Rigby / Holland & Holland / Westley Richards

[WAB]

Well I’m glad you saw such humor in the question, but your “answer” has absolutely nothing to do with what was a serious question as the OP’s request regards bespoke rifles and while manufacturer specific, was not action specific.
My question for knowledgeable members is where they might rank Verney-Carron in that lineup.

Kevin should chime in on this. He has had quite an adventure with his VC double.

 

[Randy F]

Kevin should chime in on this. He has had quite an adventure with his VC double.

That’s true, I don’t t remember reading the finale to that one.

 

[rookhawk]

I realize the OP's question is regarding Rigby/ Holland and Holland/ Westley Richards, but I am curious as to where the members would stack Verney-Carron in this line-up?

It isn’t in the lineup at all Randy. A V-C is a workable gun, some are quite beautiful in fact. Same for Chapuis. Same for Merkel. But a V-C is not a London best nor is it a Birmingham best, and it certainly isn’t a Hartmann & Weis.

To use a metaphor: we are comparing MacLarens and Ferraris and Lamborghinis in this thread and to add in a V-C is similar to adding Fords and Chevys to the conversation. Nothing wrong with them, but they don’t belong in the same sentences. It also doesn’t mean to be disparaging because most people like Fords and Chevys too and would be proud to own one, they just don’t stack up to a Ferrari if we are talking about luxury.

 

[Randy F]

It isn’t in the lineup at all Randy. A V-C is a workable gun, some are quite beautiful in fact. Same for Chapuis. Same for Merkel. But a V-C is not a London best nor is it a Birmingham best, and it certainly isn’t a Hartmann & Weis.

To use a metaphor: we are comparing MacLarens and Ferraris and Lamborghinis in this thread and to add in a V-C is similar to adding Fords and Chevys to the conversation. Nothing wrong with them, but they don’t belong in the same sentences. It also doesn’t mean to be disparaging because most people like Fords and Chevys too and would be proud to own one, they just don’t stack up to a Ferrari if we are talking about luxury.

Thanks rook, I suspected as much since they and the others weren’t mentioned but I didn’t want to assume…I get enough trouble with that at home.

 

[Sika98k]

A friend of mine ordered a Mauser actioned rifle from Hartmann & Weiss some 3 years ago...300WinMag. It is just perfect...very slick action, stunning dark walnut, discrete and tastefully done scroll.. It made me speechless..

Was that a man from Trysil ?

 

[275r7x57]

This is such an interesting discussion, and I am sorry if I digress from the OP's question a little, but it may help. I am an engineer and it is my curse to very closely analyse things. Lets look at Rigby and Heym, because I know a little bit about them. The steel core is the steel core, high end and low end will be the same steel. The functional heart will be the same design, ie the action form, angles, interacting shapes. So what are we left with? Whether it is cut out of a chunk of steel by hand, or machined by CNC the objective will be achieving as close to the design spec as possible and I can tell you emphatically that modern CNC will be far superior a result overall and achieved in just machine-hours, not man-months. That is the better part of the Ferrari money right there and the rest is in polishing and wood finish. Even those tasks today are easily machineable or assisted.
So my argument is that the production line item is top notch anyway, and rather than look at it as being somehow 'lowly' turn the thing on its head and look at it as the top quality item in design, form, functionality, just not ultimate finish, although that is pretty darn good anyway. Three of the 'F's aren't bad for a third of the price. Call it good F value. It is not as if Rigby or Heym have sullied their name by producing an excellent base product, but they have enhanced it because the quality was achieved with sensibility and economy. They are both London Bests in 3 out of 4 F's and I salute them for that. And if I want the fourth F I can pay some more and have it. What's wrong with that? Not lipstick on a pig, but rather a full blooded stallion, also groomed.

Kevin you make some really good points and agree for the most part. I have always been in to the build of something rather than aesthetics or looks. Great aesthetics is a bonus on top of a great build and adds to it and complements it. Like the old saying built your house on solid ground. Looks and outward appearance are no good if you don’t have a solid foundation. Here in the states we have been marketed to death and brainwashed that looks are more important than what on the inside or what or how something is made. Most things here look good and flashy but are made like crap and are disposable.

275

 

[275r7x57]

Rook hawk makes many good points, as well as Mr Peacock. I would add this. A Rigby Bolt gun is built on a Mauser 98 current production action. The current 15k model is the exact same gun as the 55k model only difference is wood grade, engraving, Case color, etc. Virtually the same gun. I am not all knowledgable but I would guess the same with WR. The only makers on that side of the pond that I know of that build absolutely every part of the rifle are Hartman Weiss, and Waffen Jung, but I'm sure there are others. If one wants to have a conversation about action quality as a base which Mr Peacock seems to sum up in his own way, lets talk about who builds the best action (as a production action) in the world. In comes Granite Mountain Arms IMO.

I will add this. While the craftsman or artist at WR, Rigby, HH, etc, are I'm sure great at what they do and following traditional methods and processes with modern machining enhancements as mentioned by Mr Peacock, there is still no substitute for an individual "Master" that literally hand makes the entire rifle with absolute obsession for perfection because he is putting his name on it. From what I understand that would be an in essence someone like Theo Jung or Hartman Weiss. Even all of these American Guild guys start with 2 components for the most part, an action, and a barrel, then they start their process. Seems the only thing you can compare it to is traditional art as most would think of it. I'm sure there are people you can teach to make a painting look like a Picasso, but it's still not a Picasso.

I have a friend that is a member American Custom Gunmakers Guild, the way I understand it is what we would consider an American Master Gunmaker builds very few pieces a year. Literally a few. In an article that I read about Fred Wells, his wife said he would "painstakingly build about 4 rifles a year". Duane Weibe, Smithson and Son, Buehler, Breeding, Heilmann, all the same to varying degrees. Seems for the most part an American would agree that engraving is simply an embellishment and the individual "artist" that does that is always sourced out. But the masters that are actually qualified to do the metal and wood from start to finish on a complete rifle are few and far between at the master level. I would venture a guess that WR, HH, Rigby and all the other "big names" in England or elsewhere are running what can only be considered somewhat of an assembly line of semi-production guns. Quite frankly it was probably the same way in England starting somewhere around the mid 1800's. The Business model on both our continents is very similar, not unique. There is a difference in market however. I wouldn't buy an American double rifle if my life depended on it LOL. We have guys that could build them but they don't because know one wants an American double rifle. And if we are being honest I have a crush on old English Doubles. Our market is millions of bolt action rifles in a myriad of fad calibers and hand loading components to keep us all intertwined with the industry and amused by all the gun writers, NRA, NSSF, Safari Club etc that are all bought and paid for by Titans of our firearms industry.

I have worked in the firearms industry in the USA for 20 years now, and this is not intended to sound like dickery,...but there is a reason all of these companies court the market here so intensely. I will not name who I work for but lets just say they are industry titans, many europeans. About 8 years ago I started to really question how it was possible that year after year after year I would still be selling millions of dollars worth of the same guns annually in a 2 state territory. Its like a bottomless well of demand here. Truly a gun culture like know where else in the world. If that ever changes politically I would guess that the financial ripple effect across the world will be impactful. Sorry for my digression, but my point is this. Out of this market has spawned a American Guild that IMO specializes in bolt action rifles. If I was a guy that wanted to spend a wad of cash on such a rifle simply because I wanted to, I would take a hard look at the guys that are risking all, including their pride in their own name, to produce a product that will allow them to sleep at night and relax their own obsession over perfection and a finished product that all they care is that it makes you happy and satisfied. In history the great artist of the different periods were probably pedaling their pieces for pennies to buy food, yet at some point they became priceless.

Sorry for this long diatribe. It's a hard and long winter here in the midwest USA, and business slows up a bit right before the show season. Even though the fella that started this thread has probably checked out 2 pages ago I frankly find this conversation so interesting. No doubt you gents know your business, and I personally like reading it and broadening my information base. If you've made it this far thanks for reading and hearing my thoughts on the matter.

I started this thread and fully agree and understand where you are coming from. The business I’m in is much the same. Thanks for your thoughts and making for some interesting reading.

275

 

[275r7x57]

I've read this thread with a lot of interest and it never ceases to amaze me the wealth of first-hand knowledge and information freely shared by the members here.
It not only confirms my lack of knowledge about these guns but wholly highlights it.

Hence my question...
I realize the OP's question is regarding Rigby/ Holland and Holland/ Westley Richards, but I am curious as to where the members would stack Verney-Carron in this line-up?

Verney-Carron is out of the question for me as far as a rifle goes. Maybe a shotgun.

275

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Kevin should chime in on this. He has had quite an adventure with his VC double.

Don't confuse Verney-Carron with Attelier Verney-Carron, which is their high end specialist shop. AVC do indeed produce a bolt rifle, the one I examined was extremely well finished and quite beautiful, looked to be a Mauser action, but I never fired it. In a downtown Johannesburg gun shop it was about US$30,000.
As to my VC double it too came from AVC, but I dare say this was their attempt at a lower cost pretty gun that was not properly finished or vetted. The short story of the ending is that I discovered tolerance issues and corrected them myself. It now closes properly and no longer bursts open upon firing, but the top barrel still has the 4 thou excess head space. That is incurable, they sent me unmachined exectors at my request, idea being we head space on the ejector, but I can't find anyone to take on the work. So the gun fires fine and you will never know about the problem if you always use new brass. I am trying to sell it at a huge discount with disclosure, as my new double is ordered, but no takers so far.

 

[Pondoro]

Was that a man from Trysil ?

Yes Sir..

 

[Sika98k]

Yes Sir..

It’s a small world ! Greetings to Ola when you next see him.

 

[uplander01]

To answer your question VertigoBE in regard to considering rifle from individuals from in your direct words "gunsmiths from the world famous Leige school"? Absolutely yes! The example you post....look at that rifle. Is there anything about that piece that isn't "best grade"? I think sometimes we all have a tendency to get caught up in name brands steeped in tradition and miss individual expressions of the art. I get it, I really do. But my safe is full of collaborations that I love and understand. Names like Herman Waldron--a self taught airline machinist that crafted incredible mauser barreled actions, down to completely making the sight set for each individual rifle! Then he would let his buddy Gary Goudy do the stocking. Google those names and look at the examples. Mark Moon who for the most part used a German immigrant to do teh metal work in the basement of his house.....have a magazine article about that in the safe with the 375 I bought that the gunsamerica link is still active that you can google.

Honestly unless you're willing to pay for a Jung, HW, etc. I think it is best to look at collaborations by specialist in each category. Someone please enlighten me as to what a WR or HH or Rigby can produce that is better than this american collaboration listed below:

Fisher, Heilmann, Hands 416 Rigby for sale

Fisher, Heilmann, Hands 416 Rigby for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

[rookhawk]

To answer your question VertigoBE in regard to considering rifle from individuals from in your direct words "gunsmiths from the world famous Leige school"? Absolutely yes! The example you post....look at that rifle. Is there anything about that piece that isn't "best grade"? I think sometimes we all have a tendency to get caught up in name brands steeped in tradition and miss individual expressions of the art. I get it, I really do. But my safe is full of collaborations that I love and understand. Names like Herman Waldron--a self taught airline machinist that crafted incredible mauser barreled actions, down to completely making the sight set for each individual rifle! Then he would let his buddy Gary Goudy do the stocking. Google those names and look at the examples. Mark Moon who for the most part used a German immigrant to do teh metal work in the basement of his house.....have a magazine article about that in the safe with the 375 I bought that the gunsamerica link is still active that you can google.

Honestly unless you're willing to pay for a Jung, HW, etc. I think it is best to look at collaborations by specialist in each category. Someone please enlighten me as to what a WR or HH or Rigby can produce that is better than this american collaboration listed below:

Fisher, Heilmann, Hands 416 Rigby for sale

Fisher, Heilmann, Hands 416 Rigby for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

As pretty as that best gun is with its $125,000 asking price, unless the estate has very explicit instructions as to who the names are of the other 3-4 fanboys of those makers so they can reach out get them to buy it, it will hit the general market.

And what will a dealer pay for that gun? $8000. And they’ll sell it, and not instantly, for $15,000.

That’s the problem of buying a best gun for best money from a group of makers that few to none have ever heard of before. You can’t open up the blue book of gun values and get even a wide price range of what this type of gun costs the way you can for a WR, Purdey, HH, or H&W.

Always remember the reasons that something is valuable. The more boxes checked, the more likely to be valuable.

-It is rare / scarce
-The replacement cost is high
-It is popular
-It is in excellent to flawless condition
-It was built to the highest possible quality

In the case of that picture, I’m unsure if it is rare, meaning I do not know if there is more supply of unsold $125,000 guns like it than demand. Replacement cost surely cannot be higher than asking price, so it fails that data point. It is not popular, the named makers are largely unknown.

So its an excellent condition gun built to the highest possible standard of quality And nothing more. That’s why that rifle is a 1000x harder to sell than an H&H or WR. If you’re wealthy enough to not care that the gun is closer to worthless than six figures for your estate to disposition, that’s reasonable. I know very few people that manage their finances with that outlook even if they have net-worths approaching 9-figures.

 

[uplander01]

Your analytics for decision making are absolutely correct, they are the exact factors I used when buying collections for one of the large chain stores here in the US. However, if the decision to buy any of the stuff we are talking about are guided by the perception that in your lifetime any of it matters, you're probably not the customer for any of this stuff. Guys that buy this art, do it because they can, and its a small circle. Realistic market for mid range HH,WR, Purdey, Jung etc,.....001% of the rifle buyer market, maybe, and that actucally is still pretty big. I evaluated a very nice collection of a extremely wealthy guy that was accumulated over a 40 year period of time here in western Michigan about 5 years ago, while sitting there with my buddy, in an underground vault the size of most peoples living rooms, we looked at each other and laughed because we were thinking the same thing. This old saying we had when looking at the coolest stuff ever..."you could fit the real market buyers for this stuff into a taco bell bathroom". Over his lifetime I'm sure he paid at least 5 million US for all the stuff. But it all makes sense when you're inside a 10 million dollar house that has a helo pad, to take him to his Jet.lol

 

[JPmbogo]

"Toys for boys" (and maybe girls, as well - have to be a bit PC these days). Once one goes beyond a decent production gun, which will do the job as well as any "bespoke," then cost doesn't matter nor does potential resale, that is as long as you can "write the check." Further, I often wonder how many of these truly high end guns experience a real hunt or even ever see the light of day - can you say "safe queens"?

 

[rookhawk]

Your analytics for decision making are absolutely correct, they are the exact factors I used when buying collections for one of the large chain stores here in the US. However, if the decision to buy any of the stuff we are talking about are guided by the perception that in your lifetime any of it matters, you're probably not the customer for any of this stuff. Guys that buy this art, do it because they can, and its a small circle. Realistic market for mid range HH,WR, Purdey, Jung etc,.....001% of the rifle buyer market, maybe, and that actucally is still pretty big. I evaluated a very nice collection of a extremely wealthy guy that was accumulated over a 40 year period of time here in western Michigan about 5 years ago, while sitting there with my buddy, in an underground vault the size of most peoples living rooms, we looked at each other and laughed because we were thinking the same thing. This old saying we had when looking at the coolest stuff ever..."you could fit the real market buyers for this stuff into a taco bell bathroom". Over his lifetime I'm sure he paid at least 5 million US for all the stuff. But it all makes sense when you're inside a 10 million dollar house that has a helo pad, to take him to his Jet.lol

Respectfully, I don't believe I agree with the mentality of the affluent. There is an assumption in collectibles that the rich are dumb and exhibit conspicuous consumption, throwing caution to the wind with their purchases because of their massive wealth. The affluent don't throw their shrewdness out the window once they get rich, it's a persistent life approach. While I grew up lower class to lower middle class, through business, club, and in-law contacts I've certainly met hundreds of people that were in the 9-figure wealth club. By any measure, that's not rich, that's super-rich. Nearing the Forbes 400. What I've found is that the mentality of someone that became rich is generally consistent. They do not piss money away flagrantly if they earned the money themselves. Less than 10% of the US billionaires are hereditary wealth where you might find more irrational spending. I certainly know there is a world where people will buy bespoke weapons for themselves that approach a quarter to a half-million dollars, but most of the affluent still gravitate towards known brands at those price points as well. That might be Purdey, it might be Picasso, whatever art preference we're discussing.

If the brand isn't widely recognizable and saleable at Holts, Christies, Sothebys, and other auction houses, there is a smaller market even amongst those that "could" buy it. Especially since the bespoke experience is not resalable, only the finished good.

We can just agree to disagree in a friendly way. It's all conjecture into the mentality of man. I'd still say a bespoke WR or Hartmann & Weis will have the most lasting appeal for both owner and heirs amongst anyone that is buying a weapon that may be approaching six figures.

 

[uplander01]

I don't think we are actually in disagreement my friend as you hit the nail right on the head...."conjecture into the mentality of a man". Could not be put any better. I don't have to worry about heirs and what not,...if I die with a nickel in my pocket I died a piece of bubble gum short. I personally like the english rifles because of the providence, I only have one, a Manton Best Boxlock Double 470, and I bought it to hunt this year, I'll never spend that much on a rifle again, although I could. Part of the fun for me, and a lot of guys I work with is the damn gear, WR boots, slings for the english sling eyes, cartridge belts, the books, traditional safari clothing, etc.....it goes on and on and on. We love the big names and tradition as much as anyone, trouble is we have to work for a living and shoulda mad a different choice 30 years ago if a guy wanted to make a career out of hunting in Africa. Sadly I didn't even know it was an option the way I grew up. I thought hunting meant killing enough ducks, pheasant, and whitetails to eat all year. I was not enlightened until my late twenties when I was already hooked in a marriage to a lawyer that wanted nothing to do with Africa.---BTW I did escape that.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[VertigoBE]

@rookhawk

Could I surmise your position concerning the importance of name, when buying a best firearm as follows: It is not about buying a bling bling name for the sake of the glitters, nor even because this will guarantee a higher quality standard than a no-name firearm. But rather that with the name, market recognition is bought that should translate into the item keeping and carrying its perceived value throughout the years. And in the case of a resale, less loss of value should occur.

As a simple example of what I mean: The best rifle in .416 Rigby that I linked to, from a (at least currently) unknown Belgian maker @ 22KEUR would be a worse buy than a Rigby Big Game semi-production model in the same caliber with a few options @ 15KEUR. Because the no-name will never be re-sellable above 10KEUR, while the Rigby, by sheer name, will probably remain with a value above 10KEUR if resold.

Perhaps in more simple terms:

The discerning buyer of fine firearms needs to have brand and name play an importance in his choice of purchase, not for himself, as he is discerning (on the quality, etc.) but due to the lack of knowledge and appreciation of quality of everyone else potentially in the market for such a type of firearm.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk

Could I surmise your position concerning the importance of name, when buying a best firearm as follows: It is not about buying a bling bling name for the sake of the glitters, nor even because this will guarantee a higher quality standard than a no-name firearm. But rather that with the name, market recognition is bought that should translate into the item keeping and carrying its perceived value throughout the years. And in the case of a resale, less loss of value should occur.

As a simple example of what I mean: The best rifle in .416 Rigby that I linked to, from a (at least currently) unknown Belgian maker @ 22KEUR would be a worse buy than a Rigby Big Game semi-production model in the same caliber with a few options @ 15KEUR. Because the no-name will never be re-sellable above 10KEUR, while the Rigby, by sheer name, will probably remain with a value above 10KEUR if resold.

Perhaps in more simple terms:

The discerning buyer of fine firearms needs to have brand and name play an importance in his choice of purchase, not for himself, as he is discerning (on the quality, etc.) but due to the lack of knowledge and appreciation of quality of everyone else potentially in the market for such a type of firearm.

A bit more nuanced.

there is one true saying: “buy the gun, not the maker”. That can be true. If you see a best gun, buy it if the price is right. But do not buy a best gun from an obscure or “tarnished” maker for “best gun” pricing.

As to buying a new gun. Don’t buy a bespoke gun paying bespoke prices when it’s built on a production gun. You’ll lose your shirt. Example would be your $80,000 heym, a best heym. You bought it as new second hand for $15,000? Where’s the missing $65,000? An affluent person lost all that equity as they were rich enough to buy stupidly but poor enough to sell it at auction in less than a decade.

Another reason I recommended Westley Richards and Hartmann & Weis is that there is no confusion as to what you would have purchased. If you say “modern made” I need not ask what month and year. Full stop. It’s a best quality gun.

But if you bought a Rigby or a Holland. Just saying “post war, modern era”. I have absolutely no idea what trash or treasure you purchased. That confusing cloud over their brands means all their guns value suffer a bit on the resale. Paso Robles Rigby double rifles that are really $8000 merkels. 1980s Rigby shotguns that are really Spanish Arizabalagas worth $5000? Holland & Holland 1970s shotguns that are really Webley 700s worth $2000? Atrocious 1970-1980 Rigby Mausers in .270 that sold for $1200 new? Those choices sullied the brands and it injures the long-term value of a new best gun from those makers. H&H did the same a hundred years ago but it’s a tale for another time

You just have to give some forethought to the maker when you’re buying a $60,000+ firearm if you think you or your heirs might want some or all the money back, or a handsome profit.

Not to be morbid, but when Hartmann & Weis pass away, those works of art will likely go up in value beyond purchase price which is actually fairly reasonable for a bespoke best rifle.

 

[Nevada Mike]

If the name on the rifle is important to you, get a Brit rifle from on of the aforementioned makers. If a true, high quality, custom rifle is what you need/want look at small American custom makers, which will cost you less than half as much and will be as fine as any rifle you can buy, at any price.

I ordered a custom 404 Jeffery from Reto Buehler and specified all the details, had a fitting at his shop with a 'try gun'in .375 H&H. I provided a French Walnut blank, subject to Reto' approval. It is built on a stretched, small ring Mauser 98 action from Granite Mountain Arms. The gun delivered is perfect in every way and is extremely accurate. It is fully the equal of any Brit rifle in all ways, and handsome as well. It is made entirely in the USA.

Cost? Less than $20,000... about the cost of a Brit 'production' rifle from a major name maker. I am not sorry I went this route and am taking the rifle to Tanzania for a 21 day safari this year.