Sabatti doubles worked by Ken Owen

[sestoppelman]

Not quite right Sestoppelman.
The barrels should be set to shoot parallel at any distance. If they cross at 50 or 100 they aren't set right or you need to speed up the load until they don't cross. But if they shoot wide they need to be slowed down some.

Many get the terms regulated at and regulated for mixed up. The 'regulated for' is simply the load used. 'Regulated at' is the distance that they were shot at during the regulation. There are videos at youtube that show this being done with Sabatti's so take a look and "guesstimate" the distance.

Greame Wright has covered this in his books quite well.

Matt85,
Did you use any filler in the 4350 loads? I'm not at home now and exactly half a world away (Ukraine) from my loading bench so I can't see how much airspace would be in the cartridges with 4350. Consider 1/2" backer rod or Dacron to fill it up to the base of the seated bullet with just a bit of compression when it full. I use a pencil to pack the Dacron into the cases. Backer rod is easier to use. Just cut to length and insert.

Mike, I know you have forgotten more about doubles than I will ever know, but I have read from many sources over the many years I have been shooting, that a doubles bullets will converge at some distance, otherwise how do they get there in the first place? It stands to reason that they will have to go in opposite directions before and after the convergence. Again, this may be ignorance on my part and others, but that has always been my understanding. Not saying you are wrong, just explaining where I come from.

 

[spike.t]

ses my 9.3 double puts the bullets at 100 yds exactly the width apart they come out of the barrels which is perfect. some doubles do cross after a certain distance which can be not far , but i wouldnt consider that correct.

 

[sestoppelman]

ses my 9.3 double puts the bullets at 100 yds exactly the width apart they come out of the barrels which is perfect. some doubles do cross after a certain distance which can be not far , but i wouldnt consider that correct.

Hi spike. I get that. My question for you or AKmike is this. Will not the bullets cross paths at some point either before or after the "regulated" point? Or will they, as some have said, continue to be parallel and maintain POI at all ranges regardless the regulation point? I don't see how that's possible.

 

[spike.t]

ses i am not 100 pcnt on that, but come tues i will phone someone who knows more about doubles than even the best on here and ask him, as if mine is doing that at a 100 i dont see why they would ever cross as its the same at 50yds also. they wouldnt cross before the distance the rifle would be regulated at as they couldnt then head back together. i have been there and shot a double for the bloke who was doing the witchcraft for adjusting the barrels, and he was happy when they were shooting slightly apart at 50 or 60 yds , cant remember the exact distance.

 

[Doubleriflejack]

Let me respond by commenting within your writing:

time for an update:
I picked the Sabatti rifle up today from my FFL and drove strait to the range. after going over the rifle a little and giving the bores an initial clean I put some rounds down range with mixed results.

first, I will discuss the guns general looks and basic function. as far as appearance goes the rifle is outstanding! the wood, while not premium grade is still pleasing to the eye. the receiver is covered in very detailed engraving"
This engraving was done by a CNC guided cutter, machine made; not made by hand, but it is the best quality of any and all machine engraving I have ever seen myself. The basic pattern and layout WAS designed by a skilled Italian engraver, and, to my eye, is pleasing, though some don't like it.

and is nickel plated. on a funny note, when I told the lady at my FFL that I was going to shoot the gun she looked shocked saying "that rifle belongs on display, not at the range". if you buy one of these you will not be disappointed in the appearance."
The first one I got, was shipped to me via gun dealer in Montana, where I was living at the time. When I went to pick it up, and told the counter clerk why I was there, he said "Oh, you bought that, some sort of buffalo rifle, right?" People just don't understand!

"as far as general function, the rifle is a little stiff to open and the trigger pull is a bit heavy for my liking (around 5 pounds)."
Rifle was stiff, but did you put a thin coat of quality synthetic grease on hook that goes over the hinge pin, and also do same on the Purdey underbolt bite in lump? As you use rifle, it will loosen up a bit---it is new, now, so you have to expect some stiffness. Trigger pull is right on; if it could have safely been lightened up more, Ken Owen would have done it. Guys who lighten up trigger pulls, have to be concerned about liability issues too. 5 pounds, for one of pulls is about right.
the ejectors on the rifle seem to be reliable but I haven't put many rounds threw it. the front sight does leave something to be desired but I suppose I could have that replaced with a fiber optic sight.

"performance: I didn't do enough shooting to get a feel for the accuracy of the gun. todays, shooting was mainly to test regulation and get my self used to the triggers and recoil. the ammo I brought along is as follows.

12 rounds Hornady DGX factory loads
4 rounds Swift A-frame hand loads over 77.5gr of IMR 4350 (modified load from "Shooting the British double rifle")
4 rounds Woodleigh RNSP hand loads over 77.5gr of IMR 4350 (load taken strait from "Shooting the British double rifle")
the two hand loads did not even come close to regulating in the rifle which was a real bummer. I will have to play with them some more and see if I can get them to perform. I really wish I had some 4831 powder to work with but I cant find any.

I know that you wanted to see results from loads suggested in Grame Wrights book, and you did, but rifle wasn't regulated with those loads, it was regulated as it says on the factory target, and that is exactly the load and bullet combination that Ken Owen used when he re-regulated rifle, so that is more than likely the only one it will properly regulate with. Ken Own doesn't load with IMR 4350 or 4831. I have seen where he has been using R15 and IMR 3031 recently for double rifle loads--maybe he uses other powders too, but he wrote a one page article in Double Gun Journal recommending double rifle shooters to not use these slow burning powders, because in the past, some double rifles have been blown apart with their use. He, Ross Seyfried, and Champlin's arms have all written about and recommended against using 4350 and 4831, though Wright suggests no problem at all in their use. On this issue, I am with Ken Owen, Seyfried, and Champlin's, so I continue avoiding use of this powder. If you prefer to use it, go right ahead, but don't send me hate mail saying I am wrong--if I am wrong, I am in good company. I have been shooting double rifles since the 1960s, and have yet to damage or blow up a double rifle. As Seyfried suggests, for all doubles of .400 Nitro caliber on up, I use only one powder, R15.

"the factory loads were close which was a problem, the gun is supposed to be regulated to the factory ammo by Ken Owen. however, they shot about 1 inch too high and 4 inches apart. being an inch high isn't really an issue but 4 inches apart is too much."

Look, the standard for big bore double riffles of ALL makes, is a spread of 3 inches. A skilled regulator can often get this down to 2 inches or less, but it takes patience and a lot of time. If you shot only two rounds, one from each barrel, that is not enough for a firm judgement call. You need to shoot a minimum of at least four, 2 from each barrel, and more would be even better, and use the center of the right group, and center of the left group, to see spread. At 50 yards, Four inches isn't terribly bad with a double rifle, for you are talking about a big bore double rifle; not a precision shooting instrument. again, 3 inches is the standard.

I will try some more hand loads tomorrow using the factory velocity and see if I cant make something work. if im unable to get that 4 inches closed up to about 1-2 inches then I will have to return the rifle."

You really don't understand double rifles, if you expect to get a one inch group; 2 inches would be fantastic, calling for a celebration party. Four inches is quite acceptable, even for a Holland and Holland.


-matt

 

[Doubleriflejack]

matt85,
Here is what I suggest you do, to see if you can get your Sabatti to shoot better groups: Use only one bullet type, with profile same as originally used to regulate rifle, and later used to re-regulate it by Ken Own. Use only one powder type, R15, unless Ken Owen used a different powder for his regulation load with that given rifle. Don't use 4350 or 4831 no matter where you learned to use them. Don't increase the velocity you shot the 4 inch spread loads with--to increase velocity, all other factors being same, will only increase the spread. Actually, decrease that velocity slightly, hoping for less than 4 inch grouping with left/right barrels. Generally, try to duplicate loads Ken Own used to regulate with, to get same or close to same results as he did.

 

[Doubleriflejack]

sestoppelman: "Will not the bullets cross paths at some point either before or after the "regulated" point? Or will they, as some have said, continue to be parallel and maintain POI at all ranges regardless the regulation point? I don't see how that's possible."

"but I have read from many sources over the many years I have been shooting, that a doubles bullets will converge at some distance, otherwise how do they get there in the first place? It stands to reason that they will have to go in opposite directions before and after the convergence. Again, this may be ignorance on my part and others, but that has always been my understanding. Not saying you are wrong, just explaining where I come from."
_______________________________
A lot of guys, gunwriters included, get it in their mind that when a double rifle is regulated at 50 yards, that the left/right bullets cross at that distance, which is false. When a double is regulated at 50 yards, or 75 yards, or 100 yards, it simply means that at that range is where the regulation checking was done. A PROPERLY REGULATED DOUBLE RIFLE WILL NEVER CROSS FIRE AT ANY RANGE, BUT WILL SHOOT LEFT/RIGHT PARALLEL TO INFINITY, WITHIN REASON. If a double rifle does cross, it was either never regulated properly, well, and/or it has lost its regulation for some reason. Hell, if a double rifle cross fired at 50 yards, can you imagine how far apart the bullets would be at 100 yards?

spike tL "ses my 9.3 double puts the bullets at 100 yds exactly the width apart they come out of the barrels which is perfect. some doubles do cross after a certain distance which can be not far , but i wouldnt consider that correct."

Yes, spike t, you are correct; your 9.3 is shooting as it should, regulated well.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

At a certain distance, the bullets can cross paths. Not because of the regulation, but because of the natural spread of each barrel that will make it possible for a bullet from the right barrel hit to the left of the bullet shot from the left barrel.
The distance this happens all depends on each barrels accuracy and is in general a non-issue at the distances people use a double rifle.

 

[sestoppelman]

At a certain distance, the bullets can cross paths. Not because of the regulation, but because of the natural spread of each barrel that will make it possible for a bullet from the right barrel hit to the left of the bullet shot from the left barrel.
The distance this happens all depends on each barrels accuracy and is in general a non-issue at the distances people use a double rifle.

That is what I thought but you see above, doubleriflejack says no way.

Jack, I don't think I meant to say the bullets would cross paths at 50 yds per se but that owing to the process, a double regulated to put its bullets close at a certain distance might eventually cross paths, farther down the line. If doubles can shoot to infinity like a bolt rifle, well why then are they regulated, shot, often opined to be limited to, such short distances? Why not shoot them at the Wimbelton Cup match?

 

[spike.t]

ses i know you will know this so dont take offence, but they have to be regulated as you have the 2 barrels, and even though they look like they are in parallel when you 1st shoot them they can be a foot apart at 50/60yds. the regulation is to get them shooting both barrels within the 2 to 3 inch (hopefully) area usually at 50/60 yds. the reason they are regulated at that distance is that they were almost always and in the case of the bigger cals only shot with iron sights and usually at close distances while being used on dangerous game. with my 9.3 the longest shot with the irons on boar was 130 paces, so if regulated correctly they can be used at distances with irons that bolt rifles are. some of the companies that semi mass produce doubles use lasers to regulate their rifles, and i know from friends in the buisiness who make their own doubles but also sell these makes that sometimes it works, but there are some they have to reregulate by shooting them as they are way out. i agree with you that there are probably plenty of doubles out there where the bullets do cross at a certain distance due to the regulation having the bullets impacting too close together at the 50yds testing distance, as if they are closing at that distance they will cross somewhere not too far after. if the rifle is regulated so the bullets are impacting the distance apart or slightly wider than when they leave the rifle, then if there is any convergence/divergence its going to be so far down range its not going to matter especially with the big bores.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

That is what I thought but you see above, doubleriflejack says no way.

Jack, I don't think I meant to say the bullets would cross paths at 50 yds per se but that owing to the process, a double regulated to put its bullets close at a certain distance might eventually cross paths, farther down the line. If doubles can shoot to infinity like a bolt rifle, well why then are they regulated, shot, often opined to be limited to, such short distances? Why not shoot them at the Wimbelton Cup match?

I don't think there are many doubles with so accurate barrels that they will not spread so much at longer distances that the bullets might not cross paths.
And there is for sure not many able to regulate them so well that these accurate barrels will continue to shoot parallel for hundreds of yards.
And it would cost a fortune to do it if you are not extremely lucky.

Just look at what Sabatti has done with some of their doubles to make the barrels shoot rather close to each other. Grinding the rifling at the muzzle
I doubt they are very accurate at longer distances...

 

[sestoppelman]

ses i know you will know this so dont take offence, but they have to be regulated as you have the 2 barrels, and even though they look like they are in parallel when you 1st shoot them they can be a foot apart at 50/60yds. the regulation is to get them shooting both barrels within the 2 to 3 inch (hopefully) area usually at 50/60 yds. the reason they are regulated at that distance is that they were almost always and in the case of the bigger cals only shot with iron sights and usually at close distances while being used on dangerous game. with my 9.3 the longest shot with the irons on boar was 130 paces, so if regulated correctly they can be used at distances with irons that bolt rifles are. some of the companies that semi mass produce doubles use lasers to regulate their rifles, and i know from friends in the buisiness who make their own doubles but also sell these makes that sometimes it works, but there are some they have to reregulate by shooting them as they are way out. i agree with you that there are probably plenty of doubles out there where the bullets do cross at a certain distance due to the regulation having the bullets impacting too close together at the 50yds testing distance, as if they are closing at that distance they will cross somewhere not too far after. if the rifle is regulated so the bullets are impacting the distance apart or slightly wider than when they leave the rifle, then if there is any convergence/divergence its going to be so far down range its not going to matter especially with the big bores.

Thanks Spike, No offense taken here. Just trying to wrap my ageing head around the concept of a double that shoots like a bolt rifle. Not there yet.

 

[AkMike]

Sorry that I didn't get back sooner I was with family at a remote village in Ukraine for the Easter Celebration.

It does look as if the subject has been covered though. The bullets should never cross if the regulation is done properly. Parallel is forever.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

"Parallel" can be forever for the center of each barrels grouping if someone has done an excellent regulation work, but some bullets can still cross paths because of each barrels accuracy(or lack of).

My impression is that double rifle enthusiasts tend to think that their double rifles are as accurate as the better bolt rifles.
I have yet to see a double rifle shoot sub moa with both barrels and still parallel at 200 yards and longer.
There might be some, but I doubt there are many.

 

[spike.t]

"Parallel" can be forever for the center of each barrels grouping if someone has done an excellent regulation work, but some bullets can still cross paths because of each barrels accuracy(or lack of).

My impression is that double rifle enthusiasts tend to think that their double rifles are as accurate as the better bolt rifles.
I have yet to see a double rifle shoot sub moa with both barrels and still parallel at 200 yards and longer.
There might be some, but I doubt there are many.

:headscratch: Nw now you have me wondering what my 9.3 does at 200yds........

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I would love to see the results
I had a few double rifle enthusiasts here in Norway trying to prove to my how great their doubles shoot and I have still to be impressed with their 200 meter shooting

Remember a lucky group doesn't count
Shoot at least 3 groups with 3 shots from each barrel for each group.

If you then get great results(3 x 3" or less groups at 200 yards), I want to buy your double

 

[spike.t]

its over in the uk at the moment so this will have to be a to do in the future, but you have got me wanting to know now and see what it will do!! :nailbiter:

 

[Doubleriflejack]

"At a certain distance, the bullets can cross paths. Not because of the regulation, but because of the natural spread of each barrel that will make it possible for a bullet from the right barrel hit to the left of the bullet shot from the left barrel.
The distance this happens all depends on each barrels accuracy and is in general a non-issue at the distances people use a double rifle."
__________________________
There is no such thing as "the natural spread" of barrels, because, during regulation by a skilled double rifle regulator, he spreads the barrels apart with one or two wedges (which is not a natural spreading), and moves one vertically too, in relationship to the other barrel, to get good final regulation along horizontal plain (for SXS). The standard for big bores bullet impact is 3" spread at 50 yards, but with a lot of patience and skill, a good regulator can sometimes get shots to fire left/right spread of 2" or a little less, and if done properly, the left right bullet impact stays apart; never crossing to infinity. What is meant by that, is that for final check, you shoot not just one shot from each barrel, but you do shoot a group, three or four from each barrel, and take from the left group center point, and the right groups center point, the distance apart, standard being 3" for big bores, etc., as mentioned above. I have done regulation myself, having learned the process in gunsmithing school class taught by W. Ellis Brown, who later wrote his book, Converting Double Shotguns to Double Rifles, in which he explains the whole regulation process, for those of you who wish to read about it. Smaller caliber doubles are regulated at 75 yards, rather than 50 (meaning that is range they are checked, as regulation process is done). The goal of regulation is to get the two barrels to shoot left/right along a horiz. plain (for sxs) with a spread of 3 inches or less, as a standard, though sometimes some of them, with a lot of patience and care, can get down to spread of 2" or slightly less, between centers of two groups, one group from each barrel.

 

[Doubleriflejack]

"from my understanding a properly regulated gun should shoot roughly 1 inch apart at any distance with a given load."
"this rifle does indeed have ejectors."
________________________
Matt, Your understanding is not accurate. The standard regulation for a big bore is 3 inches apart, but sometimes a skilled and patient regulator can get spread down to 2" or slightly less. One inch spread is a real challenge; far from a standard--way too high an expectation for a big bore. A friend I know just test fired a $20,000 double rifle, .470, got 5 inch spread, one inch more spread than you got with a Sabatti priced around $4000+ to $5,000.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Doubleriflejack, my English might be bad and I might use the wrong term when I call it a natural spread.

Each barrel has a inherent accuracy that will give what I call the natural spread of a barrel at a given distance.
This goes for all kinds of rifle barrels, no matter if it is a single shot, double rifle or a bolt rifle.
Not many barrels are able to shoot tighter than 1/2 moa even with a perfect bullet and load for that barrel.
Many have problems to shoot 1 moa.
And when you start soldering 2 barrels together as it is done with many double rifles, this becomes even more difficult because the two barrels affect each other.

So to get by an example a double rifle to shoot a sub 3" group at 200 yards, you first need both barrels to each shoot sub moa and then you need to regulate the two barrels to shoot parallel and sub moa from each other.

If the inherent accuracy of each barrel give you a larger spread than the regulated distance between the two barrels, the bullets from each barrel can cross paths even if the center of each barrel's group don't.