Remington closing plant in Ilion NY after 207 years

[BeeMaa]

Amazing how one persons comments can sour an entire thread. Keep yelling at the clouds because I'm out.

All the best RemArms.

 

[rblum]

And all of this has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons on why the company is moving. Stop yelling at the clouds.

They are moving to secure some Georgia incentives at the expense of Georgia taxpayers… When the tax incentives are gone…. Remington folds.

 

[revturbo9967]

Amazing how one persons comments can sour an entire thread. Keep yelling at the clouds because I'm out.

All the best RemArms.

One thing that amazes me, the amount of liberals that float around on this site

 

[375Fox]

Seems adding the non-adjustable Timney trigger idea was more of the same poor management decisions. Nothing has changed. I don't see how a gun manufacturer on the ropes will be able to afford packing up the plant and moving it to Georgia. Maybe Weatherby could make that kind of move but I don't think they were financially on the ropes. I would sell my Remington stock if I had any ... and I don't. They won't last. Damn shame but management is to blame.

The non-adjustable trigger is unfortunately likely a good business decision in today’s world. Remington can’t be sued if it’s not their product or a modification of their product.

 

[375Fox]

Check this out and tell me management isn't at least partly to blame.

How America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery (Published 2019)

When a secretive private equity firm bought Remington, sales were strong and the future bright. A decade later, the company couldn’t escape its debts.

www.nytimes.com

Why did Remington agree to take out the fateful 2012 loan when the company was making money? Of course, they were making money hand over fist during the crazy Obama era gun/ammo hoarding pandemic ... which anyone with half a brain could see was a bubble about to burst. But apparently not the people who ran Remington. Ironic that a gun buying panic promoted by the gun manufacturers turned around to bite one of the biggest players in the arse.

I don’t think anyone would argue management isn’t at least partly or mostly at fault any time a business fails. However, you seem to look to blame anyone who has been more successful in life than yourself at all times while refusing to place any blame elsewhere, both in this case and many other subjects you wrote about. I couldn’t imagine a business choosing to operate in an unfriendly environment when long term prospects are even worse politically. You can’t be successful if you don’t make choices that can lead to that outcome. Bad management and bad politics aren’t a winning combination long term however neither is good management and bad politics when good management and good politics for a gun business is available. You obviously made the choice to run away to liberal Ontario for several reasons. I find it odd you’d criticize a gun company for moving to a more friendly environment.

 

[rblum]

One thing that amazes me, the amount of liberals that float around on this site

Give me a break. Easy to argue if all one does is find bogeymen behind every comment that one disagrees with.

 

[Hogpatrol]

The "ignore" function is your friend.

 

[Doug3006]

It seems to me that the new leadership at Remington is trying to save the company. Moving out of tax heavy and hostile NY to a lower cost friendly state is a good move. Good luck to them. Remington is a part of American history.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

If Remington was sold, and the new owners plan to move it, how does past mismanagement have anything to with the reason they are moving?
Im not arguing that they were poorly managed, I just don’t see how that is relevant in this conversation.

 

[Hogpatrol]

IMHO, Remington started going downhill when DuPont sold them.

 

[jpr9954]

I think we all need to recognize that RemArms LLC is not the Remington of 2012 or even 2019. They are the folks who bought what was left after Vista Outdoor, Ruger, Franklin Armory, and Palmetto State Armory took what they wanted. They didn't even own the Remington trademark as that was bought by Vista Outdoor. They got the Ilion plant, the Remington bolt action rifles, and shotguns.

As to not making hay during the Obama "bubble", Freedom Arms aka Remington had only a fraction of the right product mix. The DPMS Panther Arms and Bushmaster purchases did provide the ARs that people wanted but Remington never had a decent polymer pistol. They went with the 1911 pistol with the purchase of Para-USA. And let's not even mention the fiasco that was the R-51. Competitors such as Ruger and Smith & Wesson had both the AR and the polymer pistols that people wanted.

 

[jpr9954]

If Remington was sold, and the new owners plan to move it, how does past mismanagement have anything to with the reason they are moving?
Im not arguing that they were poorly managed, I just don’t see how that is relevant in this conversation.

Exactly!

 

[Rare Breed]

if possible, these companies should be supported for making the move to a more tax/firearm friendly state.

I’m not a Weatherby fan. But for that reason alone I would like to purchase one made in Wyoming. It took huge cojones to pull stakes from hostile California

I would imagine Remington stayed this long due to nostalgia and the cost of moving or building huge machinery.

Perhaps, instead of trying to survive as a behemoth company. It’s better to re tool as a quality smaller (quality) company in a firearm friendly state.

trust me Lagrange GA welcomed them with no unions and extremely low taxes

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I have a very close relationship with many of the major firearm manufacturers in the northeast. The only reason they haven’t all completely moved away is strictly financial. Beleive me, if they could leave, they would.

Oh, I’m aware. There are one or two that have other reasons as well but it’s definitely something for the future.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I don’t think anyone would argue management isn’t at least partly or mostly at fault any time a business fails. However, you seem to look to blame anyone who has been more successful in life than yourself at all times while refusing to place any blame elsewhere, both in this case and many other subjects you wrote about. I couldn’t imagine a business choosing to operate in an unfriendly environment when long term prospects are even worse politically. You can’t be successful if you don’t make choices that can lead to that outcome. Bad management and bad politics aren’t a winning combination long term however neither is good management and bad politics when good management and good politics for a gun business is available. You obviously made the choice to run away to liberal Ontario for several reasons. I find it odd you’d criticize a gun company for moving to a more friendly environment.

Ontario was Conservative when I moved there. I'm not criticizing Remington for moving. I'm criticizing them for blaming everything and everyone else for their problems that are almost entirely due to past stupid management decisions and horrible quality control. The junk they have dumped on the consumers had nothing to do with the political environment. Politics in NY and trade unions in no way influenced management's fateful stupid decision to take out that gazillion dollar loan in 2012. Anyone could see the black gun and ammo hoarding craziness had to end ... and so would company megaprofits. Remington should just quietly pack up and move. Stop making BS excuses and looking for sympathy. Own their mistakes and move on. Anyway, if Huntsville is any indication, this move will fold up like that one did. Then they're done.

Reading that article I found a LOT to criticize Remington management. The excursion into Huntsville was shameful. A pack of lies from the start. And running the plant with temps? No wonder Remington was producing junk.

 

[Don458]

I grew up in the Mohawk Valley less than half an hour from the plant. My family had friends who worked there. I'm restraining myself because your ignorant comments have me vexed at the moment. At the risk of feeding the trolls, the unions and liberal NYS government are EXACTLY what has closed this plant as stated earlier by @Mtn_Infantry.

Seeing RemArms do well is good for the gun industry and a rising tide raises all boats. Good luck to them in Georgia.

Exactly. Well said. I was just going to comment but I will leave it at that.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Ontario was Conservative when I moved there. I'm not criticizing Remington for moving. I'm criticizing them for blaming everything and everyone else for their problems that are almost entirely due to past stupid management decisions and horrible quality control. The junk they have dumped on the consumers had nothing to do with the political environment. Politics in NY and trade unions in no way influenced management's fateful stupid decision to take out that gazillion dollar loan in 2012. Anyone could see the black gun and ammo hoarding craziness had to end. Remington should just quietly pack up and move. Stop making BS excuses and looking for sympathy. Own their mistakes and move on. Anyway, if Huntsville is any indication, this move will fold up like that one did. Then they're done.

Reading that article I found a LOT to criticize Remington management. The excursion into Huntsville was shameful. A pack of lies from the start. And running the plant with temps? No wonder Remington was producing junk.

If you read the article and really this understood business history then you’d know the current company Remington Arms and their management is in no way affiliated with anything Remington (prior to 2020) or Freedom Group. You’re failing to differentiate between the Remington you’ve known for the last 60+ years.

Im going to overly simply it and put it in an idiots guide version (Im missing a lot of details and not 100%); you have Remington Firearms (founded in 1816) this morphed into Remington Arms Company which went through numerous ownership changes to include DuPont and included the acquisition of an ammo company. In 2007 Remington Arms Company was purchased by a Private Equity Group (Cerberus) and eventually became Freedom Group. Cerberus purchased Remington when they were already operating at a loss and not turning a profit. Following this Freedom Group purchased numerous other companies to include Marlin, AAC, Bushmaster, DPMS, etc. This is where you get JM Stamped Marlins, and RemLins from if you’re a Marlin collector. In 2014/2015 Freedom Group was renamed Remington Outdoor Group. Following that company’s and their management’s bankruptcy filing in 2020 (a lot of which was influenced by liberal states and their courts) their holdings (Remington, Marlin, Barnes, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc) were divided 7 ways by the courts. A contributing factor to the bankruptcy was the liberal policies of states like New York and Connecticut (especially following Sandy Hook). This wasn’t the only issue though. During the bankruptcy proceedings the current ownership bought the Ilion, NY plant, its machinery, and the IP (Model 700, 870, etc) for Remington Firearms. They ultimately created Rem Arms. That company doesn’t even own the name Remington or its Trademark (both are now owned by Vista Outdoor following the bankruptcy proceedings). Hence why they’re operating as Rem Arms LLC. The current ownership/management isn’t making this decision because of any past indiscretions. This is based 100% on today and what’s best financially for Rem Arms (different than Remington Arms). Rem Arms is in a major way impacted by the political policies and ideologies of where they’re manufacturing which is a factor in the current company and managements decision to relocate. The only thing Rem Arms can attribute to poor decision making of the past Remington Arms Company is their ability to buy the IP for the Firearms Part of the business and the factories which had been making those firearms.

Hopefully this breakdown helped you better understand the Remington you knew in the 1960’s isn’t the same Remington you knew in 2001, which wasn’t the same Remington of 2007, which dissolved in 2020.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Because blaming the govt and unions is the excuse the CEO throws out to the press, we are supposed to believe it? Reality is they make poor products in a highly competitive market. He's not going to admit to that. Stock price would fall off the edge of the earth overnight if he did.

Seems adding the non-adjustable Timney trigger idea was more of the same poor management decisions. Nothing has changed. I don't see how a gun manufacturer on the ropes will be able to afford packing up the plant and moving it to Georgia. Maybe Weatherby could make that kind of move but I don't think they were financially on the ropes. I would sell my Remington stock if I had any ... and I don't. They won't last. Damn shame but management is to blame.

You don’t have any Remington stock to sell because that company went bankrupt no longer exists.

 

[revturbo9967]

If you read the article and really this understood business history then you’d know the current company Remington Arms and their management is in no way affiliated with anything Remington (prior to 2020) or Freedom Group. You’re failing to differentiate between the Remington you’ve known for the last 60+ years.

Im going to overly simply it and put it in an idiots guide version (Im missing a lot of details and not 100%); you have Remington Firearms (founded in 1816) this morphed into Remington Arms Company which went through numerous ownership changes to include DuPont and included the acquisition of an ammo company. In 2007 Remington Arms Company was purchased by a Private Equity Group (Cerberus) and eventually became Freedom Group. Cerberus purchased Remington when they were already operating at a loss and not turning a profit. Following this Freedom Group purchased numerous other companies to include Marlin, AAC, Bushmaster, DPMS, etc. This is where you get JM Stamped Marlins, and RemLins from if you’re a Marlin collector. In 2014/2015 Freedom Group was renamed Remington Outdoor Group. Following that company’s and their management’s bankruptcy filing in 2020 (a lot of which was influenced by liberal states and their courts) their holdings (Remington, Marlin, Barnes, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc) were divided 7 ways by the courts. A contributing factor to the bankruptcy was the liberal policies of states like New York and Connecticut (especially following Sandy Hook). This wasn’t the only issue though. During the bankruptcy proceedings the current ownership bought the Ilion, NY plant, its machinery, and the IP (Model 700, 870, etc) for Remington Firearms. They ultimately created Rem Arms. That company doesn’t even own the name Remington or its Trademark (both are now owned by Vista Outdoor following the bankruptcy proceedings). Hence why they’re operating as Rem Arms LLC. The current ownership/management isn’t making this decision because of any past indiscretions. This is based 100% on today and what’s best financially for Rem Arms (different than Remington Arms). Rem Arms is in a major way impacted by the political policies and ideologies of where they’re manufacturing which is a factor in the current company and managements decision to relocate. The only thing Rem Arms can attribute to poor decision making of the past Remington Arms Company is their ability to buy the IP for the Firearms Part of the business and the factories which had been making those firearms.

Hopefully this breakdown helped you better understand the Remington you knew in the 1960’s isn’t the same Remington you knew in 2001, which wasn’t the same Remington of 2007, which dissolved in 2020.

To circle back around to the reason why this is even a debate, moving is best interest for many reasons. Living an hour from Sandy Hook, I have seen some terrible liberal policies run rampant in regards to firearms. Neighboring states are adapting the same policies. To operate as an OEM manufacturer, you are under the microscope by big government, as well as trying to be profitable in very high tax environments, also a bi product of liberal policies. If New York was a gun friendly state, with low taxes, they would not move as there would be no need or reason to.

Most do not understand how strict the gun laws are here vs the rest of the country. Example-you need a permit to buy ammunition.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

To circle back around to the reason why this is even a debate, moving is best interest for many reasons. Living an hour from Sandy Hook, I have seen some terrible liberal policies run rampant in regards to firearms. Neighboring states are adapting the same policies. To operate as an OEM manufacturer, you are under the microscope by big government, as well as trying to be profitable in very high tax environments, also a bi product of liberal policies. If New York was a gun friendly state, with low taxes, they would not move as there would be no need or reason to.

Most do not understand how strict the gun laws are here vs the rest of the country. Example-you need a permit to buy ammunition.

In Ontario shooters need a firearm possession license to buy ammo. I don't have a problem with that. Why should someone be able to legally buy ammo if he can't legally own a firearm? Anyone with a license is certified not a felon or wife beater and has passed the test to know how to safely use a firearm. Makes sense to me. Plus with my firearms license I can mail order a gun without dealing with nonsense FFL middlemen.