Question for long-time alaskans

[Alaska Luke]

A couple times I had the chance to shoot at a charging bear target with various guns. I got way more hits with a Glock 10mm then a 44 mag. I loved my 44 but it just didn't seem as effective so I sold it. A Glock 10mm or even a 9mm with appropriate ammo beats a big gun you leave at home.
I know PHs have used doubles and big bolt guns. Respectfully I don't care. A couple from CA are not at a PH's skill level. And they aren't shooting cape buffalo. It's not a apples to apples comparison. Bears are tough but not bullet proof. And there are lots of examples in the DLP (defense of life and property) shootings of bears that were hit and then broke off the attack even if they were not instantly killed. So I go back to user friendly over size.
Now that I think about it, a 350 Legend or .400 Legend in an AR might be a good compromise. They could shoot a 223 for practice and have a bigger AR for a house gun. Shotguns are effective (I tried those on a charging target to) but I hope they don't try it without help and get into the habit of flinching. The nice thing is they are cheaper to.
How about a 20 Guage with slugs? Other ideas would be a lever action 308 (Henry or Browning) that would be a decent hunting rifle too. Lever actions in .44, 30-30 and 45-70 have been mentioned. I think anything people here say is "enough " for a bear would kick pretty hard and an amateur wouldn't do enough practice.
I use a .375 Ruger personally but I'm not suggesting that.

 

[Mully]

I've always wondered about the 12 gauge suggestions for bear defense. I have zero bear experience, but have shot many whitetail deer with different 20 and 12 gauge slugs. Hit in the boiler room deer almost always run multiple yards, and sometimes 50+ yards before piling up. I'm sure a hard slug would help, and I don't continue dumping lead in deer, so that may make a difference. I would want the largest caliber rifle I could accurately shoot with heavy for caliber premium bonded or A-Frame/Partition style bullets over a shotgun. Anyone have real world experience with shotguns on bear? I find this subject very interesting!

 

[freefall]

I shot one black bear broadside at 6 yds with a 12 ga and a Foster style slug. It clipped the spine and completely penetrated..
Cousin Marty saw one shot from tailgate to front of pickup bed with a 12 ga and Foster styles, the guy put 5 rounds into it's chest and none penetrated to the vitals, they all flattened out in the chest musculature. They finished it with a handgun.
For those of you that know the country, this happened up by the Valdez Creek mine off the Denali Highway.

 

[Alaska Luke]

I never shot a bear with slugs but I was told in bear guard class that deer slugs were very soft. Not really bear killing material. Might explain that performance. Brenneke slugs seem to have a good reputation but I never used them on anything.
I hunted off Valdez Creek Road a time or two. Fun area.

 

[freefall]

I now have Brennekes in my shotgun, but I too have never shot anything with them. I too have heard they are far superior. Superior enough that I would hesitate to loose one at a moose now that I live in civilization. As previously stated, I now have a Marlin in .44 mag for yard problems, I think it's less likely to penetrate completely. It also shoots with better precision.

 

[Mully]

I have shot deer with Brennekes, but not sure if they were the harder ones. I never thought about not wanting complete penetration like you are saying freefall.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

As I stated my employer provides an 870 and Brenneke slugs. I know of two bear (browns) related incidents related to work. Both were dropped and a crisis averted. Our amourer is a lifelong Alaskan and has complete faith in the set up. I do as well. I hope I never have to test that faith.

 

[roklok]

We live an hour out of Fairbanks, remote and off-grid. We keep a bolt action 30-06 and a bolt action 17 HMR handy and ready to go. 30-06 is for bears, wolves, moose, .17 is for foxes and smaller critters. For those commenting that defensive use cant be at longer range, I call BS. We can have 100+ yard shots off the front porch, and we had a wolf come in this spring when our dog was in heat. If our dogs or livestock was threatened, I would absolutely defend them from a distance. If you don't care for bolt actions, it would be hard to go wrong with an M1A or Garand.

 

[Jeff 907]

I keep an 835 with federal premium slugs at the back door.

With recoil being subjective it’d be hard to pinpoint a good round for someone.

Someone mentioned the old Ruger carbine .44. I will say that that would be my first choice for someone recoils sensitive. It’s very manageable with typical ammo and when you get to the heaviest loads you may start to feel it. Last time it rattled the barrel band off with the heavy buffalo bores.

 

[akrifleman]

The guys that accompany the scientists, surveyors, and slope people are all issued shotguns. They tend to work, even when the brain is overloaded. Handguns take a lot more practice. I routinely see people at training events who have poor hit percentages at even 15yds. Unless you practice a good bit with them, they tend to be a very perishable skill. I carry one, but I practice a great deal, and have hunted with it extensively. The carbine reliability issues would concern me. They are well documented to have a good list of common issues, particularly when fired rapidly. I can't recall anyone being disappointed with a Marlin 1895. Big heavy bullets like slugs and .40 caliber seem to have the best track records. Do not use personal defense ammo, as they will not penetrate reliably. Moose and caribou do not have thick hides, bears do. Proper ammo type is probably more important than caliber.

 

[akrifleman]

Freefall, I have lived in Alaska over 30 years. I have taught both bear protection classes and self-defense classes. For bear protection, I have taught with Remington 870s and .357 4-inch barrel Ruger GP100s and S&W 4-inch barrel 686s. I recommend people new to shooting or wilderness protection start there. I recommend Buffalo Bore for the revolvers, with extra loaded speedloaders. Brenneke slugs are fine for the shotgun and seem to be what agencies here provide.

Before providing your niece and her husband with any firearm, if they are not competent in shooting and do not understand how to operate under extreme stress, please sign them up for a bear protection class. What they learn will serve them well for bear protection and defense against a moose. They will also learn to avoid these situations as much as possible.

By taking the class, which should provide the firearms, your niece and her husband will be better able to choose what they are comfortable shooting.

If they are worried about their child or dog being attacked by a bear or moose on their property (a valid concern), they should consider that they, themselves, carry on their property. Most people don't drag around a long gun at home. It is much easier to have a .357 magnum or .44 magnum revolver with a barrel length that they can shoot accurately. That means they can shoot it with one hand if need be.

I switched to Kydex chest holsters. I also recommend Diamond D in Wasilla for leather. They make excellent and well-tested leather chest harnesses, and I have one. I use 40-Below Kydex in Fairbanks for my Kydex chest rig (and used them for students when teaching) because it has numerous points of adjustment that are quicker and easier to make than with leather straps.

Let us know what you and they decide to do and what firearms they get.

Laura

GhostTown Leather is another option, as they custom build to fit. Diamond D wouldn't make me one for my 475 Linebaugh w/5 1/2 barrel, and they won't do thumb breaks or anything but that leather snap over strap. Also, they made the belt loop to fit my belt tightly, and it doesn't tear. Finally, they also custom built me a cartridge belt that fit 475.

 

[TigerTony35whelen]

As a Alaskan traveler pH, I would recommend an AR upper in 50 Beowulf uses standard 20 and 30 round AR mag.s you can put it on any AR platform, that way you can shoot 556/76.2 x 39/anything you can think of on an AR 15 style platform 6.5 Grendel good luck be safe have fun God bless cheers, Tony

 

[akrifleman]

As a Alaskan traveler pH, I would recommend an AR upper in 50 Beowulf uses standard 20 and 30 round AR mag.s you can put it on any AR platform, that way you can shoot 556/76.2 x 39/anything you can think of on an AR 15 style platform 6.5 Grendel good luck be safe have fun God bless cheers, Tony

In that direction, I've only heard good things about the 338 Fed in an AR10. I wish they offered the SFAR in more calibers.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm really questioning some of the advice being offered here. We've got a younger couple who are unfamiliar with firearms and some of the suggestions here involve guns that require experience. For example, one look at an AR by somebody new to guns and they're going to be overwhelmed by the complex look of it. Since they seem to know little about guns, odds are good it isn't something they are very interested in learning much about which means they will be unpracticed. What they really need is something they can learn to use easily and something that is easy to remember how to use. The double action revolver is awesome for this reason, they literally just need to pull the trigger, and if it doesn't fire, then keep pulling it until it does. If only there were more revolving rifles. A pump action shotgun is almost as easy to operate. A lever or bolt action are not far behind intuitively. The more safeties, levers, bolts, switches, etc., the lower the odds are that they operate it successfully when the time comes. They need a combination of simplicity and adequate energy.

 

[akrifleman]

I'm really questioning some of the advice being offered here. We've got a younger couple who are unfamiliar with firearms and some of the suggestions here involve guns that require experience. For example, one look at an AR by somebody new to guns and they're going to be overwhelmed by the complex look of it. Since they seem to know little about guns, odds are good it isn't something they are very interested in learning much about which means they will be unpracticed. What they really need is something they can learn to use easily and something that is easy to remember how to use. The double action revolver is awesome for this reason, they literally just need to pull the trigger, and if it doesn't fire, then keep pulling it until it does. If only there were more revolving rifles. A pump action shotgun is almost as easy to operate. A lever or bolt action are not far behind intuitively. The more safeties, levers, bolts, switches, etc., the lower the odds are that they operate it successfully when the time comes. They need a combination of simplicity and adequate energy.

ARs are very easy to use. Took my pre-teen nieces with no firearms experience 10 minutes to learn to use them and clear intentional jams. And the military takes every sort and they all manage to learn without any particular issue. All require training. They'd be better off seeing somebody like Laura to teach them how, than be left to their own devices. Furthermore, its hard to be more recoil friendly than an AR.

The double action revolver is a complete contradiction from your exact statement about experience. All handguns require much more practice for proficiency. Missing 6 times doesn't help.

Furthermore, double actions DO fail. Both timing issues and more often, bullets that unseat from crimps bind the revolver and keep it from shooting. The myth that a double action never jams is just that.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A Winchester Model 1892 in .44-40 Winchester is a very viable option.

Also, I recommend loading the shotgun with Remington Express Magnum 3" 10 Pellet OOO Buck.

I used to issue my forest rangers with the Chinese Type 56 in 7.62x39mm. This is a clone of the old Soviet SKS. The caliber is very efficient for people. But don't even think of using it on moose or bears.

 

[HankBuck]

I apologize for laughing...but I bet I have heard something similar a dozen times in the past 2 months.
When I think of brutal recoil, .45-70 is not what I think of. I've got 8 or 9 I (I forget
) .45-70s. The only time one has seemed brutal was when I fired 10 heavy load rounds in a short time from an 1886 Browning at an upward angle. Right on that shoulder knot
The right .45-70 with heavy loads and the right bullet would be good for rogue bear or moose, but so would a 12 gauge with 00 buck or slugs. Although I might not us 00 if I was worried about hitting my pets or kids. In a high-adrenaline moment, I doubt anyone would notice the recoil on 1 or 2 shots from either.

Now, one day, I sighted in a .35 Whelen, then a .405 Winchester, then a .325 WSM. I was done after that. Sold the .325 WSM after what was probably not its fault

But, it is all in the individual opinion of the shooter. On paper, the recoil energy of those 3 I mention are all at or less the recoil energy of heavy .45-70 loads, but it never seems that way to me. To be fair, I seldom shoot .45-70 from the bench, which plays a big factor in felt recoil.

Vlwtx348, treat yourself to some .45-70 loads from Buffalo Bore (I recommend the 350 grain @2150 fps and 3591 FPE)….they will get your attention and especially in the relatively light Marlin 1895. A fine round for DG under 200 yrds, the hardcast bullet penetrates deeply and the marlin gives your 4 + 1 rounds unlikely to jam. The 1895 also has several safety features: required to cock the hammer and also a cross bolt safety (which can either be left “off” at all times (rely on cocking hammer) or “on” and push in only when about to fire.

 

[HankBuck]

ARs are very easy to use. Took my pre-teen nieces with no firearms experience 10 minutes to learn to use them and clear intentional jams. And the military takes every sort and they all manage to learn without any particular issue. All require training. They'd be better off seeing somebody like Laura to teach them how, than be left to their own devices. Furthermore, its hard to be more recoil friendly than an AR.

The double action revolver is a complete contradiction from your exact statement about experience. All handguns require much more practice for proficiency. Missing 6 times doesn't help.

Furthermore, double actions DO fail. Both timing issues and more often, bullets that unseat from crimps bind the revolver and keep it from shooting. The myth that a double action never jams is just that.

AKrifleman, every firearm is easy to operate “after proper training” and while you and I see the ease of an AR - new shooters might need more training with them then a revolver or pump & lever rifles….just a thought. I wouldnt rule out a double action revolver - they are simple, easy to load & learn how to shoot and “rarely jam” - much less on average then a semi auto and especially in bad weather conditions (cold/snow/dirt/dust). The power of the revolver can be matched to a shooters tolerance and a .357 is adequate for Bear defense (NOT Bear hunting, Not moose hunting) we are talking defense - deter or turn the attack. Handguns carry easy - rifles are great from a house or cabin/camp. Caliber is the least important and there is an excellent study that covered 70+ actual Bear attacks that were defended over a 20 year period — even 9mm was effective 80% and .44 mag 100%. I will try to google the name, title of the study but it was eye opening,,,,,even .22 LR was effective in several cases.

 

[vlwtx348]

Vlwtx348, treat yourself to some .45-70 loads from Buffalo Bore (I recommend the 350 grain @2150 fps and 3591 FPE)….they will get your attention and especially in the relatively light Marlin 1895. A fine round for DG under 200 yrds, the hardcast bullet penetrates deeply and the marlin gives your 4 + 1 rounds unlikely to jam. The 1895 also has several safety features: required to cock the hammer and also a cross bolt safety (which can either be left “off” at all times (rely on cocking hammer) or “on” and push in only when about to fire.

I've shot Buffalo Bore ammo. It's overpriced. The 10 in quick succession were that level or higher. Not often a person needs to shoot that many +P+ rounds in a short time.
.45-70 is the lightest 458 caliber I own.
Now 458 Lott? That's a beast. Didn't take me 10 rounds to decide I didn't need that rifle anymore...

 

[Longwalker]

I have a summer place in remote Northern BC, just a hop from Alaska. What I've settled on for my camp gun suits me just fine.
Rossi M92 Stainless ( Trapper 16" barrel) .44 magnum loaded with HSM 305gr. hard cast "bear loads". Handy, so it's easy to pack around, "powerful enough" for the kind of defensive purposes I have encountered, ( numerous black bears, some moose, no grizzlies yet )
But my wife kinda hates it. She's not a gun person. She had an accidental discharge when I was trying to train her how to lower the hammer after loading and cocking the rifle but deciding not to fire. And she hated the recoil. She won't touch a rifle or shotgun with exposed hammers now. Exposed hammers are't a problem for experienced shooters, but I've seen beginners have problems with exposed hammers so many times as an instructor in my firearm safety classes.
So I bought her a rifle she can handle easily and confidently, even if it's a little underpowered. A CZ 527 Carbine, 7.62x39. I've only shot one deer with it so far. Not much of a test compared to a bear, but it gave me some confidence that my wife wouldn't be shooting a peashooter.
It's very reliable ( even has controlled round feed ), it's easy and intuitive to use, a loaded 5 shot magazine is easy to insert, doesn't have intimidating recoil, easier to shoot more accurately than a handgun, and is way better than nothing.