your rifle steady, get your chrony fired up, without it you are flying blind. Be very diligent in recording your finds after every single shot, one forgets quickly. Woodleigh's did not do well in our rifles, where the Hornady's DGX faired much better, Then best results we got was with Peregrine bullets, the VRG 3 Bushmaster was designed especially for doubles. Check them out on www.peregrinebullets.com, I dont know if they ship overseas, but its worth a try. We have taken many buffalo with them as well as our clients, and they work well. Our rifles now regulate 2 inches @ 50 meters, Good luck, Xagene Lotz

 

[drew416]

Thanks for sharing the info about Peregrine bullets. I am trying to get a pack shipped to Australia to try out.

 

[Earth and Ocean Safaris]

You are welcome Drew416, you wont be sorry, they perform extremely well, you will notice the VRG 3 have a plunger in the nose, wich on impact makes it mushroom fantastic, the bullet canalures or driving bands are designed in such way that you get more speed with less powder charge, also reducing recoil, on all our recovered bullets, we had a minium 90 percent weight retention,
enjoy!

 

[AkMike]

You shouldn't have any rifle contact with the rests. Have your hand on the front rest, between it and the rifle. The rear should be on your shoulder with the back pretty straight.

 

[matt85]

Hello Matt, I have followed your thread on your Sabatti double, very interesting, a friend an I both have Sabatti doubles in 500 NE, and getting them to regulate with hand loads was a challenge! So starting off was a bit of a pain, literally!!! Cause to bench a .500NE for load development is not for the faint of heart! You mentioned that you are having problems shooting off your tri-pod, well so did we. Every slight bit of movement, or flinch impacted negatively and made us believe that our loads were wrong, very frustrating. A cardinal factor in deciding on loads is to know exactly where you've placed the previous shot and for that you have to be absolutely dead steady, I am stating the obvious, but in reality its a different game, as flinching becomes a reality when doing load development especially on large caliber doubles, so we took a 20 liter bucket, filled it with sand, closed the lid and placed it on top of the bench, next we strapped a block of high density foam tightly to it, about 10 inches high, 10 inches long and cut a 2-inch slot along the top, where the gun could fit in nice and tight, now we could comfortably stand behind our rifles, which reduced recoil tremendously as well as be steady enough to aim properly. Dressed in a nice thick jacket with additional padding we could now concentrate on where the gun placed the shot, and adjust loads acordingly. Get a buddy to assist you as this helps alot, he can spot and see whether you are flinching or pulling a shot, even help you to keep your rifle steady, get your chrony fired up, without it you are flying blind. Be very diligent in recording your finds after every single shot, one forgets quickly. Woodleigh's did not do well in our rifles, where the Hornady's DGX faired much better, Then best results we got was with Peregrine bullets, the VRG 3 Bushmaster was designed especially for doubles. Check them out on www.peregrinebullets.com, I dont know if they ship overseas, but its worth a try. We have taken many buffalo with them as well as our clients, and they work well. Our rifles now regulate 2 inches @ 50 meters, Good luck, Xagene Lotz

thanks for the info! I will check out the peregrine bullets when I get a chance. as for the chronograph, I would love to use it but it rains about 150 days out of the year here and every time I get a day off its been raining. with true irony its been sunny for most of the days ive been at work.

thanks
-matt

 

[sestoppelman]

Someone quote for me, from the "Bible" written by whoever it was that wrote the double rifle book (WILSON?). Quote the relevant passage where it says a well regulated double will shoot parallel forever. Not saying its not possible. I just want to see it in print from the DR guru.

 

[matt85]

you could ask Mr. Owen... he will tell you the shots should not cross. if they cross then you have one of two problems, either your ammo is incorrect for your gun or your gun is not properly regulated.

how do you expect to make long range shots if your shots cross? before you laugh, plenty of people in europe use small caliber double rifles for shots between 10-200+ yards which wouldnt be possible if the shots crossed at a set distance.

having said that, shots can and will overlap. if your gun shoots two 1 inch groups 2 inches apart at 100 yards then it will shoot two 2 inch groups that touch each other at 200 yards. the shots are not crossing, the group size has simply expanded to the point where they touch each other. if brought out to 300 yards it will appear as though your shots are crossing but its still simply the group size increasing to merge into one another.

-matt

 

[PaulT]

Someone quote for me, from the "Bible" written by whoever it was that wrote the double rifle book (WILSON?). Quote the relevant passage where it says a well regulated double will shoot parallel forever. Not saying its not possible. I just want to see it in print from the DR guru.

Ses, don't have a copy of the Bible, but I do have Graeme Wright's; "Shooting the British Double Rifle".

Within this book is perhaps the very best description/explanation of regulation of a double rifle that I have so far read. It does go on for quite a bit more than what I just include here, but the following may help with your grasp of the concept. Like you, when I first ventured into the world of doubles, I too had problems getting my head around it but Graeme's book helps with that.

" For all practical purposes, in a correctly regulated rifle , you can imagine the bullet paths from the individual barrels as two straight lines starting at the muzzles and converging at some distant point. In reality, the bullet paths are quite complicated, but this does not concern us as practical shooters. What does not happen, or at least should not happen, is that the bullet paths cross at some close range and then continue to get further apart."

Hope that helps.

Paul.

 

[sestoppelman]

Gee, that kind of sounds like what I have been saying all along LOL! Wright says " for practical purposes". What that would mean I suppose is within 500 yds or less. OK. He also says the bullets will converge (cross paths!) at some" distant point". Now when he says the bullets paths should not or will not cross at "some close range", well of course. What is close range? I would think within 100 yds or so, so yes of course we don't want that to happen. So I feel somewhat vindicated here in this discussion, though this has been an eye opener for me, as I never figured a double to be capable much beyond its regulated distance, not fully understanding what that meant. However according to Wright, the bullets can and or will cross at "some distant point" and not go parallel forever, probably in most cases.
Paul, that is the Bible I was talking about, just couldn't remember his name. Thanks guys!

 

[PaulT]

Ses, you really need to get the book and read it all.

Sorry, but space limits here and I believe copyright may also, I don't know,
and do not want to infringe upon anyone.
I only just posted the above to try help with the concept, but the explanation is not complete.

Reference to "where the bullets will converge" refers to a point where the accuracy group of one barrel begins to overlap the opposing barrel.
That is not crossing per se, as the groups of either barrel converging and then overlapping.

You need to get the book Ses, he can explain it a lot better than I can without printing the entire book here.

 

[Earth and Ocean Safaris]

You shouldn't have any rifle contact with the rests. Have your hand on the front rest, between it and the rifle. The rear should be on your shoulder with the back pretty straight.

Hi Mike, there should be no rifle contact with the rest in case its a hard material, like wood. For instance if you hunt and take dead rest over a tree or rock, your hand should be between it and the rifle, if your rifle rests directly on a hard, non-giving surface, point of impact will be effected. In our case we rested our rifle's fore-end (not the barrels) in the the high density foam, wich is still soft enough to give. Like most bench rest shooters use sand bags, front and rear of the rifle, although pretty solid, it still have enough give to allow for an accurate shot,

 

[sestoppelman]

Paul, thanks for that! I have no desire to spend the money on the book, that's why I asked for a relevant quote from it. I thought it was fairly clear that at some distant point the bullets will converge, which does in and of itself not necessarily mean cross paths, however when two objects start off from two different points and converge later, I think its pretty clear he means cross. Granted it will happen at some point beyond where anyone will care. That was his point about practical ranges, so whether it happens at 500 yds or a mile away, its too far to care about but it can/will still happen. And as he states it is not good if this happens at short range, and the bullets continue to get farther apart. Everything he says in that quote is pointed towards the practicalities and possibilities, not absolutes and infinities.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

The fact Ses, is that the perfectly regulated and infinity parallel shooting doubles mainly exists in the dream world and not in the real world
Theory and reality are usually two different worlds
Most doubles will either have barrels crossing or going apart at longer distances.

The fact is that most doubles if not all, are very far from being sniping guns.
And that is totally fine as that is not why they are made.
They are made for short range(sub 150 meters) shooting, and there is not a gun maker or regulator that would spend the time needed to make and regulate a very accurate double for long distance shots.
That would cost more than 99.99% of all double rifle owners would be willing to pay.

Most doubles are regulated for 70-80 meters for a reason.
People usually don't use them much past 100 meters, and as said before, to regulate for 200 meters would be way to time consuming and expensive even if 2 extremely accurate barrels were used.

 

[sestoppelman]

N,woods, that would be pretty much my opinion for whatever its worth. Echoes my sentiments.