Rigby / Holland & Holland / Westley Richards

[275r7x57]

Sentimental reasons aside, there’s one very practical reason you want to choose John Rigby & Co. over Holland & Holland or Westley Richards. Rigby has no issues with people putting modern monolithic bullets through their rifles. Holland & Holland and Westley Richards discourage users from employing monolithic bullets through their wares. They only advocate the use of conventional lead cored bullets.

Personally speaking, were I to have a custom built .375 Holland & Holland Magnum rifle made for me … I’d ask Joe Smithson ( an excellent United States based custom rifle maker ) to build me one on a Granite Mountain Arms Magnum Mauser action. Strongest action in existence, in my opinion.

I know WR had issues with the use of monolithic bullets but was not aware of H&H.

I have heard great things about Jie Smithson and like what I see but never talked with him.

275

 

[JPmbogo]

As you can see by the many responses to your initial inquiry, it is quite easy for the membership on this forum to spend someone else's money. That said, I think that going to London and doing the whole deal with one of the classic makers would be an experience of a lifetime, similar to a very special hunting safari. If you have the time and desire and ability - go for it. But if you do, please keep us all posted on the adventure! And to add my final two cents worth, if it was a 375 H&H I wanted, Holland & Holland would be my choice.

 

[John Telford]

Since when are the venerable 375 H&H and 416 Rigby "proprietary cartridges."

Since 1911 for Rigby and 1912 for H&H !

 

[John Telford]

Yes these cartridges have been released to the trade but they were designed by the respective gun houses during the great bolt action arms race early in the 20th century.
WR had the .425 . Which I would not waste time or money having one custom built by WR. There are enough pre war examples floating around.

 

[R eight]

I have never had a London Best rifle built but have had many other customs built. Some by well known makers and some not. Unfortunately I have been disappointed more often than not. Most of the time I have sold them take a loss and move on. Sad to say I have had more satisfaction and pleasure with new or used production rifles than any thing else. Especially good vintage ones.

275

I said it earlier and I still think the same.....which is easy to do when I'm spending your money. (my wife taught me that)....Get on a plane fly to London, commission your bespoke H&H in 375 H&H. Then on the way back to the airport swing by Rigby and get them to measure you up for a semi-custom stock / off the shelf Big Game in .416 Rigby.

Best of both worlds. You've got the Rigby to use straight away and in a couple of years you'll also have a bespoke H&H. Two beautiful rifles.

You can't loose.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

And a much better social media team at Beretta that is not turning it into a highend fashion boutique and odd photoshoots like the ones at Chanel led one were the last few months and got many a HH devotee schocked and polite comments about it removed on FB.

H&H sank to a very low place. I used to visit the shop every time I went to London (a lot) and saw the transition to the point where the gun section occupied just a little nook at the back and the rest was a frilly underpants store in some kind of puke green colour. You could see the hurt on the faces of the people working there. Chanel should hang their heads in shame and fire the woke idiot who directed this. Lets hope Beretta restores it to glory, but we all know it needs to follow the Rigby model - an affordable volume production model for the everyday man with a few high ends for the few who can afford it.

 

[rookhawk]

I’ve never been in the financial position to buy a new bespoke English rifle so I can’t speak from a current owner perspective on what these firms are putting out today. I have certainly handled a few of the Rigbys and Westleys of the 21st century era but not any Hollands.

In my opinion, the Rigby rifles that are in the $9000-$14000 price range are as advertised. Semi-custom. Semi-mass produced. Nice rifles. Are they best guns? I don’t think so. I think they are high-grade production rifles not dissimilar to my Heyms.

The westleys I’ve seen were more expensive and more bespoke pieces.

No idea what H&H is outputting for magazine rifles recently so I can’t comment if they are better or worse today. In vintage H&H I’ve seen best guns and then I’ve seen pretty crude 1970s weapons that are overpriced for what they are.

Of the three choices you provided in the “new, made to order” scenario, I would go with the Westley Richards. If buying golden-era vintage I would go with the Rigby or the Westley.

The original post did omit a 4th option that should not have been overlooked in my opinion and is superior to the other options listed that I’ve actually handled. For similar money as a Westley (more than a rigby by a fair margin) he could order a Hartmann and Weis whlie the makers are still living and taking on work with fairly swift 1.5 year turnaround times. I do not believe there is a finer rifle available today anywhere in the world. I suspect a Hartmann & Weis will appreciate in value over time in a way the others may not.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I have a slightly different opinion on the "old is better than new" debate. The original Rigby rifles were made by John Rigby in partnership with Mauser. Mauser machined the actions and sent them in the white to Rigby in London and the rifles were built by Rigby's gunsmiths to the buyer's specifications. Only 189 of these rifles were completed before World War I put an end to partnering with German manufacturers.
In the decades after WWI, Rigby went through a number of ownership changes, including a brief stint in the U.S. and the rifles were made with different actions.
The current John Rigby & Co. is part of the same group that owns Mauser, so the Rigby/Mauser partnership is back together. The current owners also acquired all the original design drawings made by John Rigby 100 years ago and the current rifles are being manufactured to the same design specs, however using 21st century technology.
I believe that Mauser's current manufacturing facility, with lasers, computers, etc. is milling the M98 actions to much higher quality standards than was possible 100 years ago. They mill the actions and barrels and ship them in the white to Rigby in London and Rigby gunsmiths build the rifles, both the Big Game model and the London Best model.
So, unless you are lucky enough to own one of the original 189 rifles, and you want a Rigby, you will be buying one made to the same design specs as the 189 rifles. IMHO, just as good or maybe even better.

Exactly, hence my comment earlier in this thread, the new Rigby rifles are just as good as they have ever been, if not better.

 

[WAB]

I’ve never been in the financial position to buy a new bespoke English rifle so I can’t speak from a current owner perspective on what these firms are putting out today. I have certainly handled a few of the Rigbys and Westleys of the 21st century era but not any Hollands.

In my opinion, the Rigby rifles that are in the $9000-$14000 price range are as advertised. Semi-custom. Semi-mass produced. Nice rifles. Are they best guns? I don’t think so. I think they are high-grade production rifles not dissimilar to my Heyms.

The westleys I’ve seen were more expensive and more bespoke pieces.

No idea what H&H is outputting for magazine rifles recently so I can’t comment if they are better or worse today. In vintage H&H I’ve seen best guns and then I’ve seen pretty crude 1970s weapons that are overpriced for what they are.

Of the three choices you provided in the “new, made to order” scenario, I would go with the Westley Richards. If buying golden-era vintage I would go with the Rigby or the Westley.

The original post did omit a 4th option that should not have been overlooked in my opinion and is superior to the other options listed that I’ve actually handled. For similar money as a Westley (more than a rigby by a fair margin) he could order a Hartmann and Weis whlie the makers are still living and taking on work with fairly swift 1.5 year turnaround times. I do not believe there is a finer rifle available today anywhere in the world. I suspect a Hartmann & Weis will appreciate in value over time in a way the others may not.

Rigby also makes bespoke rifles that will compete with similar offerings from the other makers.

 

[WAB]

H&H sank to a very low place. I used to visit the shop every time I went to London (a lot) and saw the transition to the point where the gun section occupied just a little nook at the back and the rest was a frilly underpants store in some kind of puke green colour. You could see the hurt on the faces of the people working there. Chanel should hang their heads in shame and fire the woke idiot who directed this. Lets hope Beretta restores it to glory, but we all know it needs to follow the Rigby model - an affordable volume production model for the everyday man with a few high ends for the few who can afford it.

Kevin,
I agree with your comments on Chanel’s influence, however, you may have missed the gun room. The last time I was there they had moved it upstairs and it is entry upon request.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Kevin,
I agree with your comments on Chanel’s influence, however, you may have missed the gun room. The last time I was there they had moved it upstairs and it is entry upon request.

Ok, thanks WAB. I saw the two guys at the back, they never mentioned it. Kevin

 

[Laniarius]

I was in London in early March 2020, the week that lockdowns started happening. I visited H&H and found my way to the gun room at the back, after several twists and turns through rooms full of nice clothing. I think I had to sneak past a minotaur on the way.

 

[uplander01]

As far a American makers,....agree with the previous comment on Joe Smithson,....and would add one more name, Reto Buehler, almost pulled the trigger on a project a couple of times, just didn't do it. You will not find a more thorough guy and he loves classic styling.

 

[Red Leg]

As noted in my earlier post, I agree with @rookhawk with respect to Hartmann & Weiss. For the well heeled who are au courant with such things, the H&S choice would be particularly enlightened.

Rigby doesn't advertise either the Highland Stalker or Big Game as anything but a production rifle; highest quality production rifle with a few configurable options, but not a Rigby best. For another 15 to 20 quid over the price of their production rifles they will gladly build a client a bespoke best.

H&H and Westley Richards only build rifles to order - bespoke rifles. As @Kevin Peacocke suggests, that business case may or may not be sustainable.

 

[uplander01]

Big Game .375 H&H34013

As the finest store for hunting and fly-fishing gear, hunting clothing, ammo, sporting art, and travel supplies, we have what you need to get you to where you are going and ensure success in the field.

gordyandsons.com

If you want a Rigby 375, here is what they think brings 55,000 US dollars, no thanks

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Big Game .375 H&H34013

As the finest store for hunting and fly-fishing gear, hunting clothing, ammo, sporting art, and travel supplies, we have what you need to get you to where you are going and ensure success in the field.

gordyandsons.com

If you want a Rigby 375, here is what they think brings 55,000 US dollars, no thanks

For that money I’d be tempted by this https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...16-rigby-a-best-gun-mint.cfm?gun_id=101753548

 

[uplander01]

Agreed, however there is a small crack in the wrist of that rifle, you can actually see it in the picks, and it was very apparent in the video he did about that rifle. There is however a 2nd Jung rifle that is even a bit nicer on the market right now IMO, but it looks like its been hunted.

 

[Red Leg]

Big Game .375 H&H34013

As the finest store for hunting and fly-fishing gear, hunting clothing, ammo, sporting art, and travel supplies, we have what you need to get you to where you are going and ensure success in the field.

gordyandsons.com

If you want a Rigby 375, here is what they think brings 55,000 US dollars, no thanks

This is for a bespoke Rigby ordered to the client's specifications - starting price. Gordy & Sons is one of their ten or so US dealers. For that rifle and that cost, or a best WR or H&H, I am traveling to the UK to place the order and discuss the rifle.

The production Rigby "Big Game" sells for $14000 to $19000 depending upon which of three configurations the customer wants.

Think Big Game. Think Rigby. - John Rigby & Co.

www.johnrigbyandco.com

 

[Christot]

The problem is not the price (with both of these excellent rifles). We should be glad if someone is able to afford such a rifle and honor the artists involved in the production of such a rifle. The problem with those offers is that those people usually will have the money to configurate such a rifle excactly according to their wishes. I would wonder if a personally fitted stock + balance would not be top priority besides function when ordering such a rifle. Also a personal choice of engraving can usually be expected. Be it the motive, the style of engraving (be it bulino, crimshaw or relief-engraving for example). So I would expect them not selling too fast.

Note: While a blued rifle is somehow traditional you see it wears off fast. I would prefer a DLC surface treatment. Same look, much more wear resistance.

 

[Pondoro]

A friend of mine ordered a Mauser actioned rifle from Hartmann & Weiss some 3 years ago...300WinMag. It is just perfect...very slick action, stunning dark walnut, discrete and tastefully done scroll.. It made me speechless..