Rigby / Holland & Holland / Westley Richards

[Woodcarver]

Seems like the easy solution is to just get one of each.

 

[AES]

H&H is the only right answer here … especially given the caliber.

 

[JPmbogo]

I seem to recall that it started out life as a proprietary caliber.

The operative word here is "started." The 375 H&H, the 416 Rigby, and others (e.g. 425 Westley Richards) were developed at the dawn of the 20th century to compete with the 9.3x62 and to provide dangerous game cartridges for the newly developed Mauser action. By the end of WWI, most if not all were in the general stream of firearms commerce.

 

[Pondoro]

From what I have handeled and shot, if we talk bespoke rifles, I would second Westley Richards, Hartmann & Weiss and Rigby.. Some of the finest bespoke rifles I have seen have been from Hartmann & Weiss..

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

From an engineering and functionality point of view Heym I think takes top honours. Their double 89b development is impressive - "A proper English double -made in Germany". That says it all. You can then go on to add whatever engraving you wish, and there is even a London Best option too. But at least the basis of the double is absolutely perfect.

 

[Major Bonkers]

Some more points:

(1) If you don't have them already, Terry Wieland's two books on hunting rifles would be a good purchase. As I write this, I am looking at his description of walnut blanks ('Great Hunting Rifles', p.167) and how gunmakers have inflated the language and price used to describe the wood. You can see a practical example of what he describes on a certain website which allows you to configure your rifle with increasingly expensive blanks, all the way up to 'grade 11', whatever that means. I suspect that only an expert like Kevin Peacocke would be capable of discerning the differences in quality between a grade 10 and a grade 11 blank!

(2) A stroll round the Companies House website is instructive. In the most recent accounts, the annual results are:

● H&H - (2020) loss of £4.8m. An improvement over 2019, when the loss was £10.75m.
● Purdey - (2020) loss of £3.8m. (2019) loss of £4.3m.
● Westley Richards - (2020) loss of £155,000.
● Rigby - (2019) profit of £345,000

No wonder they all try and flog over-priced branded tat as well!

(3) I have always found Hartmann & Weiss bolt-action rifles very heavy. Admittedly, when I have handled them it has been without any English rifle alongside as a comparator. Unless you put a couple of dolly wheels on the stock and roll it around like field artillery it seems to me that any purchaser who takes one out to Africa is just making life unnecessarily miserable for himself.

 

[uplander01]

I would re-iterate, Theo Jung is worth a look, same league as Hartman Weiss. Pretty clear to me that Heyms current bolt action was modeled after those makers in a much more basic form. I agree with Mr Peacock, 10k US for a Heym bolt action that is a working rifle is clearly the best value on the market, as are their doubles (89B). What they do on the bespoke end of things I have no idea. Also agree with another previous post, some of the work I've seen from Martini himself would rival the best there is. To me, spending that kind of money, I would appreciate the fact that you would be dealing with the artist directly that is making your gun, just an opinion.

 

[Sika98k]

Take a look at Deloreac & Deloreac rifles before you part with your hard earned money. They make seriously fine rifles.

 

[Red Leg]

Some more points:

(1) If you don't have them already, Terry Wieland's two books on hunting rifles would be a good purchase. As I write this, I am looking at his description of walnut blanks ('Great Hunting Rifles', p.167) and how gunmakers have inflated the language and price used to describe the wood. You can see a practical example of what he describes on a certain website which allows you to configure your rifle with increasingly expensive blanks, all the way up to 'grade 11', whatever that means. I suspect that only an expert like Kevin Peacocke would be capable of discerning the differences in quality between a grade 10 and a grade 11 blank!

(2) A stroll round the Companies House website is instructive. In the most recent accounts, the annual results are:

● H&H - (2020) loss of £4.8m. An improvement over 2019, when the loss was £10.75m.
● Purdey - (2020) loss of £3.8m. (2019) loss of £4.3m.
● Westley Richards - (2020) loss of £155,000.
● Rigby - (2019) profit of £345,000

No wonder they all try and flog over-priced branded tat as well!

(3) I have always found Hartmann & Weiss bolt-action rifles very heavy. Admittedly, when I have handled them it has been without any English rifle alongside as a comparator. Unless you put a couple of dolly wheels on the stock and roll it around like field artillery it seems to me that any purchaser who takes one out to Africa is just making life unnecessarily miserable for himself.

Hartmann & Weiss will gladly build a rifle to the client's target weight (within reason). Those I have truly handled numbered exactly three. They are not easy to forget. Two were very plain (well, perhaps not the wood), but very elegant "working rifles." One was a .375 and the other a 7x64. Both seemed perfectly balanced and of perfect weight for caliber - one should expect nothing else from them. The third was a lovely, elegant single-shot falling block built around a Heeren action in 6.5x57R. I probably coveted that slim little deer rifle more than anything I have ever held. Unlike the other two it was graced with Germanic oak leaves on the action. Again, it was perfection in every way. None of them remotely needed a gun carriage.

 

[Tom Leoni]

When it comes to British makers, what you get today is not what you used to get 75 years ago--except possibly for the highest-end bespoke sidelocks (H&H) and boxlocks (WR). I am not speaking of the quality of the pieces--one would hope and expect that dishing out high 5 figures for a rifle would get you something of top quality; what I am referring to is the provenance of the components, starting from the steel and on to the actions, stocks and in many cases even barrels.

In Britain, the situation resembles much more the old Birmingham cottage-industry model, but with imported components, which come mostly from the continent (Germany, Italy, in some cases Spain, etc.). To me this dilutes a bit the sense of romance that owning a brand-new English-made rifle would bring me. That's just me, and it's entirely subjective. And it's true that even in the good old days Rigby (for instance) would only slightly modify Mauser-made rifles and sell them with their brand. Again, entirely subjective.

But this is why if I had a $50K+ budget I would probably try to find a pristine vintage rifle and, if needed, send it to the factory for a custom fit. I would still end up with some spare change in my pocket and have a more genuine rifle that could tell stories if it could talk.

 

[chashardy]

I have a slightly different opinion on the "old is better than new" debate. The original Rigby rifles were made by John Rigby in partnership with Mauser. Mauser machined the actions and sent them in the white to Rigby in London and the rifles were built by Rigby's gunsmiths to the buyer's specifications. Only 189 of these rifles were completed before World War I put an end to partnering with German manufacturers.
In the decades after WWI, Rigby went through a number of ownership changes, including a brief stint in the U.S. and the rifles were made with different actions.
The current John Rigby & Co. is part of the same group that owns Mauser, so the Rigby/Mauser partnership is back together. The current owners also acquired all the original design drawings made by John Rigby 100 years ago and the current rifles are being manufactured to the same design specs, however using 21st century technology.
I believe that Mauser's current manufacturing facility, with lasers, computers, etc. is milling the M98 actions to much higher quality standards than was possible 100 years ago. They mill the actions and barrels and ship them in the white to Rigby in London and Rigby gunsmiths build the rifles, both the Big Game model and the London Best model.
So, unless you are lucky enough to own one of the original 189 rifles, and you want a Rigby, you will be buying one made to the same design specs as the 189 rifles. IMHO, just as good or maybe even better.

 

[wesheltonj]

Some more points: . . .

(2) A stroll round the Companies House website is instructive. In the most recent accounts, the annual results are:

● H&H - (2020) loss of £4.8m. An improvement over 2019, when the loss was £10.75m.
● Purdey - (2020) loss of £3.8m. (2019) loss of £4.3m.
● Westley Richards - (2020) loss of £155,000.
● Rigby - (2019) profit of £345,000
.

Perhaps that’s why Chanel sold H&H to Beretta. They’re only so many Princes and Oligarchs who can afford the price.

 

[Major Bonkers]

I've just noticed this attractive Rigby in .375 coming up at Holts in two days. (Usually I avoid the 'sealed bids' auction as it is full of dross.)

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...sp?salelot=IA1221++1128+&refno=174611&image=0

It should be just about possible to get a condition report in the intervening period. There is a substantial saving possible if it is what you want. This was one of the rifles made during the ownership of John Roberts, but appears to be a Mauser action (rather than a CZ Brno), nicely finished, and in suspiciously unused-looking condition.

 

[JPmbogo]

I am looking into having a bolt rifle in 375 H&H built. The rifle would be extensively used for hunting. I would like to know if you guys have any experience good or bad with Rigby Holland and Holland or Westley Richards. I have been around older and vintage Rigbys and Westley Richards but not H&H. Looking for first hand knowledge and information on newer production rifles. Thanks for any help.

275

Here's your rifle: https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...magnum-mauser-deluxe-375.cfm?gun_id=101784326

 

[PerH]

Perhaps that’s why Chanel sold H&H to Beretta. They’re only so many Princes and Oligarchs who can afford the price.

And a much better social media team at Beretta that is not turning it into a highend fashion boutique and odd photoshoots like the ones at Chanel led one were the last few months and got many a HH devotee schocked and polite comments about it removed on FB.

 

[JPmbogo]

Waffen Jung has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, which I hasten to add for me anyway, has been one of the more interesting in some time. However, I digress. I was not familiar with that firm so I went to the Waffen Jung website (https://manufakturtjung.de/en/). The rifles shown there are breathtaking. There is a 500 Jeffery (sold, thank god) that is in a league of its own as they say. Nevertheless, I personally would be hard pressed to commit to a custom gun project in the price range we are talking about on this thread. If I was interested in spending that kind of money, I would like to see the finished product. In other words, there is an incredible number of ultra fine guns out there for sale. I would go that route myself. I am very picky. I would hate to drop 50k only to be disappointed in some minor detail. I have had several custom guns built for me over the years, but not in the "London Best" category, In fact, as I have related on another thread, I have a 404 jeffery in the works by a local custom maker who can stand with the best, but then I am personally acquainted and am involved in detail in the build. I have had, shall we say, mixed experiences with custom ordered guns.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Sentimental reasons aside, there’s one very practical reason you want to choose John Rigby & Co. over Holland & Holland or Westley Richards. Rigby has no issues with people putting modern monolithic bullets through their rifles. Holland & Holland and Westley Richards discourage users from employing monolithic bullets through their wares. They only advocate the use of conventional lead cored bullets.

Personally speaking, were I to have a custom built .375 Holland & Holland Magnum rifle made for me … I’d ask Joe Smithson ( an excellent United States based custom rifle maker ) to build me one on a Granite Mountain Arms Magnum Mauser action. Strongest action in existence, in my opinion.

 

[275r7x57]

Some more points:

(1) If you don't have them already, Terry Wieland's two books on hunting rifles would be a good purchase. As I write this, I am looking at his description of walnut blanks ('Great Hunting Rifles', p.167) and how gunmakers have inflated the language and price used to describe the wood. You can see a practical example of what he describes on a certain website which allows you to configure your rifle with increasingly expensive blanks, all the way up to 'grade 11', whatever that means. I suspect that only an expert like Kevin Peacocke would be capable of discerning the differences in quality between a grade 10 and a grade 11 blank!

(2) A stroll round the Companies House website is instructive. In the most recent accounts, the annual results are:

● H&H - (2020) loss of £4.8m. An improvement over 2019, when the loss was £10.75m.
● Purdey - (2020) loss of £3.8m. (2019) loss of £4.3m.
● Westley Richards - (2020) loss of £155,000.
● Rigby - (2019) profit of £345,000

No wonder they all try and flog over-priced branded tat as well!

(3) I have always found Hartmann & Weiss bolt-action rifles very heavy. Admittedly, when I have handled them it has been without any English rifle alongside as a comparator. Unless you put a couple of dolly wheels on the stock and roll it around like field artillery it seems to me that any purchaser who takes one out to Africa is just making life unnecessarily miserable for himself.

1. Great Hunting Rifles don’t have this one but will order it.

2. Interesting but not surprising.

3. No comment here. Never been around H&R.

275

 

[275r7x57]

Take a look at Deloreac & Deloreac rifles before you part with your hard earned money. They make seriously fine rifles.

Like what I see here. Thanks

275

 

[275r7x57]

Waffen Jung has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, which I hasten to add for me anyway, has been one of the more interesting in some time. However, I digress. I was not familiar with that firm so I went to the Waffen Jung website (https://manufakturtjung.de/en/). The rifles shown there are breathtaking. There is a 500 Jeffery (sold, thank god) that is in a league of its own as they say. Nevertheless, I personally would be hard pressed to commit to a custom gun project in the price range we are talking about on this thread. If I was interested in spending that kind of money, I would like to see the finished product. In other words, there is an incredible number of ultra fine guns out there for sale. I would go that route myself. I am very picky. I would hate to drop 50k only to be disappointed in some minor detail. I have had several custom guns built for me over the years, but not in the "London Best" category, In fact, as I have related on another thread, I have a 404 jeffery in the works by a local custom maker who can stand with the best, but then I am personally acquainted and am involved in detail in the build. I have had, shall we say, mixed experiences with custom ordered guns.

I have never had a London Best rifle built but have had many other customs built. Some by well known makers and some not. Unfortunately I have been disappointed more often than not. Most of the time I have sold them take a loss and move on. Sad to say I have had more satisfaction and pleasure with new or used production rifles than any thing else. Especially good vintage ones.

275