Pulling front or back trigger first

[Lyleedward]

Key words re double rifle from HH is “in a good quality rifle “.

I cannot conceive of a situation when shooting as to why anyone would shoot rear trigger first in a properly configured DR.

The whole idea is to shoot the right barrel first and slide back onto the rear trigger quickly . The stock is designed that way.

Crazy to do it otherwise “in a good quality rifle “ !

Wen guiding I may have to shoot either a solid or soft depending on situation so both barrels need to be an option.

 

[PCC600]

Wen guiding I may have to shoot either a solid or soft depending on situation so both barrels need to be an option.

A good point regarding soft and solids . I was referencing shooters pulling the rear trigger because they are worried about a double discharge .

 

[RayAtkinson]

HorseFeathers On a properly regulated double you can pull the triggers either way. the sequence is the same and Ive tested many for group over the years. A double will only shoot as well as the "worst" barrel, confuses the average human...
The old adage that doubles are regulated to pull the front trigger "first" is the earliest sales pitch in the gun world along with a sack full of witchcraft!!

 

[franzfmdavis]

HorseFeathers yOU PULL THE REAR TRIGGER TO SAVE A DOUBLING AND A FINGER OF TWO...hOW THEY WERE REGULATED IS AN OLD WIVES TALE GOING BACK MANY YEARS..CALL BUTCH SEARCY OR ??? iF YOU GROUP ANY DOUBLE FOR GROUPS IT WILL SHOOT THE SAME EITHER WAY FOR THAT MATTER..

When I read this comment, I could hear the voice of Colonel Potter

 

[fourfive8]

. Thank goodness I didn’t grow up “learning” which trigger was PROPER to pull first! The only shooting training or advice I ever had that accounted for anything was by an old crank rifle instructor in the Army who knew what the hell he was talking about and knew how to teach and likewise by an experienced senior LE Academy handgun instructor.

Also, that rifle instruction was over 50 years ago and I credit it with being able to shoot well off hand and from sticks.

 

[WarEagle03]

Gents,

I am new to the forum so please excuse the fact that I've not poured through the threads to uncover the multitude of times this has probably been discussed, but here goes:

I have a very lightly used Merkel 140-2 in 375 H&H. I took it to the range two days ago and loaded up for my inaugural first two shots. I was immediately surprised how bad it kicked. Granted I have a 416 Rigby I've got hand loads for that will rattle your teeth, but this seemed just as bad or worse. I opened the breech and both cartridges had fired. No wonder. I was a bit concerned but I believe I may have shot the rear trigger first since I had on shooting gloves... After, I decided to load singles from either side for a few rounds. I pulled opposing triggers to see if I could get it to discharge the wrong barrel and it didn't seem to. Very well regulated in fact shooting singles.

Back to two shells. Loaded up, doubled again. I can confirm I pulled back trigger first on that one. I shoot SXS shotguns a lot on bird hunts and was taught to pull back to front. Only reading g in these forums that doesn't seem to apply to dbl rifles.

Should it really matter??? I'm not that big of a glutton for punishment, so I cleaned the rifle and put it away for the day. I will likely take it back out next weekend. My plan is to use one full load and one primer only load and try either barrels and see if the doubling is in fact the pull order... Any other thoughts?

Are the triggers sticky from non use for years? Is there some internal cleaner that may solve anything like that before I send it off to someone? I'm open to thoughts on troubleshooting... Also would love a recommendation on someone who works on Merkels if I have to go that route. I realize the Alabama location is closed now? Bummer.

There has to be others that have had to fix this issue... Thanks all.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Gents,

I am new to the forum so please excuse the fact that I've not poured through the threads to uncover the multitude of times this has probably been discussed, but here goes:

I have a very lightly used Merkel 140-2 in 375 H&H. I took it to the range two days ago and loaded up for my inaugural first two shots. I was immediately surprised how bad it kicked. Granted I have a 416 Rigby I've got hand loads for that will rattle your teeth, but this seemed just as bad or worse. I opened the breech and both cartridges had fired. No wonder. I was a bit concerned but I believe I may have shot the rear trigger first since I had on shooting gloves... After, I decided to load singles from either side for a few rounds. I pulled opposing triggers to see if I could get it to discharge the wrong barrel and it didn't seem to. Very well regulated in fact shooting singles.

Back to two shells. Loaded up, doubled again. I can confirm I pulled back trigger first on that one. I shoot SXS shotguns a lot on bird hunts and was taught to pull back to front. Only reading g in these forums that doesn't seem to apply to dbl rifles.

Should it really matter??? I'm not that big of a glutton for punishment, so I cleaned the rifle and put it away for the day. I will likely take it back out next weekend. My plan is to use one full load and one primer only load and try either barrels and see if the doubling is in fact the pull order... Any other thoughts?

Are the triggers sticky from non use for years? Is there some internal cleaner that may solve anything like that before I send it off to someone? I'm open to thoughts on troubleshooting... Also would love a recommendation on someone who works on Merkels if I have to go that route. I realize the Alabama location is closed now? Bummer.

There has to be others that have had to fix this issue... Thanks all.

Fortunately, there is a fix and it has been discussed in a few different posts on this form. If you reach out to @Rare Breed he can explain it all to you in greater detail and where he sent it for repair: jj perdeau

You won’t feel too bad if you read through the other forum posts about Merkel 141 as this was a common issue.

 

[Boone66]

The guns are built front trigger first, as can be shown by the trigger lay out. Right handed guns have the front trigger more to the left, the rear trigger spur is more to the right. A left handed built double the trigger spurs are set up the opposite way. How you chose to use each barrel is up to the individual and situation. The key is to practice practice practice, even using sub caliber inserts if possible.

 

[Tanks]

The guns are built front trigger first, as can be shown by the trigger lay out. Right handed guns have the front trigger more to the left, the rear trigger spur is more to the right. A left handed built double the trigger spurs are set up the opposite way. How you chose to use each barrel is up to the individual and situation. The key is to practice practice practice, even using sub caliber inserts if possible.

You have it a$$ backwards. Front trigger is more to the right of the back trigger on the right-handed guns and more to the left on the left-handed guns. At least they are that way on the 3 left-handed doubles I own and the Rigby I ordered is coming that way as well.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Gents,

I am new to the forum so please excuse the fact that I've not poured through the threads to uncover the multitude of times this has probably been discussed, but here goes:

I have a very lightly used Merkel 140-2 in 375 H&H. I took it to the range two days ago and loaded up for my inaugural first two shots. I was immediately surprised how bad it kicked. Granted I have a 416 Rigby I've got hand loads for that will rattle your teeth, but this seemed just as bad or worse. I opened the breech and both cartridges had fired. No wonder. I was a bit concerned but I believe I may have shot the rear trigger first since I had on shooting gloves... After, I decided to load singles from either side for a few rounds. I pulled opposing triggers to see if I could get it to discharge the wrong barrel and it didn't seem to. Very well regulated in fact shooting singles.

Back to two shells. Loaded up, doubled again. I can confirm I pulled back trigger first on that one. I shoot SXS shotguns a lot on bird hunts and was taught to pull back to front. Only reading g in these forums that doesn't seem to apply to dbl rifles.

Should it really matter??? I'm not that big of a glutton for punishment, so I cleaned the rifle and put it away for the day. I will likely take it back out next weekend. My plan is to use one full load and one primer only load and try either barrels and see if the doubling is in fact the pull order... Any other thoughts?

Are the triggers sticky from non use for years? Is there some internal cleaner that may solve anything like that before I send it off to someone? I'm open to thoughts on troubleshooting... Also would love a recommendation on someone who works on Merkels if I have to go that route. I realize the Alabama location is closed now? Bummer.

There has to be others that have had to fix this issue... Thanks all.

I don't really understand the he logic of pulling the rear trigger first, especially on ads shotguns. The front trigger, right barrel is the more open choke. Rising birds are closer in the uplands. Pass shooting ducks, doves, pigeons, etc. you wait for them to get as close as possible before shooting. In either case the advantage is to shoot the more open choke (front trigger) first. Why would you have been taught to pull the rear trigger first?

 

[WarEagle03]

Thanks for the replies. I search out the article you guys mentioned, and send Rare Breed a line as well.

As far as being taught rear to front trigger... Lol. Nobody said the people who taught me know anything either. Some of the people who taught me to hunt don't know the right end of a hammer... but somehow they are pretty decent outdoorsmen. If anything I have learned in life, the ones who say they know everything rarely ever do. I am just glad there are sites like this where I can ask dumb questions...

 

[Lyleedward]

HorseFeathers On a properly regulated double you can pull the triggers either way. the sequence is the same and Ive tested many for group over the years. A double will only shoot as well as the "worst" barrel, confuses the average human...
The old adage that doubles are regulated to pull the front trigger "first" is the earliest sales pitch in the gun world along with a sack full of witchcraft!!

Hi Ray this is the reply I got from Merkel.
Good day Sir,

The part itself is the wrong one to prevent the right barrel from doubling.

However, it is as follows: The weapon is built so that the right barrel is always fired first.
This is due to both doubling (rear trigger which fires the left barrel is lighter than front trigger which fires the right barrel) and the thermics of the barrels.
There is no way to guarantee that this problem will not occur if you fire the left barrel first. This is also stated in our operating manual on page 7, how to use this rifle properly.

Mialls Gunshop can only make sure, that the left barrel is not letting of the shot when firing the right barrel first and not the opposite way.
Therefore, we have send the correct parts.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Ihr Merkel-Team/Your Merkel-Team

******************************************************
Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH
Schützenstrasse 26
98527 Suhl

Telefon: +49 (0) 3681/854-0
Telefax: +49 (0) 3681/854-203
mail to: info@merkel-waffen.de

Startseite | Merkel

Die Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH ist der letzte große Jagdgewehrhersteller der traditionsreichen Waffenstadt Suhl und verbindet Suhler Traditionen mit modernster Technologie.

www.merkel-die-jagd.de

******************************************************
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Sitz: 98527 Suhl
Amtsgericht: Jena, HRB 302.913
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VK

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Lyle Sirett <lylejkd@icloud.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 8. Juli 2024 01:05
An: Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH <info@merkel-waffen.de>
Cc: colin@thebarn.net.au; Mialls. Merkel <contact@mialls.com.au>
Betreff: Re: Anfrage Merkel-Kontaktformular EN: "500ne ae 140" Waffennummer: "A750072"

Hello this is an update on my 500ne. Mialls gun shop said it is not the correct part to stop the double firing of this gun. It has been over 18 months now without this gun. I am now using another double for my guiding work . I am very tired of this problem I wont wait any longer and request a refund of purchase price for the gun thank you. This rifle double fired on a charging buffalo while I was guiding a client. Someone could have been killed. I do not think this problem will be rectified to restore my confidence in the firearm.
Lyle sirett.
Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Lyleedward]

Thanks for the replies. I search out the article you guys mentioned, and send Rare Breed a line as well.

As far as being taught rear to front trigger... Lol. Nobody said the people who taught me know anything either. Some of the people who taught me to hunt don't know the right end of a hammer... but somehow they are pretty decent outdoorsmen. If anything I have learned in life, the ones who say they know everything rarely ever do. I am just glad there are sites like this where I can ask dumb questions...

Hi my 500 double as well. Merkel is not being very helpful. I will copy and paste there last reply.
Good day Sir,

The part itself is the wrong one to prevent the right barrel from doubling.

However, it is as follows: The weapon is built so that the right barrel is always fired first.
This is due to both doubling (rear trigger which fires the left barrel is lighter than front trigger which fires the right barrel) and the thermics of the barrels.
There is no way to guarantee that this problem will not occur if you fire the left barrel first. This is also stated in our operating manual on page 7, how to use this rifle properly.

Mialls Gunshop can only make sure, that the left barrel is not letting of the shot when firing the right barrel first and not the opposite way.
Therefore, we have send the correct parts.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Ihr Merkel-Team/Your Merkel-Team

******************************************************
Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH
Schützenstrasse 26
98527 Suhl

Telefon: +49 (0) 3681/854-0
Telefax: +49 (0) 3681/854-203
mail to: info@merkel-waffen.de

Startseite | Merkel

Die Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH ist der letzte große Jagdgewehrhersteller der traditionsreichen Waffenstadt Suhl und verbindet Suhler Traditionen mit modernster Technologie.

www.merkel-die-jagd.de

******************************************************
Geschäftsführer: Olaf Sauer
Sitz: 98527 Suhl
Amtsgericht: Jena, HRB 302.913
******************************************************
Diese E-Mail enthält vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschützte Informationen. Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. Das unerlaubte Kopieren, sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist nicht gestattet.
This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
VK

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Lyle Sirett <lylejkd@icloud.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 8. Juli 2024 01:05
An: Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH <info@merkel-waffen.de>
Cc: colin@thebarn.net.au; Mialls. Merkel <contact@mialls.com.au>
Betreff: Re: Anfrage Merkel-Kontaktformular EN: "500ne ae 140" Waffennummer: "A750072"

Hello this is an update on my 500ne. Mialls gun shop said it is not the correct part to stop the double firing of this gun. It has been over 18 months now without this gun. I am now using another double for my guiding work . I am very tired of this problem I wont wait any longer and request a refund of purchase price for the gun thank you. This rifle double fired on a charging buffalo while I was guiding a client. Someone could have been killed. I do not think this problem will be rectified to restore my confidence in the firearm.
Lyle sirett.
Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhone

 

[WarEagle03]

The guns are built front trigger first, as can be shown by the trigger lay out. Right handed guns have the front trigger more to the left, the rear trigger spur is more to the right. A left handed built double the trigger spurs are set up the opposite way. How you chose to use each barrel is up to the individual and situation. The key is to practice practice practice, even using sub caliber inserts if possible.

I am very interested in the "sub caliber inserts" you mentioned. I'm assuming these would be custom products. You have any info on mfgrs that make them that are worth the money/time?

 

[Altitude sickness]

Hi my 500 double as well. Merkel is not being very helpful. I will copy and paste there last reply.
Good day Sir,

The part itself is the wrong one to prevent the right barrel from doubling.

However, it is as follows: The weapon is built so that the right barrel is always fired first.
This is due to both doubling (rear trigger which fires the left barrel is lighter than front trigger which fires the right barrel) and the thermics of the barrels.
There is no way to guarantee that this problem will not occur if you fire the left barrel first. This is also stated in our operating manual on page 7, how to use this rifle properly.

Mialls Gunshop can only make sure, that the left barrel is not letting of the shot when firing the right barrel first and not the opposite way.
Therefore, we have send the correct parts.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Ihr Merkel-Team/Your Merkel-Team

******************************************************
Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH
Schützenstrasse 26
98527 Suhl

Telefon: +49 (0) 3681/854-0
Telefax: +49 (0) 3681/854-203
mail to: info@merkel-waffen.de

Startseite | Merkel

Die Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH ist der letzte große Jagdgewehrhersteller der traditionsreichen Waffenstadt Suhl und verbindet Suhler Traditionen mit modernster Technologie.

www.merkel-die-jagd.de

******************************************************
Geschäftsführer: Olaf Sauer
Sitz: 98527 Suhl
Amtsgericht: Jena, HRB 302.913
******************************************************
Diese E-Mail enthält vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschützte Informationen. Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese Mail. Das unerlaubte Kopieren, sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser Mail ist nicht gestattet.
This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
VK

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Lyle Sirett <lylejkd@icloud.com>
Gesendet: Montag, 8. Juli 2024 01:05
An: Merkel Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH <info@merkel-waffen.de>
Cc: colin@thebarn.net.au; Mialls. Merkel <contact@mialls.com.au>
Betreff: Re: Anfrage Merkel-Kontaktformular EN: "500ne ae 140" Waffennummer: "A750072"

Hello this is an update on my 500ne. Mialls gun shop said it is not the correct part to stop the double firing of this gun. It has been over 18 months now without this gun. I am now using another double for my guiding work . I am very tired of this problem I wont wait any longer and request a refund of purchase price for the gun thank you. This rifle double fired on a charging buffalo while I was guiding a client. Someone could have been killed. I do not think this problem will be rectified to restore my confidence in the firearm.
Lyle sirett.
Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhone

I’m still getting over the shock that you actually got a reply of any kind from Merkel

 

[steve white]

Good luck remembering, in the heat of a charge, which trigger you had planned on pulling! Especially if you are already accustomed to doing it a different way on another rifle or shotgun. Things would possibly be a lot simpler if all your guns had the same double triggers, safeties, stock measurements, et al. Training two (or more) different ways doubtless complicates things. It's too bad we often discover real preferences AFTER we have already paid a great deal for a gun we are now unhappy with.
In those many years when the only shotgun I reached for was my facile princeps Greener, everything was so engrained that switching triggers for the farther choked shots was automatic. BUT, I was used to using it so exclusively that it became second nature. This does not apply in the same way to rifles, since they are not choked, but does (to hopefully a lesser extent) affect thermics which academically affects regulation of shots due to one barrel heating up/flexing before the other.
Choices of single vs double trigger, position of safety (I hated the position of the Greener safety) etc. must be decided so that they are as compatible as possible with not only your preference for the double rifle, but perhaps the muscle memory of your cumulative stable of firearms? OTOH if a person can train to be a pistol shot, he out to be able to train for anything IMO.
Best advice--train like Karamojo Bell, with the rifle constantly dry aimed/fired.

LOL, if you really want to mess with your brain, have at least one gun be equipped with a release trigger to stop flinching!

 

[steve white]

I’ve always been curious on the right barrel/forward trigger being the more open choke. We assume that this is due to a design consideration for rough shooting/flushing birds. However, the SxS design was perfected in the golden age of driven shooting, which would seem to indicate a need for quite the opposite.

And some doubles were set up that way.

 

[Lyleedward]

I’m still getting over the shock that you actually got a reply of any kind from Merkel

It’s at 19 months now at Gunshop waiting repairs. This was after 12 months of emails. Useless I wish I had only bought my 470 Krieghoff. Which I bought after this problem developed with the Merkel.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

It’s at 19 months now at Gunshop waiting repairs. This was after 12 months of emails. Useless I wish I had only bought my 470 Krieghoff. Which I bought after this problem developed with the Merkel.

Have you considered sending it somewhere else?

 

[WarEagle03]

Update: I went to the range today. Loaded up with a live load in right barrel, a primer only blank in the left. Pulled front trigger, fired the round without a primer strike in the left. Good deal... Switched it and reloaded, left barrel (rear trigger) first... Yup, primer strike in right when the left fired. Loaded both barrels the rest of the day and shot front to back (right to left) and never had any further issues. Shot over two boxes today and no doubles! Thank you guys for sparing me having to pay someone to tell me I'm an idiot... I appreciate everyone participating in the conversation, hope it helps someone else in the future.