Rifle barrels that will withstand a barrel burner caliber - 6.5X68S

[Inline6]

If it is high velocity you want, look at a 7mm Allen Mag.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Inline, the challenge with wild cutters are the components to reload is not available on gun shop shelves ..it just do not make it financial viable to take that route ..

 

[bruce moulds]

using a 200 zero for all is not really the best comparison.
a more fair way to look at is is to use a trajectory of say +/- 3", and call that point blank range.
then the faster rounds do start to show more benefit.
I have both a 280 rem and a 7mm stw, and believe me there is a noticeable difference in both point blank range, and power when it gets there.
the bigger case can also shoot flatter with heavier bullets than the smaller one does with lighter ones.
there is a place for both.
bruce.

 

[Brent James]

What type of accuracy are you seeing out of the CM barrels? To be honest I never even thought of giving one a chance.

The shilen chrome moly match generally gives anywhere up to .5 moa @ 100. Largest calibre I've had in the cm match was a 300 weatherby, that was only a sporter profile. Still shot no more than .6 moa, when new.

 

[Inline6]

The shilen chrome moly match generally gives anywhere up to .5 moa @ 100. Largest calibre I've had in the cm match was a 300 weatherby, that was only a sporter profile. Still shot no more than .6 moa, when new.

Thank you sir

 

[IdaRam]

“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder” comes to mind
If hunting small to medium game inside of 300 yards, no question and no debate. High horsepower “barrel burners” have little to recommend their use. But I really don’t think that was the intent in mind in the OP?
If you want to stretch the legs and reach out to 500 yards and beyond for targets such as steel or paper, or in certain specialized circumstances like Pronghorn in the western US, or Sheep in the Rocky Mountains, there is a lot to recommend a “barrel burner”.

Gert, the difference between moderate recoil, not-so-flat-shooting 7mm cartridges and super intense, barrel eating, hard recoil monsters that "are flat shooting" is nearly a rounding error.

Anyway you look at it, to get a major improvement in "flatness" you're doping the wind and turning turrets. For reasonable shooting distances almost anything is point-and-click or a simple known holdover.

Let me give you a couple examples all at 200-yard zeroes:

7x57 has 12-14 pounds of felt recoil. It sends a 175gr bullet at 2450fps.
-3" @ 250 yards
-8" @ 300 yards
-15" @ 350 yards
-24" @ 400 yards

The 7x64 (and the 280 Remington clone). It sends a 140gr @ 2950fps with 17 pounds of felt recoil. Even dropping from 175gr to 140 gr, look at all you get for ballistic improvement - almost none!
-3" @ 250
-7" @ 300
-13" @350
-21" @ 400

Now lets go to the nastiest recoiling, baddest 7mm of them all, the 7mm Weatherby Magnum with a 140gr bullet @ 3250fps with 20lbs of felt recoil.
-2" @ 250
-6" @ 300
-11" @ 350
-17" @ 400


As you'll note, the high cost of ammo, the excessive wear to barrel, and the increased recoil aren't getting you very much for all the trouble of say the 7mm Weatherby versus the old fashioned 7x57 / 275 Rigby.

At 400 yards, you're figuring out a firing solution with any of the 3 examples above. At 300 yards you're pulling the trigger with a center body shot on all three, firing solution not required. If you do a 7mm weatherby versus a 7x57, you are getting nearly 80% more recoil for the benefit of about 5" less drop at 400 yards with like-for-like ammo.

From another perspective, the 7mm STW delivers a velocity at 500 yards with a high B.C. 175 gr bullet that is very close to equal to the .275 Rigby at the muzzle. Or expressed another way, very close to the same energy at 500 yards as the .275 at the muzzle.
And we haven’t even talked about wind drift yet, an even greater consideration in my opinion. Compare drift at 500 yards between a 140 gr started at 2800 vs a 175 gr started at 3050. Beyond 500 yards, well...

A ballistic illustration from the other point of view.

140 gr Accubond .485 BC
160 gr Accubond .531 BC
175 gr Accubond LR .648 BC

200 Yard Zero
Drop, Velocity & Energy at 500 yards

.275 Rigby
Muzzle Vel...........................500 Yards
140gr.....2800 fps...........-54 inches .....1938 fps .....1167 ft lbs
160gr.....2600 fps...........-62 inches .....1841 fps ..... 1203 ft lbs
175gr......2500 fps...........-64 inches .....1881 fps .....1375 ft lbs

7mm Rem Mag
Muzzle Vel. .........................500 Yards
140gr.....3300 fps.........-36 inches .....2342 fps.....1704 ft lbs
160gr.....3000 fps.........-44 inches .....2171 fps......1674 ft lbs
175gr.....2850 fps..........-47 inches .....2181 fps .....1848 ft lbs

7mm STW
Muzzle Vel.............................500 Yards
140gr.....3500 fps...........-31 inches.....2501 fps.....1944 ft lbs
160gr.....3200 fps..........-38 inches.....2335 fps.....1937 ft lbs
175gr.....3050 fps..........-40 inches.....2352 fps.....2149 ft lbs

 

[bruce moulds]

idaram,
it would be interesting to see how far out they would all shoot with a trajectory of +/- 3"".
that is a 6" vital zone.
bruce.

 

[rookhawk]

idaram,
it would be interesting to see how far out they would all shoot with a trajectory of +/- 3"".
that is a 6" vital zone.
bruce.

Most mortals are 1.5-2 MOA, best case.

So at 500 yards, with a perfect gun, the typical shooter can keep it +/- 7” margin of error.

But it matters little, because you’re plugging away at a computer looking for a firing solution whether it’s 64” of drop or 40” of drop, it’s not an easy calculation.

I just hunt closer.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Most mortals are 1.5-2 MOA, best case.

So at 500 yards, with a perfect gun, the typical shooter can keep it +/- 7” margin of error.

But it matters little, because you’re plugging away at a computer looking for a firing solution whether it’s 64” of drop or 40” of drop, it’s not an easy calculation.

I just hunt closer.

I've observed guys at the ranges that were so so shooters now hitting the kill zone on a steel ram at 500 meters using only factory ammo and rifles. Just the quality of ammo and components has made leaps and bounds in the last several years.

Frankly, if 1.5 to 2.0 MOA is the best all one can shoot, probably better off practicing more or staying home.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

We are straying from the topic, but I also need to point out, while doing shooting range officer duty at the 300 meter range I always choose to patch the holes in the target..I noticed all the time that 300 meters are extremely far for the average hunter..if they do not shoot way above a Bluewildebeest target , they shoot way below the target..very few, and I mean very few hunters succeeded in shooting a good grouping at 300 meters...and most of them shoot flat , fast shooting calibers like the 6.5 Creedmoore since this is the new flavor of rifle in South Africa..every one shoots or want to shoot a 6.5 Creedmoore...

 

[Inline6]

My wife killed a nice Nalgai cow with a 6.5CM.

As far as them shooting tight... I have made hits on 8"X8" plates at 1300 yards with a 6.5CM.

The biggest issue I see is a lot of people think they have a "flat shooting" round. For that reason they think I can throw it up and shoot. In reality you should know you system well enough for every distance.

With the technology out today, especially SIG and their BDX system. It will make a better performer for the average Joe that doesn't understand longer range shooting.

 

[bruce moulds]

here are some figures using point blank ranges where trajectories do not exceed plus or minus 3".
7x57 is compared to 7mm stw, as these are more or less at both ends of the spectrum.
280 rem and 7mm weatherby/rem mags are in between.
all figures ar for nosler partition, as it is easy to compare apples with apples, and that bullet shape is relatively representative of an average bullet.

140 gn bullet.
7x57 100 zero + 2.7" 7stw +2.3"
pbr 275 yd 330 yd
max height 133 yd 160 yd

160 gn bullet
7x57 100 zero +2.7" 7stw +2.5"
pbr 259 yd 315 yd
max height 125 yd 152 yd

zeroing a rifle for a pbr is the way to maximize it potential far more so than just zeroing at 200 yds.
as seen here, the point blank ranges of the faster round clearly gives an advantage when aiming dead on and not allowing for drop is the goal.
in the field those differences are significant and noticeable.
others have already mentioned energy and wind deflection.
comparisons.
of course if you are only shooting out to 200 yds, this is irrelevant.
with regards the 6.5 creedmoor, it has become a bit of a con job.
1) it is not a flat shooter, in fact it is on a par with the 6.5 mannlicher.
2)it is not a powerful round refer to 6.5 mannlicher.
3) it is extremely accurate at long range with the right target bullets, but not as accurate as the 6.5x47 lapua.
4)its lack of power and small diameter bullets deliver insufficient killing power at long ranges to be reliably humane.
particularly taking into account that those bullets at longer ranges do not have the speed to give optimum terminal performance.
there are 2 kinds of long range shooting.
one is having a gun with a longer point blank range, and using that as your max.
past that distance you need a special reticule or to wind the elevation nob.
with the atmospheric conditions changing as they do, the special reticule becomes more unreliable as distance increases, and to wind effectively you need a weather station with you.
given that most point blank trajectories are as far as most can shoot well, as far as bullet expansion works properly, and as far as retained energy is ideal, this seems the more appropriate way for ethical hunters to conduct themselves.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

I would like to add.
if you go down the point blank range path consider these things.
if you are shooting a weaker calibre, say 7x57/7mm08, and you need more power, but you point blank requirement is only 250 yds, a bigger 7 might not be as good a solution as a 30/06.
the o6 will have all the trajectory you require, and the power, while having barrel life and recoil of a more friendly kind.
if you need the same power as the 7x57 but at greater distance, a 7mm rem mag will do that job well with little more recoil than a 30/06, as well as having more power than both at closer ranges.
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

If you really want the best of both worlds let me suggest the 25cal by blackjack.

 

[bruce moulds]

which is?
ballistics?
no 25 can deliver killing power at longer ranges that a 7mm can, and a 7mm can't do what a 338 can.
the 25 has less recoil and is more friendly at the shooter end.
but what we have to consider is what is delivered at the target end.
there are no 25 cal bullets with decent b.c. and sectional density and have good terminal performance.
the longer you shoot, the more b.c. is important, to resist wind deflection and to retain energy.
these super cartridges like the 7mmstw need good bullets for the close shots probably more for the long shots in terms of blowing up.
the 25/06 certainly has this level of speed.
dan lilja the barrel maker was a pioneer of long range hunting, and he came to the conclusion that a big cased 338 was min for deer, as if the bullet failed to expand it was still big for the game in hand.
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

Run your number with a G7 of .340. I think you will be pleased. A 25 Creedmoor is pushing at 131 a 3040-3050. Its not your regular 1/4 bore.

 

[IdaRam]

here are some figures using point blank ranges where trajectories do not exceed plus or minus 3".
7x57 is compared to 7mm stw, as these are more or less at both ends of the spectrum.
280 rem and 7mm weatherby/rem mags are in between.
all figures ar for nosler partition, as it is easy to compare apples with apples, and that bullet shape is relatively representative of an average bullet.

140 gn bullet.
7x57 100 zero + 2.7" 7stw +2.3"
pbr 275 yd 330 yd
max height 133 yd 160 yd

160 gn bullet
7x57 100 zero +2.7" 7stw +2.5"
pbr 259 yd 315 yd
max height 125 yd 152 yd

zeroing a rifle for a pbr is the way to maximize it potential far more so than just zeroing at 200 yds.
as seen here, the point blank ranges of the faster round clearly gives an advantage when aiming dead on and not allowing for drop is the goal.
in the field those differences are significant and noticeable.
others have already mentioned energy and wind deflection.
comparisons.
of course if you are only shooting out to 200 yds, this is irrelevant.
with regards the 6.5 creedmoor, it has become a bit of a con job.
1) it is not a flat shooter, in fact it is on a par with the 6.5 mannlicher.
2)it is not a powerful round refer to 6.5 mannlicher.
3) it is extremely accurate at long range with the right target bullets, but not as accurate as the 6.5x47 lapua.
4)its lack of power and small diameter bullets deliver insufficient killing power at long ranges to be reliably humane.
particularly taking into account that those bullets at longer ranges do not have the speed to give optimum terminal performance.
there are 2 kinds of long range shooting.
one is having a gun with a longer point blank range, and using that as your max.
past that distance you need a special reticule or to wind the elevation nob.
with the atmospheric conditions changing as they do, the special reticule becomes more unreliable as distance increases, and to wind effectively you need a weather station with you.
given that most point blank trajectories are as far as most can shoot well, as far as bullet expansion works properly, and as far as retained energy is ideal, this seems the more appropriate way for ethical hunters to conduct themselves.
bruce.

I agree Bruce. Can’t disagree with a thing you said.
I am in particular agreement with your comment “with regards to the 6.5 Creedmoor, it has become a bit of a con job” Of course I am a 6.5x47 Lapua shooter (steel & paper), so...

 

[bruce moulds]

what bullet is that?
given that a 6.5 creedmoor is pushing to get those speeds with that weight bullet, I would suggest high pressures and a long barrel for the 25 version.
out of a 24" barrel, that is not a bad velocity for a 25/06 with 120 gn bullets.
and will it kill as well as say a 7mm at 300 yds.?
based on experience with both a 25/06 vs a 7mag I would suggest no comparison on medium game.
even a 270 win is streets ahead of a 25/06 all the way from zero to 300, and less picky about bullets, and after that the difference gets bigger.
probably not

 

[Inline6]

I agree Bruce. Can’t disagree with a thing you said.
I am in particular agreement with your comment “with regards to the 6.5 Creedmoor, it has become a bit of a con job” Of course I am a 6.5x47 Lapua shooter (steel & paper), so...

So please tell me how a 6.5 CM is a con job? It does everything a 6.5X47 does at a lower pressure. Lapua now makes 6.5 CM brass in SR primer so things are now on an even playing field.

I have been shooting a 6.5CM before most even knew whT it was. With factory ammo I was tagging 5/8" target at 350yards multiple times. It shoots, just because some don't shoot well doesn't mean it is not an accurate round.

 

[bruce moulds]

idaram,
the creedmoor is a wonderful cartridge.
it was designed for palma type shooting (800, 900, and 1000yd) to be better than the 308 at poking holes in paper, which it excels at due to lack of recoil, accuracy, and high b.c. bullets.
it also works well in tactical matches where low recoil and high b.c. allow shooters to see hits on steel or where misses go, and minimize wind deflection.
where it has a small advantage over the x47 is when shooting 140ish gn bullets, as that little bit more case capacity allows enough 4350 to push them.
but all these thing do not a long range hunting cartridge make.
bruce.