Rigby / Holland & Holland / Westley Richards

[Major Bonkers]

Terry Wieland's two books:

- Dangerous Game Rifles
- Great Hunting Rifles

The first, I suggest, is vital for anyone looking to commission a big bore rifle. At the very least it will allow you to display some basic element of knowledge when you come up against the pin-stripped smoothies determined to sell you over-priced options. The second is not quite so vital, but is certainly useful.

Read them both and you will have more knowledge than 95% of the people working in the London gunrooms!

 

[R eight]

Terry Wieland's two books:

- Dangerous Game Rifles
- Great Hunting Rifles

The first, I suggest, is vital for anyone looking to commission a big bore rifle. At the very least it will allow you to display some basic element of knowledge when you come up against the pin-stripped smoothies determined to sell you over-priced options. The second is not quite so vital, but is certainly useful.

Read them both and you will have more knowledge than 95% of the people working in the London gunrooms!

Nah……the first requirement is a vast amount of cash. The second is an overwhelming desire to spend a lot of that cash.

and if you have both of those then get on a plane and go visit those fellas in the pin stripe suits ( I’m sure the Rigby staff will buy a suit if they know you’re coming) and commission a bespoke “London Best “.

 

[rookhawk]

As noted in my earlier post, I agree with @rookhawk with respect to Hartmann & Weiss. For the well heeled who are au courant with such things, the H&S choice would be particularly enlightened.

Rigby doesn't advertise either the Highland Stalker or Big Game as anything but a production rifle; highest quality production rifle with a few configurable options, but not a Rigby best. For another 15 to 20 quid over the price of their production rifles they will gladly build a client a bespoke best.

H&H and Westley Richards only build rifles to order - bespoke rifles. As @Kevin Peacocke suggests, that business case may or may not be sustainable.

@Red Leg this is why I have concerns with the Rigby at this moment for someone contemplating a $30k-$60k rifle. I believe the price will be driven down by the “cloud” over Rigby’s as a production weapon.

Put into another analogy, the fellow in the OP has “Ferrari Money” to spend. The rigby is a really nice Ford Mustang. Yes, you can spend $200,000 on a fully decked out Foose / Saleen mustang and have parity in pricing to a new Ferrari….but its still a Ford and heirs and secondary buyers will treat it as such.

So any best grade new Rigby will be judged as “wow, a really nicely equipped version of their $13,000 production gun” even if you spend $60,000 on it. Just like a Heym.

But a Hartmann & Weis? When Msrs Hartman and Weis die or retire, that is the end of their best guns. They never made a production gun. Channel and Louis Vuitton will not have a Hartman & Weis production model in their name. They were, are, and always shall be a best maker and a finite amount of future guns will be made by H&W.

In 200 years, I imagine H&H and Rigby labeled guns will still be licensed and made by some guy, somewhere in the world. It takes some of the “special” out of the brands, as does the production model Mentality. Nothing wrong with a $10k production gun, but I certainly wouldn’t want to spend $60k to get an embellished version of a $10k gun.

A bespoke H&W or WR is something with no comparable equal and no economy model in their lineup to compare it to.

To quote the movie Kill Bill: “You do not compare a Hanzo sword to any other sword, only to another Hanzo sword”. That sort of applies to H&W and bespoke WRs. You can only compare them to other bespoke guns by the same makers, you cannot compare them to a production gun by Rigby or H&H.

 

[R eight]

@Red Leg this is why I have concerns with the Rigby at this moment for someone contemplating a $30k-$60k rifle. I believe the price will be driven down by the “cloud” over Rigby’s as a production weapon.

Put into another analogy, the fellow in the OP has “Ferrari Money” to spend. The rigby is a really nice Ford Mustang. Yes, you can spend $200,000 on a fully decked out Foose / Saleen mustang and have parity in pricing to a new Ferrari….but its still a Ford and heirs and secondary buyers will treat it as such.

So any best grade new Rigby will be judged as “wow, a really nicely equipped version of their $13,000 production gun” even if you spend $60,000 on it. Just like a Heym.

But a Hartmann & Weis? When Msrs Hartman and Weis die or retire, that is the end of their best guns. They never made a production gun. Channel and Louis Vuitton will not have a Hartman & Weis production model in their name. They were, are, and always shall be a best maker and a finite amount of future guns will be made by H&W.

In 200 years, I imagine H&H and Rigby labeled guns will still be licensed and made by some guy, somewhere in the world. It takes some of the “special” out of the brands, as does the production model Mentality. Nothing wrong with a $10k production gun, but I certainly wouldn’t want to spend $60k to get an embellished version of a $10k gun.

A bespoke H&W or WR is something with no comparable equal and no economy model in their lineup to compare it to.

To quote the movie Kill Bill: “You do not compare a Hanzo sword to any other sword, only to another Hanzo sword”. That sort of applies to H&W and bespoke WRs. You can only compare them to other bespoke guns by the same makers, you cannot compare them to a production gun by Rigby or H&H.

I think a tour of the Rigby showroom and workshop would dispel any such concerns.

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg this is why I have concerns with the Rigby at this moment for someone contemplating a $30k-$60k rifle. I believe the price will be driven down by the “cloud” over Rigby’s as a production weapon.

Put into another analogy, the fellow in the OP has “Ferrari Money” to spend. The rigby is a really nice Ford Mustang. Yes, you can spend $200,000 on a fully decked out Foose / Saleen mustang and have parity in pricing to a new Ferrari….but its still a Ford and heirs and secondary buyers will treat it as such.

So any best grade new Rigby will be judged as “wow, a really nicely equipped version of their $13,000 production gun” even if you spend $60,000 on it. Just like a Heym.

But a Hartmann & Weis? When Msrs Hartman and Weis die or retire, that is the end of their best guns. They never made a production gun. Channel and Louis Vuitton will not have a Hartman & Weis production model in their name. They were, are, and always shall be a best maker and a finite amount of future guns will be made by H&W.

In 200 years, I imagine H&H and Rigby labeled guns will still be licensed and made by some guy, somewhere in the world. It takes some of the “special” out of the brands, as does the production model Mentality. Nothing wrong with a $10k production gun, but I certainly wouldn’t want to spend $60k to get an embellished version of a $10k gun.

A bespoke H&W or WR is something with no comparable equal and no economy model in their lineup to compare it to.

To quote the movie Kill Bill: “You do not compare a Hanzo sword to any other sword, only to another Hanzo sword”. That sort of applies to H&W and bespoke WRs. You can only compare them to other bespoke guns by the same makers, you cannot compare them to a production gun by Rigby or H&H.

You and I agree on many things, but on this one we’ll just have to respectfully disagree.

That said, I suspect you have exactly captured the business model quandary facing WR. They can refuse to offer a high-end production offering (the Purdey best guns only theory) and continue to bleed revenue until no one else is willing to buy the company and business case. They then become another name up for auction.

Rigby may or may not have hit the right balance point between production and custom, but it is clearly working now and seems to be gaining momentum. And at my age, I could care less what a rifle may be valued half a century from now.

 

[WAB]

@Red Leg this is why I have concerns with the Rigby at this moment for someone contemplating a $30k-$60k rifle. I believe the price will be driven down by the “cloud” over Rigby’s as a production weapon.

Put into another analogy, the fellow in the OP has “Ferrari Money” to spend. The rigby is a really nice Ford Mustang. Yes, you can spend $200,000 on a fully decked out Foose / Saleen mustang and have parity in pricing to a new Ferrari….but its still a Ford and heirs and secondary buyers will treat it as such.

So any best grade new Rigby will be judged as “wow, a really nicely equipped version of their $13,000 production gun” even if you spend $60,000 on it. Just like a Heym.

But a Hartmann & Weis? When Msrs Hartman and Weis die or retire, that is the end of their best guns. They never made a production gun. Channel and Louis Vuitton will not have a Hartman & Weis production model in their name. They were, are, and always shall be a best maker and a finite amount of future guns will be made by H&W.

In 200 years, I imagine H&H and Rigby labeled guns will still be licensed and made by some guy, somewhere in the world. It takes some of the “special” out of the brands, as does the production model Mentality. Nothing wrong with a $10k production gun, but I certainly wouldn’t want to spend $60k to get an embellished version of a $10k gun.

A bespoke H&W or WR is something with no comparable equal and no economy model in their lineup to compare it to.

To quote the movie Kill Bill: “You do not compare a Hanzo sword to any other sword, only to another Hanzo sword”. That sort of applies to H&W and bespoke WRs. You can only compare them to other bespoke guns by the same makers, you cannot compare them to a production gun by Rigby or H&H.

You raise a valid point. The Rigby bespoke gun is not a dolled up big game or highland stalker, however, does Rigby dilute their brand, and thus the value of a bespoke gun, with their semi custom guns?

At the same time, does Rigby care if,as I suspect, their bottom line performance is being driven by the semi custom gun sales?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

This is such an interesting discussion, and I am sorry if I digress from the OP's question a little, but it may help. I am an engineer and it is my curse to very closely analyse things. Lets look at Rigby and Heym, because I know a little bit about them. The steel core is the steel core, high end and low end will be the same steel. The functional heart will be the same design, ie the action form, angles, interacting shapes. So what are we left with? Whether it is cut out of a chunk of steel by hand, or machined by CNC the objective will be achieving as close to the design spec as possible and I can tell you emphatically that modern CNC will be far superior a result overall and achieved in just machine-hours, not man-months. That is the better part of the Ferrari money right there and the rest is in polishing and wood finish. Even those tasks today are easily machineable or assisted.
So my argument is that the production line item is top notch anyway, and rather than look at it as being somehow 'lowly' turn the thing on its head and look at it as the top quality item in design, form, functionality, just not ultimate finish, although that is pretty darn good anyway. Three of the 'F's aren't bad for a third of the price. Call it good F value. It is not as if Rigby or Heym have sullied their name by producing an excellent base product, but they have enhanced it because the quality was achieved with sensibility and economy. They are both London Bests in 3 out of 4 F's and I salute them for that. And if I want the fourth F I can pay some more and have it. What's wrong with that? Not lipstick on a pig, but rather a full blooded stallion, also groomed.

 

[uplander01]

Rook hawk makes many good points, as well as Mr Peacock. I would add this. A Rigby Bolt gun is built on a Mauser 98 current production action. The current 15k model is the exact same gun as the 55k model only difference is wood grade, engraving, Case color, etc. Virtually the same gun. I am not all knowledgable but I would guess the same with WR. The only makers on that side of the pond that I know of that build absolutely every part of the rifle are Hartman Weiss, and Waffen Jung, but I'm sure there are others. If one wants to have a conversation about action quality as a base which Mr Peacock seems to sum up in his own way, lets talk about who builds the best action (as a production action) in the world. In comes Granite Mountain Arms IMO.

I will add this. While the craftsman or artist at WR, Rigby, HH, etc, are I'm sure great at what they do and following traditional methods and processes with modern machining enhancements as mentioned by Mr Peacock, there is still no substitute for an individual "Master" that literally hand makes the entire rifle with absolute obsession for perfection because he is putting his name on it. From what I understand that would be an in essence someone like Theo Jung or Hartman Weiss. Even all of these American Guild guys start with 2 components for the most part, an action, and a barrel, then they start their process. Seems the only thing you can compare it to is traditional art as most would think of it. I'm sure there are people you can teach to make a painting look like a Picasso, but it's still not a Picasso.

I have a friend that is a member American Custom Gunmakers Guild, the way I understand it is what we would consider an American Master Gunmaker builds very few pieces a year. Literally a few. In an article that I read about Fred Wells, his wife said he would "painstakingly build about 4 rifles a year". Duane Weibe, Smithson and Son, Buehler, Breeding, Heilmann, all the same to varying degrees. Seems for the most part an American would agree that engraving is simply an embellishment and the individual "artist" that does that is always sourced out. But the masters that are actually qualified to do the metal and wood from start to finish on a complete rifle are few and far between at the master level. I would venture a guess that WR, HH, Rigby and all the other "big names" in England or elsewhere are running what can only be considered somewhat of an assembly line of semi-production guns. Quite frankly it was probably the same way in England starting somewhere around the mid 1800's. The Business model on both our continents is very similar, not unique. There is a difference in market however. I wouldn't buy an American double rifle if my life depended on it LOL. We have guys that could build them but they don't because know one wants an American double rifle. And if we are being honest I have a crush on old English Doubles. Our market is millions of bolt action rifles in a myriad of fad calibers and hand loading components to keep us all intertwined with the industry and amused by all the gun writers, NRA, NSSF, Safari Club etc that are all bought and paid for by Titans of our firearms industry.

I have worked in the firearms industry in the USA for 20 years now, and this is not intended to sound like dickery,...but there is a reason all of these companies court the market here so intensely. I will not name who I work for but lets just say they are industry titans, many europeans. About 8 years ago I started to really question how it was possible that year after year after year I would still be selling millions of dollars worth of the same guns annually in a 2 state territory. Its like a bottomless well of demand here. Truly a gun culture like know where else in the world. If that ever changes politically I would guess that the financial ripple effect across the world will be impactful. Sorry for my digression, but my point is this. Out of this market has spawned a American Guild that IMO specializes in bolt action rifles. If I was a guy that wanted to spend a wad of cash on such a rifle simply because I wanted to, I would take a hard look at the guys that are risking all, including their pride in their own name, to produce a product that will allow them to sleep at night and relax their own obsession over perfection and a finished product that all they care is that it makes you happy and satisfied. In history the great artist of the different periods were probably pedaling their pieces for pennies to buy food, yet at some point they became priceless.

Sorry for this long diatribe. It's a hard and long winter here in the midwest USA, and business slows up a bit right before the show season. Even though the fella that started this thread has probably checked out 2 pages ago I frankly find this conversation so interesting. No doubt you gents know your business, and I personally like reading it and broadening my information base. If you've made it this far thanks for reading and hearing my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Christot]

It should be mentioned that the actions are not necessarily made from the same steel. The original steel was C35 (AISI 1035) which needed good and different heattreatment on the different parts (some licensed manufacturer had problems with hardening, others with tolerances afterwards). There are 1:1 duplicates (using C35) of currently made actions like those from FZH which are used by some rifle manufacturer like Jung and Velser and than there are actions with different steel alloys. Mayfair engineering (UK) and Granite Mountain (USA) are using AISI 8620 with a tensile strength of about 530 MPa (normal state, with heat treatment more but this applies to C35 as well) which is pretty similar to the orginial steel which has about 550 MPa. Others are using different steel, like Prechtl (42CrMo4 or AISI 4140) which has a tensile strength between 900-1100MPa. This alone may add a safety factor or the option to reduce weight of the action.
Most manufacturer do not tell which actions they use (in-house or externally sourced) or which steel is used which makes an evaluation a bit difficult. At least fully in-house made are those by Hartmann&Weiss, Heym, Kessler and Rigby (by Mauser).

 

[Christot]

Forgot mentioning Prechtl and and the obvious Mauser (who sourced their actions from Prechtl before making them by themselves again).
By the way usually the heat treatment is not made within the same factory as the original machining. Mostly by 3rd parties who are specialized on heat treatment. This is too special to have it in-house (needs a lot of skill, machines, etc.) except you've really large volume which I would doubt many have, especially not those small volume rifle manufacturer. It's not simply putting steel into oil nowadays.

 

[uplander01]

Reaching a point where you engineering types know way more than I about the actual metals. Will say I truly doubt there is a safety concern with any of them. My opinions would only be based on owning most all of them at one time or another. From all the Mauser type actions I've owned the GMA seems to me to have the most attention to the details. If you watch the youtube video of them machining one, in particular the bottom metal its quite impressive.

 

[Randy F]

I've read this thread with a lot of interest and it never ceases to amaze me the wealth of first-hand knowledge and information freely shared by the members here.
It not only confirms my lack of knowledge about these guns but wholly highlights it.

Hence my question...
I realize the OP's question is regarding Rigby/ Holland and Holland/ Westley Richards, but I am curious as to where the members would stack Verney-Carron in this line-up?

 

[Christot]

Concerning machining: this is not so special. Others don't show you all details of manufacturing but if someone makes a Mauser action to original design specifications it will always look the same.

Some notes:
One shortcoming of the original design is that you can only load cartridges from the magazin but not add an additional round into the chamber with the action opened (you might do so but it'll damage the control feed option ). This is something which many modified compared to the original action and worth being checked. Another modification is sometimes made on the floorplate of the magazin. The original version was flat and would block the bolt after the last round being fired. This can be a good indication that you've to reload but it will also prevent you from cycling the action without ammunition (you have to press down the floorplate with your fingers). Therefore some added a ramp to make cycling the action without ammunition possible. Your choice and might be worth checking before placing the order.
Another point is the magazine. If it's perfectly made it will have the shape of the cartridge. All non-straight walled cartridges will be fixed at the shoulder which prevents the cartridges from bouncing forth and back during recoil. This will help preventing bullet displacment because of recoil and I would definitely take a look if this feature is realized.

 

[uplander01]

I know nothing about them or their technology other than what you can read on their website. I'd be interested in learning as you are. Seems to me at this market level speaking generally about this types level of quality firearms, the English reign supreme from a perception standpoint. That however may not be reality. To me, firearms countries of manufacture for high end safari type rifles (bolt & Double) rank as follows in current day and age:

England
Germany/Austria
USA
Italy
France

 

[Aaron N]

Someone said H&W produced the best Mauser actions. This is a question that I have been wondering for a while, which modern action is the best.

Is there a way to quantify how a GMA is better than Mayfair, or a Prechtl better than Mauser?

With CNC machining, there should not be any tolerance issues, so is it in the finish? I would be shocked if a 5k action came to me with tool marks on it. So what makes one better than another?

 

[uplander01]

Honestly, I don't think any one is better by much if at all than the other I would simply choose GMA because I've owned and used 3, all in big bores, which they are developed specifically for, and they have never let me down at all. Machining is only one part, mauser type actions in general were not meant to be super tight like a benchrest gun, so I think the magic is what happens after everything has come off the machines. I know GMA hand laps to an incredible degree every action to meet their "smoothness" parameter. Can't speak to the others. I also know and as you can see in the GMA 416 rigby action for sale on GI right now, they have machine marks when they come to your builder. To me thats not an issue as most artisans have their own ideas about what they want to do for polish and finish from the beginning to end. You could call Roden and he would literally stay on the phone with you for an hour and tell you why, what, and how to it all. Another thing I like.

Also, if I am not mistaken, GMA's are designed to work with a Blackburn trigger. I currently have 2 rifles with those triggers. Honestly can't be described how good they are, you have to experience it.

This may be a silly question, but I honestly don't know, but can one even acquire a current Mauser action as an individual in order to supply it to a builder? I believe you can with the others for sure

 

[Christot]

You mean the Mauser action which is used by Mauser and Rigby? No. Would not really support their business. You usually earn more with wall to wall margins instead of selling components and I think they understood the same.

 

[Christot]

I've read this thread with a lot of interest and it never ceases to amaze me the wealth of first-hand knowledge and information freely shared by the members here.
It not only confirms my lack of knowledge about these guns but wholly highlights it.

Hence my question...
I realize the OP's question is regarding Rigby/ Holland and Holland/ Westley Richards, but I am curious as to where the members would stack Verney-Carron in this line-up?

As Verney-Carron doesn't make any rifles with Mauser actions (at least I haven't found any on their homepage): nowhere

 

[Randy F]

As Verney-Carron doesn't make any rifles with Mauser actions (at least I haven't found any on their homepage): nowhere

Well I’m glad you saw such humor in the question, but your “answer” has absolutely nothing to do with what was a serious question as the OP’s request regards bespoke rifles and while manufacturer specific, was not action specific.
My question for knowledgeable members is where they might rank Verney-Carron in that lineup.

 

[VertigoBE]

This type of thread is one of the reasons I keep on coming back to AH! Thank you to all the experts that have already weighed in on this topic, for taking your time to share your thoughts with others. It is most educating to me and many people here.

@uplander01 : you mention keeping (next to the big names as Rigby, H&H, etc.) the smaller artisans also in your sights when going out purchasing a "best firearm". Here in Belgium I have found a few gunshops, employing gun smiths coming from the world famous Liège Gun school, who also build there own rifles. (A bit like Dumoulin as an example, used to be doing). Would you consider such smaller artisans, without an international name, also viable for such a best of the best firearm?

An example that comes to mind is from Pletsers who builds this:

Paul Pletsers « Paul Pletsers Cal. 416Rigby - 3655

However they still say that their actions comes from Mayfair, their barrels from Lothar, etc. , so as you mention, these smaller artisans still need to source certain specific pieces from other manufacturers.

Would this be a viable alternative?